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Thread: Timing help

  1. #1
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    Timing help

    Since my engine needs proper timing before I can tackle the EZ EFI issue I went and bought a TDC tool, and a TDC stop tool.
    Put the TDC tool in the #1 spark plug hole and turned the crank to TDC on compression.

    TDC tool.jpg

    Marked the extension at TDC. Removed the tool and put in the TDC stop tool. Adjusted till it could go no more (assuming that's hitting the top of the piston).
    This is where the timing pointer ended up vs the #1 plug on the distributor.

    TDC distributor.jpg

    Then cranked the engine backwards till it would hit the stopper again. It goes passed the previous mark and does not hit the stop.

    TDC distributor after.jpg


    Then when I remove the stopper and compare to the marks I made on the TDC tool they are lined up in length


    TDC and stop tool.JPG

    What am I missing?

    Thanks,

    John
    Last edited by John Dol; 06-07-2019 at 08:50 AM.
    Finished the "My Coupe, my way" project.

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    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Sniper EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  2. #2
    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
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    Use the piston stop to check & adjust your zero (TDC) pointer (the one that points to the zero mark on the damper). From there you set your ignition timing.
    Dart Little M 406" SBC 800 HP N/A & 1,100 HP on nitrous, 2-spd Powerglide with trans brake, 6,000 RPM stall converter, narrowed Moser 88 3.90:1 spool with 35-spline gun-drilled axles & Torino bearings, custom parallel four-link, custom tube chassis & roll cage NHRA certified for 8.5-sec (only two FFR Hot Rods have this cert).

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    Senior Member Big Blocker's Avatar
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    John,
    I'm a little confused with "It goes passed the previous mark and does not hit the stop.". I can understand it going past the original mark on your dizzy bur not hitting the stop concerns me a bit. IF the stop is placed in the spark plug hole and the engine is rotated until it hits it with a normal rotation attempt, you should be able to reverse the rotation and hit the stop coming up the back way. That should give you two marks that you will "split-the'difference" to find TDC. Using your dizzy for a reference is questionable because it has some amount of BTDC dialed in from before you started this process. You should be referencing everything to the crank pulley and its pointer.

    It doesn't matter if your piston comes all the way to the top of the cylinder or not, as long as it hits the stop at the same place in both directions - marking on the crank damper and then splitting that measurement in two to find their center. That will be TDC.

    Once you know with some amount of certainty where TDC is for your engine, then, and only then can you set timing in relation to the crank and cam timing.

    Here is a pretty good Youtube video showing the process --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlMBIULoFDc even if he does say: "all Ford motors turn clockwise" (2:40 - 2:45) - pay no attention to that statement, he's obviously not an "OLD GUY", still pulls valve covers to find compression stroke.

    HTH

    Doc
    Last edited by Big Blocker; 06-06-2019 at 08:32 PM.
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  6. #4
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Blocker View Post
    John,
    I'm a little confused with "It goes passed the previous mark and does not hit the stop.". I can understand it going past the original mark on your dizzy bur not hitting the stop concerns me a bit. IF the stop is placed in the spark plug hole and the engine is rotated until it hits it with a normal rotation attempt, you should be able to reverse the rotation and hit the stop coming up the back way. That should give you two marks that you will "split-the'difference" to find TDC. Using your dizzy for a reference is questionable because it has some amount of BTDC dialed in from before you started this process. You should be referencing everything to the crank pulley and its pointer.

    It doesn't matter if your piston comes all the way to the top of the cylinder or not, as long as it hits the stop at the same place in both directions - marking on the crank damper and then splitting that measurement in two to find their center. That will be TDC.

    Once you know with some amount of certainty where TDC is for your engine, then, and only then can you set timing in relation to the crank and cam timing.

    Here is a pretty good Youtube video showing the process --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlMBIULoFDc even if he does say: "all Ford motors turn clockwise" (2:40 - 2:45) - pay no attention to that statement, he's obviously not an "OLD GUY", still pulls valve covers to find compression stroke.

    HTH

    Doc
    That’s why I asked if I was missing something. That is the exact video I watched and bought the tools. I’m not understanding why I’m not hitting the stop in the reverse direction.
    Trying to get the two marks to split the difference but without hitting the stop that’s impossible.
    Should only have to make one rotation on the distributor back correct?

    Thanks,

    John
    Finished the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Sniper EFI
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  7. #5
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAZ View Post
    Use the piston stop to check & adjust your zero (TDC) pointer (the one that points to the zero mark on the damper). From there you set your ignition timing.

    Don’t have a zero mark on my damper. Have to get true dead center with the before mentioned method to determine true 0

    Thank you,

    John
    Finished the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Sniper EFI
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  8. #6
    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
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    Appears you need a longer piston stop.
    Dart Little M 406" SBC 800 HP N/A & 1,100 HP on nitrous, 2-spd Powerglide with trans brake, 6,000 RPM stall converter, narrowed Moser 88 3.90:1 spool with 35-spline gun-drilled axles & Torino bearings, custom parallel four-link, custom tube chassis & roll cage NHRA certified for 8.5-sec (only two FFR Hot Rods have this cert).

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  10. #7
    Senior Member RickP's Avatar
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    TDC and stop tool.JPG

    What am I missing?



    John[/QUOTE]

    John, I agree with Naz's advise. Based on your one pic, your stop is about 1/2 inch too short give or take. Your doing everything right btw. And don't worry about where your mark is on the dizzy in relation to the #1 post at this point.


    RickP

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  12. #8
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    In the video the guy mentions an extended stop but it could not find it anywhere. But the pic shows the extension of the TDC tool and they are virtually the same. The stop is bottoming out at that point against the piston. So how come that does not work on the reverse?

    Thanks,

    John
    Last edited by John Dol; 06-07-2019 at 06:51 AM.
    Finished the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Sniper EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  13. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Dol View Post

    I’m not understanding why I’m not hitting the stop in the reverse direction.

    Trying to get the two marks to split the difference but without hitting the stop that’s impossible.

    Should only have to make one rotation on the distributor back correct?

    Thanks,

    John
    It's only 1/2 turn on the distributor - because the distributor (and cam) is half of crank speed - the piston reaches TDC on both the compression + exhaust strokes (720 degrees of rotation) - but the rotor is only going to line up with #1 spark plug terminal toward the end of the compression stroke (it will be 180 degrees out on TDC of exhaust stroke).


    Typically I get it close with a small screwdriver (in the spark plug hole) and then visually observe the piston end of travel through the spark plug hole with a flash light.

    Then mark (or confirm) that as TDC on the harmonic balancer / pointer.

    Which comes up twice for every single rotation of the distributor (TDC on #1 cylinder).


    Hope that helps, and I didn't just misunderstand your question...
    Last edited by mike223; 06-07-2019 at 07:42 AM.

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  15. #10
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike223 View Post
    It's only 1/2 turn on the distributor - because the distributor (and cam) is half of crank speed
    That makes total sense since you could get a false TDC if your not on the compression stroke.


    So in essence why can't I just use the TDC tool instead of the stopper to find the two marks?

    Thanks,

    John
    Finished the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Sniper EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  16. #11
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    [/QUOTE]your stop is about 1/2 inch too short give or take.[/QUOTE]

    That's what she said! Talk about being specific...
    Finished the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Sniper EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  17. #12
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    it sounds like you are trying to use the piston stop to set your distributor line up with number 1. That is not what you want to do. The piston stop is only used to determine true zero (TDC) at the crank balancer. If it hits in one direction, it has to hit in the other direction - can't be any other way. Once you determine true tdc "on the balancer" , then you can place the distributor so that the rotor is approaching #1. This will get you close enough to fire the engine, but the final timing must be set with timing light with the engine running. Hope this makes it clear.

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  19. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Dol View Post

    So in essence why can't I just use the TDC tool instead of the stopper to find the two marks?
    Exactly - as I said, I typically "eyeball it" with a flashlight through the spark plug hole.

    Actually I usually mark / check all that before the heads are on - but if I ever need a sanity check I'm not afraid to eyeball it.

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  21. #14
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sread View Post
    it sounds like you are trying to use the piston stop to set your distributor line up with number 1. That is not what you want to do. The piston stop is only used to determine true zero (TDC) at the crank balancer. If it hits in one direction, it has to hit in the other direction - can't be any other way. Once you determine true tdc "on the balancer" , then you can place the distributor so that the rotor is approaching #1. This will get you close enough to fire the engine, but the final timing must be set with timing light with the engine running. Hope this makes it clear.
    Yes that's exactly what I'm trying to do. I was just wondering if the TDC tool shows TDC you could make a mark there, then turn 180 degrees and make your second mark at full extension again.

    Not sure if the results would be any different then using the stop?

    Thank you,

    John
    Finished the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Sniper EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

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    The "ticky" thing here is that piston movement is very minute (adjective - not noun) at the top of stroke.

    There are a number of degrees of rotation up there with very little piston movement in either direction.

    So, catching it both ways with a piston stop and then marking the middle as TDC is the most "precision" measurement you can get.


    But if you're careful (attention to detail) you can eyeball it pretty effectively.

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  24. #16
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    If you are using the tdc tool , you are only "eye-balling" it. While that will get you close enough to start and run the engine it is not exact. Using the piston stop will allow you to get it exact. Use one or the other , not both. Remember when using the piston stop, be very gentle while rotating the engine - you don't want to bend anything. You really need to have all spark plugs removed to be able to rotate the engine easily also.

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    one more thing - you said you don't have a zero mark on your damper...that is not likely. you may not have a pointer, or it may not be where you think it should be but there should definitely be a zero mark on your damper as well as more marks on the BTDC side of zero. If you truly have no markings or no zero on your damper you may not have the correct damper for your engine

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  28. #18
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sread View Post
    one more thing - you said you don't have a zero mark on your damper...that is not likely. you may not have a pointer, or it may not be where you think it should be but there should definitely be a zero mark on your damper as well as more marks on the BTDC side of zero. If you truly have no markings or no zero on your damper you may not have the correct damper for your engine
    I have a march after market pulley kit. There is a notch in it but not in the spot where it needs to be. Hence the search for TDC.

    Thank you,

    John
    Finished the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Sniper EFI
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  29. #19
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    So I dove in to the McGyver box and made a longer stop from the stopper base and a bolt with the same thread. Topped it with the cap of a snow stake to protect the piston.

    Home made TDC tool.jpg

    Screwed it in and made contact with the stopper. This is where the distributor was at that point (I know it doesn't matter at this point but just as a reference).


    Home dade tdc tool TDC before.jpg

    Made the mark on the balancer and reversed the other way. This is where the distributor ended up at 180 degree.


    Home made tdc tool after.jpg

    Made the next mark on the balancer and removed the stop. Made contact!

    Home made tDC tool contact.jpg

    This is the spread of the two marks with a 180 degree turn

    Home made tdc tool marks balancer.jpg

    Is that spacing normal?

    Just want to make sure I'm not going down the wrong path before the next step.

    Thanks gents!

    John
    Finished the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Sniper EFI
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  30. #20
    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
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    John, take that piece of plastic off the end of your stop before the engine eats it and you have to remove a head. Also, be advised that having a SOLID stop is a must for accuracy and a plastic cap on the stopper is not a solid stop. If the stop wiggles at all it is not accurate.

    So repeat that process but with a solid stop. Depending on the angle of your plugs in relation to the vertical axis of the bore, you can adjust the length of the stop and influence the distance between the two marks. It's easier to measure a smaller gap between the two but not impossible with the distance you have. Remember, you are trying to minimize error when making your marks.

    Now forget even looking at the distributor -- not sure why you are so fixated on it as it has nothing to do with establishing a zero on your damper.
    Dart Little M 406" SBC 800 HP N/A & 1,100 HP on nitrous, 2-spd Powerglide with trans brake, 6,000 RPM stall converter, narrowed Moser 88 3.90:1 spool with 35-spline gun-drilled axles & Torino bearings, custom parallel four-link, custom tube chassis & roll cage NHRA certified for 8.5-sec (only two FFR Hot Rods have this cert).

    33 Hot Rod Super Pro Drag Racer Build: 33 HR NHRA Cert Roll Cage Build

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  32. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Dol View Post

    This is the spread of the two marks with a 180 degree turn

    Home made tdc tool marks balancer.jpg

    Is that spacing normal?

    Just want to make sure I'm not going down the wrong path before the next step.

    Thanks gents!

    John
    It's pretty normal for a longish piston stop.

    You could make the piston stop shorter to get a closer spacing (and then split that) - probably wouldn't be a bad idea.


    And yes, I agree with Naz - the plastic is a hazard, and it's not improving your repeatability.

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  34. #22
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAZ View Post
    John, take that piece of plastic off the end of your stop before the engine eats it and you have to remove a head. Also, be advised that having a SOLID stop is a must for accuracy and a plastic cap on the stopper is not a solid stop. If the stop wiggles at all it is not accurate.

    So repeat that process but with a solid stop. Depending on the angle of your plugs in relation to the vertical axis of the bore, you can adjust the length of the stop and influence the distance between the two marks. It's easier to measure a smaller gap between the two but not impossible with the distance you have. Remember, you are trying to minimize error when making your marks.

    Now forget even looking at the distributor -- not sure why you are so fixated on it as it has nothing to do with establishing a zero on your damper.
    Good advice! I’m learning this process and just want to give you guys as much info as possible to give me the right feedback. The original stop did not make contact on the reverse 180, it would just pass by so that’s why I made it longer.
    I will repeat without the rubber cap and split the difference. My thinking was I’m protecting the piston. And this is why I ask you guys the questions!

    Thanks,

    John
    Last edited by John Dol; 06-07-2019 at 05:44 PM.
    Finished the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Sniper EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  35. #23
    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
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    John, I think you're going to get it the third time around. Once you carefully make your two marks on the damper you'll need an accurate way to measure between them. I use a thin flexible machinist's scale like the photo below. I have them in 6" and 12" (and one that is 11 31/32" as I accidentally left it in my shear and cut the end off). But if you don't have one and a very careful you can use a strip of printer paper cut to the width of your damper and slightly longer than needed but it must have at least one square end. Simply align the square end with one of the marks and wrap the paper around the damper then carefully mark the paper where the second damper mark is. Carefully fold the paper in half and that's where you make your zero mark on the damper.

    You can purchase timing tapes for various sizes of dampers so you can have a OEM looking timing mark. But the tape has to be made for your diameter damper. Places like Summit Racing will carry these. After you have a zero (TDC mark) and a timing scale you can set your distributor rotor rough alignment and if you have old school ignition you can even static time the engine. This won't work with some of the newer ignitions like CD but if you do have the older ignition I can walk you through the process of static timing for first start.

    Scale.jpg
    Dart Little M 406" SBC 800 HP N/A & 1,100 HP on nitrous, 2-spd Powerglide with trans brake, 6,000 RPM stall converter, narrowed Moser 88 3.90:1 spool with 35-spline gun-drilled axles & Torino bearings, custom parallel four-link, custom tube chassis & roll cage NHRA certified for 8.5-sec (only two FFR Hot Rods have this cert).

    33 Hot Rod Super Pro Drag Racer Build: 33 HR NHRA Cert Roll Cage Build

  36. #24
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    Gents,

    I think we are getting there!

    So after taking the rubber piece off, scratching of the previously made marks, I repeated the process over again. Made new marks and used a flexible tape measure to find center

    IMG_3101.jpg

    Just to find out that the zero mark was right on. Oh well better to make sure
    Applied the tape that NAZ was referencing and looked at the distributor with the timing mark at 0

    IMG_3102.jpg

    IMG_3105.jpg

    IMG_3106.jpg

    Then set the distributor to the number one spark plug and the issue shows itself clearly, or so I think anyway. Or maybe its not as clear without getting the timing light on it

    IMG_3107.jpg

    IMG_3109.jpg

    So now is the time to get the timing light on it and get it to 10-14.

    You guys agree?

    Thanks,

    John
    Last edited by John Dol; 06-07-2019 at 05:11 PM.
    Finished the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Sniper EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  37. #25
    Senior Member Big Blocker's Avatar
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    Yes, I agree . . .

    Quote: "That makes total sense since you could get a false TDC if your not on the compression stroke.". Not true at all . . . in a four stroke engine the piston is at TDC twice, once at top of compression stroke (the position you need to find to set timing correctly) and once at the transition between exhaust and intake stroke. In all practicality, you could set the TDC 180° out of wack (<--highly accurate car guy phrase) and set the dizzy in place with the rotor pointing at the #6 position and be correct.

    FWIW John, I have made piston stops from old spark plugs with a 3" 1/4" bolt welded to the base - unless you have some very very deep valve relief pockets, that should be perfect. There is no way a stop can be "hit in one direction and NOT be hit in the other - not physically possible. If you are using a spring loaded tool and the piston has moved the plunger to it's TDC position, good chance that you are not moving it any farther in the other rotation of the crank, and then assuming that it never hit it.

    I'm absolutely in agreement with the others with losing the plastic cap, don't need to be pulling manifolds and heads to get it out when it falls into the cylinder - unless you are a surgeon and have a bore scope to help with the retrieval thru the spark plug hole.

    Doc
    Last edited by Big Blocker; 06-07-2019 at 05:26 PM.
    FFR3712K (MKII) in Lost Wages Nevada.
    5.0 w/tubular GT-40 EFI, E303 cam, Custom 4 into 4 headers, T5, 3-Link 3.73 rear. Full F5 tubular suspension. Drop Butt mod, Dash forward mod, custom foot box air vents, custom turn signal system. 13" PBR brakes, Fiero E-Brake mod, Flaming River 18:1 rack w/ F5 bump steer kit on Breeze bushings. 17" Chrome Cobra "R's" w/ 275 fronts and 315 rears. MKIV seats. FORD Royal Blue w/ Arctic White stripes.

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  39. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Dol View Post

    Just to find out that the zero mark was right on.
    OMG, lol.... This is where you should have "eyeballed" it and called it "good".

    But better safe than sorry.


    Quote Originally Posted by John Dol View Post

    Or maybe its not as clear without getting the timing light on it

    Nothing much is clear until you get the timing light on it.

    Burned some of the ceramic coating on my headers due to "eyeballing" and going for a nice conservative (retarded) initial first start timing.

    By the time I looked it over for leaks + got the timing light on it the headers were "too hot".


    So, what distributor, what have you done to it as far as centrifugal advance springs, do you have vacuum advance, etc?

    I may be in a good position to measure exactly where you need to start from TDC with the right MSD distributor.

    But there are a lot of details to account for.


    (yes - you may be a tooth or three off on distributor position)

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  41. #27
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    So here's my distributor.

    Distributor.jpg

    As I understand it I have to loosen the distributor hold down clamp, remove the vacuum hose, then start the engine and put the light on the timing pointer. Twist the distributor accordingly to get to 10-14 then tightening up the hold down clamp. Finish by putting the vacuum hose back on.

    Am I missing anything?


    Thanks,


    John
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  42. #28
    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
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    From the photos it appears this is a donor engine and if it has not been modified you could reference an OEM base timing spec for the year / model engine. Is that what your 10-14 is? If so, pick a number between 10-14 (maybe 12??) and use the procedure you detailed. But read the post again from mike223 because if you start without enough lead you'll heat up the exhaust manifolds quicker than you can twist the distributor. Also, one trick to remember which way to turn the distributor is to look at the vacuum nipple on the vacuum can. The nipple points the direction to advance the timing. It also points the opposite direction that the rotor turns.
    Dart Little M 406" SBC 800 HP N/A & 1,100 HP on nitrous, 2-spd Powerglide with trans brake, 6,000 RPM stall converter, narrowed Moser 88 3.90:1 spool with 35-spline gun-drilled axles & Torino bearings, custom parallel four-link, custom tube chassis & roll cage NHRA certified for 8.5-sec (only two FFR Hot Rods have this cert).

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  44. #29
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    Its a donor engine but has an Edelbrock top end kit on it
    Yeah good point about overheating although when it runs it doesn't seem the case.(at least they don't glow red hot)
    Finished the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Sniper EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Dol View Post

    Am I missing anything?
    Short answer - yes.

    Excuse me while I go do some measuring and write up a bunch of the (important) variables.

  46. #31
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    Ok, let's start here.

    If you want the engine to run right...

    At WOT (where you have no vacuum - and therefore no vacuum advance) - you need about 30~35 degrees total advance, all in by 2200 to 3600 rpm. (never to exceed ~38 degrees at WOT or = detonation / meltdown). This is handled by "centrifugal advance" built into *most* distributors, and it is variable (in performance distributors) using different springs + end of travel stops.

    When the throttle is closed, or only partially open - you can stand a bit more advance. This is the reason for vacuum advance - generally you can look for 4~15 degrees in high vacuum / low engine load situations. In most performance distributors, this range is adjustable using an allen wrench through the distributor vacuum port. Most OEM (and other "cheap") distributors have limited, or "no" adjustment regarding the range of vacuum advance (and I have no idea what yours is).



    I'm running a MSD distributor, mechanical (centrifugal) advance only, with 18~20 degrees added (above idle) by the centrifugal advance (alone), "all in" by ~2500 rpm.


    I timed it for about 34~35 degrees total advance (above 2600 rpm).


    Haven't had a timing light on it since (2-3 years), because it runs "to suit me" - "fastest street car you've ever been in?" is my standard question - and the answer has always been "nothing else even comes close".


    So - I'm going to tell you to put the crank at TDC, plug (do not use) the vacuum advance, turn (or pull + slip teeth as necessary)the distributor to get 15~20 percent past #1 cylinder spark plug terminal (headed for the next terminal, #3 in my case), and get the timing light on it ASAP. The distributor turns counter clockwise as the engine runs (you probably already figured that out).


    But I can't possibly tell you where to time it at idle - and especially not with vacuum advance active.


    I'll let others coach you on what to do / what to look for once you plug the vacuum advance in.

    (others please feel free to chime in - I'm struggling a little here, with things I'm not expert on - vacuum advance in particular)

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  48. #32
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    Here's my distributor.

    MSD ready to run PN8352

    Distributor pamflet.jpg

    https://www.holley.com/products/igni...ors/parts/8352

    John
    Finished the "My Coupe, my way" project.

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    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Sniper EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

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    Ok, I'm going to have to defer to someone who has more experience successfully implementing vacuum advance.

    I know how to make it run well with ~20 degrees centrifugal thrown in by 2600rpm.

    Your distributor appears to have 16 degrees of vacuum advance that is either full range, or locked out.

    You could probably work 4-8 degrees of vacuum advance on top of my 20 degrees in by 2600rpm centrifugal - but I think 16 degrees (of additional vacuum advance) is going to cause you (catastrophic engine) problems with that plan.


    You can probably work the 16 degrees of vacuum advance in with the heavier springs bringing the centrifugal fully in at a higher rpm than I use - but I don't know anything specific about making that work right.


    I'm certain that if you end up with too much engine load combined with too much timing advance it will blow it up (catastrophic failure).

    Proceed with caution + advice.


    Here is the instruction sheet for that distributor if anyone wants to advise:

    https://documents.holley.com/8352.pdf



    P.S. This is why they always send them out with the heavy springs on the centrifugal - so you have to work at it to blow it up...
    Last edited by mike223; 06-08-2019 at 11:59 AM. Reason: P.S.

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  51. #34
    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
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    John, from your initial post it would appear you are tacking ignition timing in preparation to troubleshoot an EFI issue. If that's the case, I'd suggest you get the timing curve close enough and move on to the EFI issue. By close enough I mean using a proven curve such as the OEM or what Mike has provided. Don't get wrapped around the axle on the perfect timing curve at this point.

    The vacuum advance curve on the MSD will likely be close enough too. A vacuum advance is a load sensing device that adjusts the ignition timing based on load conditions the engine is seeing. There are advantages to using a vacuum advance on a street car but it is not a necessary item so if you encounter signs of detonation with the vacuum advance and don't want to deal with that at this time you can simply disconnect it until you have resolved any EFI issues. Ignition timing and AFR go hand in hand making it easy to get bogged down troubleshooting competing issues.

    The whole idea behind ignition advance is to achieve peak pressure at the sweet spot (~14-deg ATDC). To achieve this we lead the ignition so that it starts the combustion process early enough that peak pressure is reached at 14-deg ATDC. The amount of lead is influenced by many factors such as RPM, load, density altitude, AFR, fuel, dynamic compression ratio, carb size, combustion chamber, and several more. So there is no one size fits all timing curve if you're trying to maximize performance. The OEM has done extensive testing to arrive at the best timing curve for a particular combination. Deviate from the OEM combination by adding something as simple as a larger or smaller carb and that "best" curve may also change. For racers we start with a timing curve based on modeling programs and tweak it from there to gain the best performance. When we tune for performance even the water grains in the air may have us changing our base lead by 1-deg.

    For a street car that's a lot of work to achieve results that are of dubious value. Stick with something that has proven to work well enough and as long as you don't see signs of detonation you're probably good enough. Detonation can be detected by a pinging noise or by peppering on the plug insulator. Detonation is a bad thing and the peppering you see on the plugs is aluminum from the pistons.
    Dart Little M 406" SBC 800 HP N/A & 1,100 HP on nitrous, 2-spd Powerglide with trans brake, 6,000 RPM stall converter, narrowed Moser 88 3.90:1 spool with 35-spline gun-drilled axles & Torino bearings, custom parallel four-link, custom tube chassis & roll cage NHRA certified for 8.5-sec (only two FFR Hot Rods have this cert).

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  53. #35
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    ok so based on those two responses, I'm going to put a timing light on it just to see where things are at. The engine ran before without blowing up so I feel safe enough there. Wish I knew what made it change. That would make this trouble shooting much easier!
    We are having family over this weekend so it will give me some time to think and go at it again on Tuesday. Will report back with findings.


    John
    Finished the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Sniper EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  54. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAZ View Post

    For a street car that's a lot of work to achieve results that are of dubious value.
    Amen!

    In short order - you have more than you can possibly hope to put down in a street car on (any) "street" tire.


    Best to figure out something "repeatable" + "reliable" that doesn't blow engines.


    Sorry I don't have anything like that which involves 16 degrees of vacuum advance.

  55. #37
    Tool Baron frankeeski's Avatar
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    John, You may have to "lock out" the computer for the EFI before changing timing. I've never dealt with the EZ EFI you're using but I know the stock Ford EEC has to be locked out by removing the spout connector and the Stinger system I use in my car actually has a lock out built into Tuner Studio for timing changes. I'd read through your instructions for the system you have and see if and how (if you need to) lock out the computer for timing changes. Also remember that you have to plug the vacuum line you pull from the distributor If not, you have an unregulated vacuum leak and you can't time around that.

    One more FYI, 1987-95 Ford Mustangs had 10* BTDC timing. Based on your's being a donor engine, I wouldn't add more than a degree or two to base timing.
    Frank
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