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5.0 HP upgrade input wanted.
Hi folks. I have a couple thousand miles more on the engine/car than what's in my sig, but here goes. I'm looking for your thoughts/input please.
WHAT I WANT:
~100 more HP over my 240hp at the crank.
WHAT I HAVE:
Stock 5.0.
Going to purchase a GT40 tubular intake and correct lower for the 302 (NOS) (Thanks again!!! you know who you are)
I don't like the looks of the 5.0 intake, even the looks of a TFS top end, and the tubular intake is the best looking. (IMO)
While I don't want to spend $1,600+ on heads, it looks like that is the route I would need to go. I don't want to change my headers, so the heads need to work with what I have.
Thinking of using an E303 cam and while it's a decades old cam grind, it seems it fits the intended use of the car which is performance street.
I'll upgrade to 24# injectors and 75mm MAF. I already have a 190lph fuel pump.
I've had a machine shop tell me anything over the stock 240hp would require changes to the bottom end which I find hard to believe.
I know there are lots of articles out there about adding HP to these 302s, but it seems to add ~100HP will end up costing many thousands by the time I'm done.
I'm definately using the GT40 tubular intake but beyond that, I'm open to suggestions from those of you that have been down this road before.
I'm not interested in nitros.
Thanks for any input!
Last edited by mburger; 06-14-2019 at 02:16 PM.
Mark
Mk1, Frame #1929 Complete restoration/upgrade. BP 347 with Edelbrock PF4 439/420. 4 link with coilovers. 8.8 3.55, 15” Halibrand, New beefed up T5 w/short throw shifter, Power 4 wheel disc brakes, Custom original style steering wheel, shaft and boss, Heat/AC, Heated seats, PPW wipers w/washers, Forte’s throttle linkage, RT trunk hoop mod, Pusher cooling fans, full LED lighting, custom headrests, 5 point seat belts with sub pass through, Speedhut GPS gauges, battery drop box in trunk, LED courtesy lights, Breeze trunk cubby kit.
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Not a waxer
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads (with the upgraded springs), their Stage 1 cam, 24# injectors and matching meter along with a larger throttle body. If the bottom end is sound it will be fine.
Jeff
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Senior Member
For what I've read here I know the knowledge base in this forum is amazing and so are these guys
http://sbftech.com
If you haven't join do so and ask away
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You need a blower. Most reliable and inexpensive HP you can buy. Get it all done in a week or two. When you mash the throttle, the rpm's will go up and you'll have your extra 100hp. But in normal driving and part throttle cruising, It will be like driving a normal car.
Turbos, I think, are better in some ways. But they're more expensive and more complicated.
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Senior Member
![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png)
Originally Posted by
Jeff Kleiner
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads (with the upgraded springs), their Stage 1 cam, 24# injectors and matching meter along with a larger throttle body. If the bottom end is sound it will be fine.
Jeff
Can't speak to the Trick Flow heads, I have AFR 185's, but I run the stage 2 cam and HIGHLY recommend it. It will pull from down low and not stop till it's at the rev limit. I would not use the E303, you will never get an extra 100 hp using that cam. Had one in the old engine, and while steerable, just never made the right power.
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Senior Member
I am running an almost stock 5.0 (302) in my MK-II; stock heads only port matched to the tubular GT-40 manifold (upper and lower). E-303 cam running 2° advanced, valve spring upgrade, custom 4-into-4 headers thru 18" glasspacks with 3" internal baffles. Nothing else done to motor for HP, getting 315 at the crank. If that's not enough for you, spend the money for some Aluminum heads with better breathing.
The "E" cam is exhaust heavy because it was designed for people that want to add HP with add-on's - Turbo(s), blower or NO2.
A word of advice, when you get the GT-40 lower, check to see if it's had the oil baffle mod to the larger one, early models with the smaller one caused the engine to burn excessive oil due to the oil in the lifter valley flooding the PCV at the rear.
That baffle should still be available thru FORD.
FFR3712K (MKII) in Lost Wages Nevada.
5.0 w/tubular GT-40 EFI, E303 cam, Custom 4 into 4 headers, T5, 3-Link 3.73 rear. Full F5 tubular suspension. Drop Butt mod, Dash forward mod, custom foot box air vents, custom turn signal system. 13" PBR brakes, Fiero E-Brake mod, Flaming River 18:1 rack w/ F5 bump steer kit on Breeze bushings. 17" Chrome Cobra "R's" w/ 275 fronts and 315 rears. MKIV seats. FORD Royal Blue w/ Arctic White stripes.
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What rear do you have?
A 3.45 is a big improvement if you are currently running a 3.08.
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png)
Originally Posted by
Jeff Kleiner
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads (with the upgraded springs), their Stage 1 cam, 24# injectors and matching meter along with a larger throttle body. If the bottom end is sound it will be fine.
Jeff
Jeff,
What meter works with the 24lb injectors?
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png)
Originally Posted by
davekp
Jeff,
What meter works with the 24lb injectors?
I know you asked Jeff, but... almost anyone that makes a meter can calibrate it for different injectors. Look at websites. Pro-M has, over the years, been one of the best as far as quality, reliability and consistency.
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Not a waxer
![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png)
Originally Posted by
davekp
Jeff,
What meter works with the 24lb injectors?
DAve,
Unless the ECU is flashed or has a piggyback you need to use a meter specifically calibrated to match the injectors. I seem to recall that you went to 24s when you changed heads, etc, right? Didn't you also install a calibrated meter at the same time?
Jeff
Jeff
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Senior Member
How does a FiTech or Holley Sniper compare $wise to what you are thinking of? Sure would look more old school.
FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png)
Originally Posted by
Jeff Kleiner
DAve,
Unless the ECU is flashed or has a piggyback you need to use a meter specifically calibrated to match the injectors. I seem to recall that you went to 24s when you changed heads, etc, right? Didn't you also install a calibrated meter at the same time?
Jeff
Jeff
Jeff,
I retained the 19lb injectors, but installed a '94/95 MAF sensor. I read somewhere that was the thing to do. Was that wrong?
Car runs fine with an Explorer intake and 65mm throttle body.
I have a set of 24lb injectors, just wondering if the 94/95 MAF would work with them or should I just leave well enough alone.
Thanks!
Dave
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Not a waxer
![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png)
Originally Posted by
davekp
Jeff,
I retained the 19lb injectors, but installed a '94/95 MAF sensor. I read somewhere that was the thing to do. Was that wrong?
Car runs fine with an Explorer intake and 65mm throttle body.
I have a set of 24lb injectors, just wondering if the 94/95 MAF would work with them or should I just leave well enough alone.
Thanks!
Dave
OK, I thought you had changed to larger injectors when you made that intake swap.. 24# injectors with a '94/'95 meter calibrated for 19s will run poorly and be way rich which the ECU will not be able to compensate for.
Jeff
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Senior Member
![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png)
Originally Posted by
Big Blocker
I am running an almost stock 5.0 (302) in my MK-II; stock heads only port matched to the tubular GT-40 manifold (upper and lower). E-303 cam running 2° advanced, valve spring upgrade, custom 4-into-4 headers thru 18" glasspacks with 3" internal baffles. Nothing else done to motor for HP, getting 315 at the crank. If that's not enough for you, spend the money for some Aluminum heads with better breathing.
The "E" cam is exhaust heavy because it was designed for people that want to add HP with add-on's - Turbo(s), blower or NO2.
A word of advice, when you get the GT-40 lower, check to see if it's had the oil baffle mod to the larger one, early models with the smaller one caused the engine to burn excessive oil due to the oil in the lifter valley flooding the PCV at the rear.
That baffle should still be available thru FORD.
Not sure what you mean by "exhaust heavy", the E cam has the same duration and lift for both intake and exhaust. That's one of the reasons the Trick Flow cam out performs it, the exhaust has both more duration and lift.
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Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Likes
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Thanks everyone for your great input.
Jeff - Thank you. I'll check out those heads and cam. The TF heads look to be less expensive than others as well.
Jetfuel - Thanks, I'll peruse that site.
Bob - While blowers are very cool, I don't want that sticking out of the front of the car. Agree on the turbos!
Rich - Are you using the AFR 185s with stock pistons? I was looking at the AFR 185 heads but saw in their catalog they are not compatible with OEM pistons.
Big Blocker - Thanks for that info. I would need to check. They are still in Cobra Dude's garage. ![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.png)
Dave - I'm running 3:55 Also, sites like LMR.com have meters pre-calibrated for specific injectors.
Craig - I do like the old school look of a carbureted engine. I figured a different EFI system alone wouldn't increase HP without a cam and heads so I figured I'd not mess too much with my existing wiring/ECU and try to keep things as simple (read cost effective) as possible.
Mark
Mk1, Frame #1929 Complete restoration/upgrade. BP 347 with Edelbrock PF4 439/420. 4 link with coilovers. 8.8 3.55, 15” Halibrand, New beefed up T5 w/short throw shifter, Power 4 wheel disc brakes, Custom original style steering wheel, shaft and boss, Heat/AC, Heated seats, PPW wipers w/washers, Forte’s throttle linkage, RT trunk hoop mod, Pusher cooling fans, full LED lighting, custom headrests, 5 point seat belts with sub pass through, Speedhut GPS gauges, battery drop box in trunk, LED courtesy lights, Breeze trunk cubby kit.
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Senior Member
The AFR heads should be compatible with stock pistons, I'm using forged pistons, no issues. The Trick Flow wedge heads, may need different pistons.
From Trick Flows website:
Notes:
Designed for hydraulic roller camshafts. Trick Flow twisted wedge pistons are required for use with these heads to allow for piston to valve clearance with camshafts over .550 in. lift. Valve cover rail is raised .350 in. over stock.,
Last edited by rich grsc; 06-14-2019 at 09:51 AM.
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The Stage 1 cam has .499/.510 lift so stock pistons SHOULD be ok but apparently you can’t believe everything you read even in the manufacturers literature. You are using forged pistons but are they stock OEM?
Mark
Mk1, Frame #1929 Complete restoration/upgrade. BP 347 with Edelbrock PF4 439/420. 4 link with coilovers. 8.8 3.55, 15” Halibrand, New beefed up T5 w/short throw shifter, Power 4 wheel disc brakes, Custom original style steering wheel, shaft and boss, Heat/AC, Heated seats, PPW wipers w/washers, Forte’s throttle linkage, RT trunk hoop mod, Pusher cooling fans, full LED lighting, custom headrests, 5 point seat belts with sub pass through, Speedhut GPS gauges, battery drop box in trunk, LED courtesy lights, Breeze trunk cubby kit.
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Senior Member
Not OEM, but higher compression, close to 10.1. It doesn't say OEM piston won't work, only that '86 engines may need valve clearance.
http://fordstrokers.com/induction/af...cylinder-heads
I went back and forth over which heads to use. Both are good choices, I just liked the AFR's a little better and knew I wouldn't have valve clearance issues.
Last edited by rich grsc; 06-14-2019 at 12:18 PM.
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Unfortunately its kind of expensive to upgrade NA 5.0L engines. I installed the Trick Flow street heat package many years ago on my '87 fox body mustang. Cam, Aluminum heads, Upper/lower intake, 24lb injectors, 65mm mass airflow conversion, longtube headers and custom tune netted 300rwhp & 300rwtq on a mustang dyno. Everything else on the engine is stock. No issues with the bottom end after several thousand miles. I think Aluminum heads are worth it unless you feel like porting and polishing the cast iron heads to save $$$
https://lmr.com/item/TFS-K514350370/...UaApYKEALw_wcB
MK IV Roadster-Delivered Nov '18
Complete Kit, Gen2 Coyote, TKO 600, 2015 IRS, FFR brakes, FFR power steering, Full length headers
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Thanks Brian. I was looking at that at LMR and at Summit. I just really like the looks of the GT40 tubular intake. I'll likely piece the rest of it together with the heads/cam combo Jeff mentioned and add timing set, roller rockers/lifters etc..
Rich, the AFR 185 are not compatible with OEM pistons according to page 37 of their product catalog. The AFR 165 is the only AFR head that works with the stock piston valve relief. See page 36.
https://www.airflowresearch.com/content/catalog.pdf
Also, I just got off the phone with AFR Tech Support. They confirmed the 165cc is the only head compatible with stock pistons. Perhaps they changed their product over the years.
Mark
Mk1, Frame #1929 Complete restoration/upgrade. BP 347 with Edelbrock PF4 439/420. 4 link with coilovers. 8.8 3.55, 15” Halibrand, New beefed up T5 w/short throw shifter, Power 4 wheel disc brakes, Custom original style steering wheel, shaft and boss, Heat/AC, Heated seats, PPW wipers w/washers, Forte’s throttle linkage, RT trunk hoop mod, Pusher cooling fans, full LED lighting, custom headrests, 5 point seat belts with sub pass through, Speedhut GPS gauges, battery drop box in trunk, LED courtesy lights, Breeze trunk cubby kit.
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png)
Originally Posted by
mburger
Thanks everyone for your great input.
Bob - While blowers are very cool, I don't want that sticking out of the front of the car. Agree on the turbos!
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And who does? On our cars, it just doesn't look good.
![](https://i.imgur.com/mgtrJan.jpg)
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Oooh! I like that! More info please.
Mark
Mk1, Frame #1929 Complete restoration/upgrade. BP 347 with Edelbrock PF4 439/420. 4 link with coilovers. 8.8 3.55, 15” Halibrand, New beefed up T5 w/short throw shifter, Power 4 wheel disc brakes, Custom original style steering wheel, shaft and boss, Heat/AC, Heated seats, PPW wipers w/washers, Forte’s throttle linkage, RT trunk hoop mod, Pusher cooling fans, full LED lighting, custom headrests, 5 point seat belts with sub pass through, Speedhut GPS gauges, battery drop box in trunk, LED courtesy lights, Breeze trunk cubby kit.
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Maybe not as pretty but you could use a vortec blower! Im not trying to sell them, just putting out ideas
Mk3.1 347 AFR 205cc Heads A9L EFI siemens deca 60lb injectors MSD 6AL ignition Vortech V-3 3 Link PS/PB
-- If you can’t fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem ! —
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“My 5.0 is considerably different than your 5.0.“
Yes. Yes it is.
Awesome ride. Thanks for the additional info.
Mark
Mk1, Frame #1929 Complete restoration/upgrade. BP 347 with Edelbrock PF4 439/420. 4 link with coilovers. 8.8 3.55, 15” Halibrand, New beefed up T5 w/short throw shifter, Power 4 wheel disc brakes, Custom original style steering wheel, shaft and boss, Heat/AC, Heated seats, PPW wipers w/washers, Forte’s throttle linkage, RT trunk hoop mod, Pusher cooling fans, full LED lighting, custom headrests, 5 point seat belts with sub pass through, Speedhut GPS gauges, battery drop box in trunk, LED courtesy lights, Breeze trunk cubby kit.
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Senior Member
rich grsc, (after re-checking current info) I stand corrected, the E-303 cam is split on duration and lift . . . 17 years ago, when I decided on that cam for my 5.0, I was told by an engine builder that that was the cam you wanted to run if you ever wanted to add turbo's or a supercharger. It was supposedly "exhaust weighted" by cutting the exhaust lobes 2° retarded while the intake lobes were 2° advanced. My cam was installed dead center, no advance or retard to its relationship to the crank.
Guess I've been running with wrong info all these years. But that being said, The car has performed perfectly for those 17 years, feels strong, pulls hard, so I guess, no complaints.
Thanks for bringing me up-to-speed.
Doc
FFR3712K (MKII) in Lost Wages Nevada.
5.0 w/tubular GT-40 EFI, E303 cam, Custom 4 into 4 headers, T5, 3-Link 3.73 rear. Full F5 tubular suspension. Drop Butt mod, Dash forward mod, custom foot box air vents, custom turn signal system. 13" PBR brakes, Fiero E-Brake mod, Flaming River 18:1 rack w/ F5 bump steer kit on Breeze bushings. 17" Chrome Cobra "R's" w/ 275 fronts and 315 rears. MKIV seats. FORD Royal Blue w/ Arctic White stripes.
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Senior Member
Doc, that's a good cam, one I used for years, but when I built a 331, I wanted more.
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Looks like I am a little late, but this is the route I went:
Stock bottom end 302, trickflow twisted wedge, B-cam (because I had it and didnt want to spend more money), 1.6 (stock size) roller rockers, and a 600 cfm Brawler carb (its a holley DP). I put down 338 at the rear wheels. My rear is a 3.31.
If you want 100 more hp, you either go heads and cam or a blower. My combination, because it is not a super aggressive cam is super drivable. When I built the motor, I was careful and made sure I had the appropriate quench, clearances, etc etc. I have the dyno sheet somehwere. I will post it
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Here it is. Runs like a banshee to 6k
IMG_2945.JPG
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png)
Originally Posted by
Jeff Kleiner
.... along with a larger throttle body. If the bottom end is sound it will be fine.
Jeff
Jeff, with the TFS TW heads, Stage 1 cam and GT40 tubular intake, #24 injectors and calibrated meter, what size throttle body would you recommend? 70mm or 75mm?
Mark
Mk1, Frame #1929 Complete restoration/upgrade. BP 347 with Edelbrock PF4 439/420. 4 link with coilovers. 8.8 3.55, 15” Halibrand, New beefed up T5 w/short throw shifter, Power 4 wheel disc brakes, Custom original style steering wheel, shaft and boss, Heat/AC, Heated seats, PPW wipers w/washers, Forte’s throttle linkage, RT trunk hoop mod, Pusher cooling fans, full LED lighting, custom headrests, 5 point seat belts with sub pass through, Speedhut GPS gauges, battery drop box in trunk, LED courtesy lights, Breeze trunk cubby kit.
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scottiec, I would be more than happy with those numbers you are showing. 100 more HP was just a ballpark number. For my driving style and skills, anything more than what you are achieving would be wasted/unused power.
Mark
Mk1, Frame #1929 Complete restoration/upgrade. BP 347 with Edelbrock PF4 439/420. 4 link with coilovers. 8.8 3.55, 15” Halibrand, New beefed up T5 w/short throw shifter, Power 4 wheel disc brakes, Custom original style steering wheel, shaft and boss, Heat/AC, Heated seats, PPW wipers w/washers, Forte’s throttle linkage, RT trunk hoop mod, Pusher cooling fans, full LED lighting, custom headrests, 5 point seat belts with sub pass through, Speedhut GPS gauges, battery drop box in trunk, LED courtesy lights, Breeze trunk cubby kit.
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What computer do have? (Eec). You can get injectors and a maf that is tuned to fool the eec, but you may want to look into just geting a tune for it!
Mk3.1 347 AFR 205cc Heads A9L EFI siemens deca 60lb injectors MSD 6AL ignition Vortech V-3 3 Link PS/PB
-- If you can’t fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem ! —
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Not a waxer
![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png)
Originally Posted by
mburger
Jeff, with the TFS TW heads, Stage 1 cam and GT40 tubular intake, #24 injectors and calibrated meter, what size throttle body would you recommend? 70mm or 75mm?
My own car with a Trick Flow intake has a 70.
Jeff
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Thanks Jeff!
Just Puttering, I have the original donor A9L. (with fresh capacitors). With my limited knowledge of available performance chips/piggybacks, I think they just play with timing and the only way to achieve the power gains I’m looking for is to get more fuel and air in and out of the cylinders.
Everyone once again has given me great ideas. I’m going to do a compression test and if that looks good, I’ve decided to get the TW heads, Stage 1 cam, 24# injectors, calibrated meter, throttle body and I just picked up the intake yesterday.
Mark
Mk1, Frame #1929 Complete restoration/upgrade. BP 347 with Edelbrock PF4 439/420. 4 link with coilovers. 8.8 3.55, 15” Halibrand, New beefed up T5 w/short throw shifter, Power 4 wheel disc brakes, Custom original style steering wheel, shaft and boss, Heat/AC, Heated seats, PPW wipers w/washers, Forte’s throttle linkage, RT trunk hoop mod, Pusher cooling fans, full LED lighting, custom headrests, 5 point seat belts with sub pass through, Speedhut GPS gauges, battery drop box in trunk, LED courtesy lights, Breeze trunk cubby kit.
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For reference, the card that you plug in to the eec gives the computer a complete tune. The tune on the computer is completely bypassed. You can turn off all the errors for not having the smog and etc on the car, remap the fuel tables, etc. it is not something for the faint of heart. There is an over whelming amount of data that can be changed.
From what i have read, i think you have a sold plan, i am really interested in how it turns out! Dont forget a few pictures, even if its just boring engine parts!!!
Mk3.1 347 AFR 205cc Heads A9L EFI siemens deca 60lb injectors MSD 6AL ignition Vortech V-3 3 Link PS/PB
-- If you can’t fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem ! —
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I'm currently running AFR street heads with 65mm throttle body, "E" cam, Trick Flow Track Heat intake, and 19lb injectors. Any benefit to a larger (70 or 75mm) throttle body, and/or 24 lb injectors?
For street use only.
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JP, thanks for the additional info. I'm hoping the setup I'm going with will run ok with my A9L. My tubular intake is shiny new so I'm ordering the polished EGR spacer and polished throttle body because it all sits on top of the engine and your eyes are drawn to it. May as well make it look pretty... I will definately take before and after pics and I'd like to get a before and after dyno.
I'm just collecting parts at this stage for this HP upgrade and my 5 lug/4 wheel disc brake conversion as well as changing the stock 4 link to coilovers.
I have everything needed for the 5 lug/4 disc conversion, working on the HP parts and the rear coilovers are still backordered from FFR.
This Fall/Winter 65 Cobra Dude and I will be busy. ![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.png)
Dave, if that was my engine, I would definately add a larger TB and mass air meter calibrated for 24# injectors but I'll defer to those here that know what they're doing.
Last edited by mburger; 06-16-2019 at 08:38 PM.
Mark
Mk1, Frame #1929 Complete restoration/upgrade. BP 347 with Edelbrock PF4 439/420. 4 link with coilovers. 8.8 3.55, 15” Halibrand, New beefed up T5 w/short throw shifter, Power 4 wheel disc brakes, Custom original style steering wheel, shaft and boss, Heat/AC, Heated seats, PPW wipers w/washers, Forte’s throttle linkage, RT trunk hoop mod, Pusher cooling fans, full LED lighting, custom headrests, 5 point seat belts with sub pass through, Speedhut GPS gauges, battery drop box in trunk, LED courtesy lights, Breeze trunk cubby kit.
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Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Likes
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