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Carb choice
Since I’m having issues with my EFI set up I’m pondering pulling it and going to a carb before it does damage to my engine.
I’m looking at the Edelbrock 600cfm 14063. It has an electric choke.
Will this support my 302 with top end kit properly? Should produce about 365HP
Thank you,
John
Last edited by John Dol; 06-15-2019 at 02:49 PM.
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Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
John,
May I suggest the AVS-2 650 since it has annular boosters?
I'm one of the few folks running an Edelbrock, but then again I'm one of the few running a Chevy Style Engine too.
The annular boosters are a major upgrade to the down-leg type on the earlier AVS models.
The cool thing about all of the AVS series is you can adjust when the secondaries come it.
The performer series is not adjustable and uses the old weighted flapper system.
Just know that you'll need to regulate the fuel pressure down to about 6-7 PSI.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-1906
https://youtu.be/3npwfIOdKPc
Good Luck From The Dark Dart Side!
Steve
Last edited by GoDadGo; 06-15-2019 at 03:36 PM.
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With all respect to my good friend Steve (GoDadGo) Edelbrock carbs don't get a lot of love on these cars on either forum. While some have been successful, many haven't. I say that from what others have said, not personal experience. On the other hand, Holley style carbs are the most frequent choice. Quickfuel is the brand I use. They are Holley clones, just in theory higher quality. As of a few years ago part of the Holley group. I've used two different SS-SERIES Quickfuel carbs. An SS-650 and an SS-750. Both double pumpers, with electric choke, and many including me choose the annular booster version. I've used two of them, and both worked perfectly after tuning. For your engine, I'd recommend this one: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/q...0-an/overview/. Good buddy in our local club took the EFI off his 302 (don't know if the same brand as yours) and used this exact carb as well. Loves it.
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Brawler. Basically mirroring what Edwardb said. It’s a budget Holley/quickfuel. Love mine.
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Originally Posted by
edwardb
With all respect to my good friend Steve (GoDadGo) Edelbrock carbs don't get a lot of love on these cars on either forum. While some have been successful, many haven't. I say that from what others have said, not personal experience. On the other hand, Holley style carbs are the most frequent choice. Quickfuel is the brand I use. They are Holley clones, just in theory higher quality. As of a few years ago part of the Holley group. I've used two different SS-SERIES Quickfuel carbs. An SS-650 and an SS-750. Both double pumpers, with electric choke, and many including me choose the annular booster version. I've used two of them, and both worked perfectly after tuning. For your engine, I'd recommend this one:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/q...0-an/overview/. Good buddy in our local club took the EFI off his 302 (don't know if the same brand as yours) and used this exact carb as well. Loves it.
Paul,
I don't see any vacuum ports on it, unless I'm missing them?
Thanks,
John
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Originally Posted by
John Dol
Paul,
I don't see any vacuum ports on it, unless I'm missing them?
Thanks,
John
It has 'em. Several. Both timed and un-timed. Vacuum advance, vacuum booster, whatever you need. They're there.
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Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
The big questions that needs to be asked and truly answered are:
1. Are you planning for the carburetor to be a permanent or temporary solution?
2. How capable are you at tuning the Holley Style Carburetors?
3. How capable are you at tuning the Edelbrock Carburetors?
Before you drop a chunk of money on any new fuel delivery system, decide if it is going to be a short or long term solution.
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So (302CI X 6000rpm x 85%) / 3456 = 446CFM
Is a 650 going to be too much? From what I read a carb that's too big is not good either.
Thanks,
John
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Senior Member
Originally Posted by
GoDadGo
The big questions that needs to be asked and truly answered are:
1. Are you planning for the carburetor to be a permanent or temporary solution?
2. How capable are you at tuning the Holley Style Carburetors?
3. How capable are you at tuning the Edelbrock Carburetors?
Before you drop a chunk of money on any new fuel delivery system, decide if it is going to be a short or long term solution.
Permanent, and have never done either (but willing to learn )
I just want to start driving the damn thing!!!
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Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
Originally Posted by
John Dol
Permanent, and have never done either (but willing to learn
)
John,
I just want to start driving the damn thing!!!
1. For the record, I stink at tuning Holley Style Carburetors so that is why I chose the Edelbrock.
2. Also for the record, Anything I Can Do Paul (Edwardb) Can Do Better!
3. Either are good choices but there are a lot more folks on this forum who know how to mess with the Holley Style Carbs compared to the Edelbrocks.
4. As for me, I love Quadrajets and can tune the heck out of them but it wouldn't fare well with a standard transmission, plus I'd have to run an adapter.
Good Luck!
Steve
Last edited by GoDadGo; 06-16-2019 at 09:02 AM.
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Have to agree with Paul and most everyone else. Quick Fuel carbs - There is no substitute!
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Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
Originally Posted by
John Dol
So (302CI X 6000rpm x 85%) / 3456 = 446CFM
Is a 650 going to be too much? From what I read a carb that's too big is not good either.
Thanks,
John
They do make a 500 CFM AVS and AVS-2.
https://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/1901/10002/-1
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Originally Posted by
GoDadGo
Also for the record, Anything I Can Do Paul (Edwardb) Can Do Better!
Good Luck!
Steve
You and the rest of us!!
Thanks for the input. The3 Edelbrock is about half the money, but its hard to argue the success rate of the Quick Fuel. Really liked the black though on the one I found.
John
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Seasoned Citizen
If you're going to be learning you should consider going with the 4150 Holley or a quality 4150 clone such as QFT. This is easily the most popular choice and there is a lot of support out there. Before you pull the trigger on a carb you should get a good book on how to tune Holley carbs so you know what to expect. All in all you may find it much less expensive to stick with EFI. If you think you're going to use a carb out of the box with nothing more than tweaking the idle mixture screws and setting the idle speed you may be disappointed in the results.
I have more invested in tools and change parts for Holley carbs than the cost of a typical self tuning EFI system. But I've been tuning on these for a half-century and for awhile this is how I made my living.
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https://www.summitracing.com/parts/q.../model/diamond
Here's a black version similar to what Paul recommended but it is not an AN. Is there a big difference in performance/usability?
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Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
Originally Posted by
John Dol
One plus regarding a Holley Style over the Edelbrock is you can face it rearward which will make your throttle cable Hap-Hap-Happy since it will make a U instead of an S.
You can't do that with the Edelbrock since the secondary jets are in the rear of the carb plus fuel could slosh out of the accelerator pump rod if mounted backwards.
Shelby had the Holley's facing rearward on the dual Holley four barrels on the big block cars.
Last edited by GoDadGo; 06-15-2019 at 06:33 PM.
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Originally Posted by
NAZ
If you're going to be learning you should consider going with the 4150 Holley or a quality 4150 clone such as QFT. This is easily the most popular choice and there is a lot of support out there. Before you pull the trigger on a carb you should get a good book on how to tune Holley carbs so you know what to expect. All in all you may find it much less expensive to stick with EFI. If you think you're going to use a carb out of the box with nothing more than tweaking the idle mixture screws and setting the idle speed you may be disappointed in the results.
I have more invested in tools and change parts for Holley carbs than the cost of a typical self tuning EFI system. But I've been tuning on these for a half-century and for awhile this is how I made my living.
So I'm guessing all the feed back on the websites about putting it on and running great is BS?
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"So I'm guessing all the feed back on the websites about putting it on and running great is BS? "
Sorry John, I don't know how to do the more formal quotes.
The only thing that is plug n play is a lightbulb.
But myself and others that I know have had decent luck with ProSystems. Holley based and tweeked for your application. https://prosystemsracing.com/index1.html
Jim
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Originally Posted by
John Dol
So (302CI X 6000rpm x 85%) / 3456 = 446CFM
Is a 650 going to be too much? From what I read a carb that's too big is not good either.
Thanks,
John
Ok here’s my 2˘.... even if you took out the 85% cubes x rpm / 3456 (which I learned from Vic Edelbrock Jr back in the 70’s, he left out the 85%) it’s still only 524 CFM. I worked in a speed shop for many years way back when and sold hundreds of carbs. Also worked on a WHOLE bunch of them too.(LOTS of dark side back then Steve lol) I had a wall full of jets, power valves, nozzles... etc etc etc at my disposal for Holley carbs. And jets and metering rods etc etc for Carters. Also a dyno. And that was long before Edelbrock started branding Carter’s AFB’s or AVS’s or anyone else copying Holley’s.
Probably sold 10-1 Holley over Carter? Why? Marketing... who didn’t want a Holley double pumper on their car besides Steve? Holley’s were/are a little more temperamental but a lot more tuneable than a Carter/now Edelbrock was. Bolt a Carter AFB on, proper metering rods etc and pretty much good to go. Both great carbs and you’ll hear great cases for both.
Do you need a 650? Probably not. Do you even need a double pumper (4150 series) ? You hardly ever see anyone saying anything about a vacuum secondary Holley (4160 series) What are you using your car for? Do you care about better mileage? You can tune those too. Before Blue Print Engines changed their website they showed a 600 vacuum secondary carb on their 347’s and making 415 horses. It’s just another possibility. Something more to consider, and definitely cheaper.
Are there any real right or wrong answers? Not really. Paul has been there done that... and I can never praise him enough for all his wisdom, ingenuity, brains and logic on all of his builds.... I would never argue with him about anything. Steve, well you know, DARKSIDE (LOL! all in fun Steve) and NAZ probably has a 1150 Holley dominator on his 283 Chevy that he twists to 18 grand. (Compliment NAZ, your a true hard core racer in my book) So anyway.... call blue print Monday. See what they use and why? Couldn’t hurt... I guess this was just a long way around to get you to check out a 4160 series Holley. More street friendly? Probably sold 10-1 of those over double pumpers too.
Just my 1˘ lol thanks for reading
Kurt
Oh ps.... I can’t believe HP is still making it. Search HP473 on amazon. Basic 4150/4160 book. $13....
NAZ and I probably know what’s in the $50 book like the back of our hands lol $13 will get you started.
Last edited by SSNK4US; 06-15-2019 at 10:12 PM.
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What kind of issues are you having with your EZ EFI? Before spending money on a new carb are you sure your issues are related to the EFI unit?
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Originally Posted by
brewha
What kind of issues are you having with your EZ EFI? Before spending money on a new carb are you sure your issues are related to the EFI unit?
I have to agree. Throwing parts at it with no idea of what the problem is/may be is not a solution. My 2 cents would be to put a call into Mark Dougherty and see what he would charge you to come out and diagnose your issue. That money would be well spent rather than aimlessly spending more money on parts that you don't know how to adjust and how to get running properly.
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John, if you go carb, Mike Forte put a QF680 on my 351w and it worked very well. All I did was attach it.
Kyle
Complete Kit pickup 09/05/2015, 351w, QF680, 3.55, 3-Link, 15" Halibrands with MT's, Painted Viking blue with Wimbledon white stripes on 03/15/2017. Sold in 08/2018 and totally regret it.
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(1) Yes, carbs need to be tuned. Almost always they will run out of the box. But mfg's typically have them calibrated rich. Safer that way. These instructions are what I followed: https://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-fac...ing-101-a.html. (2) A 650 will run great in a 302/306. I know the calculators show a bit smaller. But it can be tuned just fine. (3) Highly recommend staying away from vacuum secondaries for these cars. Been there done that. Had a Holley Street Avenger in my Mk3, based on the recommendation of a vendor on here, and never did get it to run well. After reading about many others having similar issues, partly fixed only with modifying the carb, replaced it with the Quickfuel double pumper and it was like I had a new and more powerful engine. If you're going to go carb, do it right. (4) I too have heard great things about Pro-Systems. Talked to them when I was going through carb issues. At least at that time, they didn't do any carbs with chokes.
Having said that, can't disagree with various comments that getting your carb set up properly may not be any less effort than getting an EFI properly installed, calibrated, etc. Carb isn't a magic bullet. But if the basic EFI system isn't well designed, isn't matched to your engine, isn't supported, or is just all around not performing like it's supposed to, you may never get it running right. That was the case with my buddy. Chased if for several seasons and just wanted a good running car. Switching to carb worked for him. But to be honest that was before some of the more recent throttle body EFI solutions were available, like FiTech, Holley Sniper, MSD Atomic, etc. Something I would probably look at more seriously if I were going that way today.
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The car ran always since mark D was over many moons ago to get it started. Since last fall it started acting up and it was running really rich and stalling. The last couple of days it does not want to start. Turns over but doesn't catch. As mentioned many others have had issues with these kind of systems and Mark actually recommended switching to a Fitech.
In my other thread people with way more engine experience said to be careful not to flood an engine repeatedly as it is bad for the engine. I don't want to get in a situation where I have to pull to engine and repair it just because the EFI system didn't work properly.
At the end of the day this is not commuter car, nor will it be driven in the winter so EFI is not a must. It also looks cleaner under the hood without all the wiring etc.
But it will also entail a bunch of rewiring, capping the return line, installing a new pressure regulator. Not exactly out of the box....
I'm 10 years in and looking to start driving my car rather then looking at it in the garage. If a carb can get me there now rather then later and I have to tinker for a bit to get it to run pretty then so be it.
John
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Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
My Edelbrock was running fat out of the box; however, when we changed the camshaft the conditions of the engine changed so much that the mixture was nearly perfect.
The smaller cam made a huge difference in drivability and made the carb happy because the vacuum signal changed. .. (Camshaft @ .050" New 236/242 vs Old 240/246)
I did adjust the accelerator pump to throw more fuel, the idle adjustment screws as you'd expect, the electric choke and the AVS flapper was tightened up a good bit.
What I like about the AVS is the ease of tuning plus the carb is a mechanical secondary set up and acts a lot like a Rockchester so it works for me.
The point; even my Beloved Edelbrock Needed A Little Adjustment, and I'd have needed to change the step up springs (Works Like A Power Valve In A Holley) to make it run right had I not changed the camshaft when I had to replace my block.
Engine Pull Video:
https://youtu.be/Vhbftk4AP4k
Engine Replacement Video:
https://youtu.be/-nVDzIjSjh8
I just hope that changing from Fuel Injection to a Carburetor is a little less expensive than changing an engine block!
Good Luck!
Last edited by GoDadGo; 06-16-2019 at 09:36 AM.
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Originally Posted by
John Dol
The car ran always since mark D was over many moons ago to get it started.
I'm 10 years in and looking to start driving my car rather then looking at it in the garage.
John
John, I think those two lines are key. It ran good after Mark dialed it in. And now, A LOT LATER, it doesn't. I haven't followed your entire build from the start. But the fact that you've said it's running dead rich, when it does run, leads me to stuck injectors. I've had injectors fail closed and wide open. When they fail closed the car will try to start and "not catch" as you're describing. And when they fail open, the car runs dead rich. I'll bet the fuel in your tank has been in there for a long time and old fuel in injectors is a bad thing. If it were me, and it's not, I would still get a hold of Mark after LCS and see if he has time to diagnose your fuel issue. And if you decide to pull and sell the EFI system, please, please, tell the person buying it what trouble you were having. I got a set of injectors here on the forum that were supposed to be good and I chased a fuel issue for months on my own car. Had I know the injectors were all clogged I could have had them cleaned when I received them and saved myself a ton of grief.
Frank
Last edited by i.e.427; 06-16-2019 at 05:45 PM.
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Seasoned Citizen
John, if your EFI ran good before I would expect it could be made to run good again. I know it can get frustrating dealing with difficult problems but before you spend more $$ on what may be a new problem, I suggest you get some professional help to troubleshoot your current EFI. If you don't have the knowledge, experience, and skill to tune a carburetor you could be trading one problem for another. Do a web search for shops that specialize in performance tuning or dyno tuning and talk to them about your symptoms, there's a good chance they can help.
I run a carb on my race car but prefer EFI for a street car. There are advantages to running EFI on a mild street car.
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X2 on the comments about if it ran well before... fix it and it should again. I’m sorry I didn’t say that too.
My rant was just giving you some things to think about if you changed over. Something to make you go hmmm.
Paul didn’t like the vacuum secondary... there’s definitely no discounting his experience with them. So you can probably scratch that one off the list. I was just throwing that out there but he has real life experience with one in our cars that wasn’t favorable.
I guess I’m done rambling for the night lol
Kurt
If everything seems under control, you’re just not going fast enough....
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The frustration triples when problems arise that are out of your league. As mentioned before the comments about not repeatedly flooding an engine have me concerned.
I will do some research to find local shops that can support an issue like this.
I suppose I could take out the injectors and take them to get cleaned, unless that is something I could do my self by soaking them?
Thanks guys, I'm sticking with it!
John
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rk0tKtiVic
Found this on line, seems easy enough to do.
Worth the work to eliminate that issue.
John
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Seasoned Citizen
John, the engine damage from running rich is not normally a concern for short duration operation. Carbon build up, oil dilution, fuel washing oil off the cylinders, accelerated oxidation -- these are longer term problems that usually manifest over time. It's unlikely you will hurt your engine running it just long enough to troubleshoot a mixture issue.
Good luck.
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good news, bad news
Cleaned all the spark plugs(again and still don't like the drivers side) and the o2 sensor.
Took off the injectors and cleaned them (none where stuck open).
Put everything back together and at least the engine started again.
It idled at about 800 RPM which was nice but only ran for a short while (not long enough to fully heat up) but long enough to take pictures of the 4 read out screens.
Bad news is I called Fast several times and they are not answering, so will have to try again tomorrow maybe.
In addition found they had a forum and did some interesting reading.
One mentioned a single plain manifold being better then a dual. Of course mine is a dual.
Vacuum advanced is supposed to be above the butterfly valves in the throttle body but it isn't. One suggestion was to tie it into the air cleaner port. Thoughts?
My fuel pressure on the gauge is disappearing quickly after the engine stops. Not sure if its supposed to stay up to 43 lbs. or not.
I have Autolite spark plugs and one mention was that the Autocraft would be better for this application. Not sure if that holds water or not?
Just spit balling things I've read to see your thoughts.
Thanks,
John
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Seasoned Citizen
Yes, single plane is better.
Not sure why it would matter to the FAST system if you even had a vacuum advance, it's not monitoring or controlling the advance. Ported vacuum advance is an emissions thing, before emissions systems vacuum was supplied by the manifold and some cars still run better this way.
Fuel pressure will drop after the pump stops running unless you have a check valve in the system.
For some wedge heads a projected tip may work better but as for one brand working good and another not -- chalk that up to brand loyalty. I've seen more engine builders recommend Autolite than any other brand. I've never even heard of Autocraft but then I tend to go with what I've used before.
Dart Little M 406" SBC 800 HP N/A & 1,100 HP on nitrous, 2-spd Powerglide with trans brake, 6,000 RPM stall converter, narrowed Moser 88 3.90:1 spool with 35-spline gun-drilled axles & Torino bearings, custom parallel four-link, custom tube chassis & roll cage NHRA certified for 8.5-sec (only two FFR Hot Rods have this cert).
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Call me crazy but if I have (lots of) fuel getting to the cyclinder, then I would be checking spark and I would start with the coil or electronic box supplying the juice. Have you checked power getting to spark plugs? I’ve seen coils work great when cold but lose it when they warm up. Do you have any logging that comes Fast EFI? That could help us help you if you could post some.
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Fast EZ overview.jpg
Here's some readings that I got form the hand held with the car off, 800 RPM and 2,300 RPM.
AF and ATF are a left to right scale. They are supposed to both be in the middle when running properly.
o2 % is too high as well.
Had to keep my foot on the throttle to keep the car running though. At 800RPM it stalled fairly quickly after letting of the gas.
I'm wondering about the spark plug wires too, and how well they make contact to the plugs.
Last edited by John Dol; 06-19-2019 at 09:04 AM.