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Thread: Replacing the fuel pump on my MKIII - Maybe a bad computer?

  1. #1
    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
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    Replacing the fuel pump on my MKIII - Maybe a bad computer?

    My fuel pump is kaput. I am starting the process of replacing it and have a few questions:

    I have a full tank of gas. Is siphoning my only option to lose some fuel? If so I guess I should buy som surgical tubing and try not to inhale gas?

    Is cutting an access hole an option or am I asking for an explosion? Is covering the tank with a moving blanket before cutting wit a dreamer an option?

    If I do cut Iíll need measurements. Does anyone have them handy?

    If I cut, should first remove the tank entirely? Would the existing exposed gas line become a hazard at that point?

    Any other issues I should consider?


    FFR 5369 Pin Drive, IRS, Trigos, Torsen, Wilwoods, FMS BOSS 302 "B" cam , Mass-flo. CA SB100 (SPCN) Registered
    Delivered 4/23/06. "Finished" 4/2012 (still not done!)


  2. #2
    Tool Baron frankeeski's Avatar
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    Just tried calling you. I have some advice and I think I have a couple fuel pumps if you are in need.
    Frank
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    Boydster's Avatar
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    Its just like doing it in the mustang that the tank was designed for. Hopefully, with no access panels, you left the lines and electrical loose enough to drop the tank.

    Either siphon a bunch of gas out or get a few friends to help balance it on a jack and a piece of wood. Undo the filler and the straps and lower it down, detaching the fuel lines and the electrical as soon as you can access them.

    I know an access panel breaks up all that beautiful metal, but with a panel, the whole job would take about 30 minutes. Maybe put one in while the tank is out?

    [edit: that tank, when full, is about 100 lbs and really, really awkward. Make sure you get help.]
    Last edited by Boydster; 06-30-2019 at 06:03 AM.
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    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    I agree w/ Boyd the tank is especially awkward w/ gas in it. I ran mine down to 1/4 tank when I wanted to remove it and I am not sure that is better. Turns out that with just a one degree slope, as you maneuver it, all the gas runs to one side. Now it's awkward and unbalanced. Mine slid off the small piece of plywood I had on the floor jack pad and came out of the car real fast. So I'd cut an access hole first. Your tank filler is capped. Do you have a hose coming off the tank vent? If so plug it temporarily. If not install one and plug it. I would do it at zero dark thirty so the gas is as cold as it will get and giving off the least amount of vapor. For in place aluminum I really like my multi tool
    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Dremel-M...5-01/305884644
    I use a half round blade installed about 45 degress so a lot of it's cutting edge is on the side. I find I can cut super straight lines this way.
    Last edited by CraigS; 06-30-2019 at 06:30 AM.
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    Well Used Member boat737's Avatar
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    For siphoning, by far, hands down, the greatest invention ever. (Why didn't I think of it.).

    https://smile.amazon.com/SUYIZN-Siph...-1-spons&psc=1

    Stick the ball bearing end in the tank, shake it up and down a few times, (I know, pretty suggestive...) and WAH-LAH! Gas flows out.
    If Brute Force doesn't work, you're not using enough of it.
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    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    David,

    After you Yank-Da-Tank and have access to the locking ring remember to use a Brass Rod if you need to knock/tap that sucker loose.
    Sparks suck and a partially full gas tank is a bomb as we all know and we don't you to go up in smoke like the fireworks that we'll be blowing up on Thursday.

    Steve
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 06-30-2019 at 09:45 AM.

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    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
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    Thanks guys. And thank for the lead on the siphon. They sell this at my local pep boys so I’ll pick one up today.

    I agree that I’m dealing with a potentially explosive situation so I’m not going to cut the access hole with the tank n the car. I will report back after it is dropped. If I do cut it after I might need some measurements from those who have the hole cut at the factory.

    Thanks,


    FFR 5369 Pin Drive, IRS, Trigos, Torsen, Wilwoods, FMS BOSS 302 "B" cam , Mass-flo. CA SB100 (SPCN) Registered
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  8. #8
    Junior Member SJDave's Avatar
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    Have a couple fire extinguishers at the ready with another friend standing by just in case.
    Move the car outside
    Don't forget to disconnect the battery
    Wear only natural fibers clothes...no polyester
    A near empty tank is the most dangerous from explosion point of view

    Good luck be safe!

  9. #9
    David aka Ducky2009 Ducky2009's Avatar
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    David, the fumes are more dangerous then liquid gas. You can light a small open container of gas and it will burn like a candle. A closed container of fumes is like a hand grenade. As Steve (Go-Dad-Go) said use brass to not have a spark.

    As SJDave said - do it outside.

    Is cutting an access hole an option-----NO
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    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
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    Today I managed to CAREFULLY drop the tank:



    Then I disassembled the pump from the carrier:



    The screen was a lot dirtier than I anticipated. How do I clean it?

    One thing I could not figure out was how to get the filter off the bottom of the pump. I didn't want to force it. Do these pumps look compatible to you?






    FFR 5369 Pin Drive, IRS, Trigos, Torsen, Wilwoods, FMS BOSS 302 "B" cam , Mass-flo. CA SB100 (SPCN) Registered
    Delivered 4/23/06. "Finished" 4/2012 (still not done!)


  11. #11
    i.e.427's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Hodgkins View Post


    The screen was a lot dirtier than I anticipated. How do I clean it?

    One thing I could not figure out was how to get the filter off the bottom of the pump. I didn't want to force it. Do these pumps look compatible to you?


    The screen is disposable, throw it away. The new pump should have come with a new one. If you want to remove it, a flat blade screwdriver can be used to pry it away from the bottom of the pump.

    The pumps look similar. The rubber isolator from the old pump can be fitted around the new pump.
    Last edited by i.e.427; 06-30-2019 at 11:24 PM.
    i.e.427 is located in the Southern California Inland Empire. We help Factory Five customers and builders realize their dreams by providing assembly, fabrication and maintenance for their Factory Five projects.

  12. #12
    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
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    Thanks Frank! I didn’t see a new filter. Going outside to check it out now...


    FFR 5369 Pin Drive, IRS, Trigos, Torsen, Wilwoods, FMS BOSS 302 "B" cam , Mass-flo. CA SB100 (SPCN) Registered
    Delivered 4/23/06. "Finished" 4/2012 (still not done!)


  13. #13
    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
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    No filter included with the pump. The screen on the old pump looks like it’s locked on. I’ll call Fortes’s in the am.


    FFR 5369 Pin Drive, IRS, Trigos, Torsen, Wilwoods, FMS BOSS 302 "B" cam , Mass-flo. CA SB100 (SPCN) Registered
    Delivered 4/23/06. "Finished" 4/2012 (still not done!)


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    While you've got the tank out, it's time to cut that access hole. Use some nut-serts and make it easy to remove in the future. You'll obviously need some aluminum to make a cover panel, but the good thing is, you get to decide how big to make it rather than using what FFR provides.

    Scott

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    You can use rubbing alcohol on that screen to clean it up. I would probably just dip it into some and let it sit there for a bit. Good work on getting the tank out. I remember that being awkward when it was empty. I hope to never need to do it with fuel in the tank.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Jetfuel's Avatar
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    OK Mr Hodgkins
    Did you drain the tank or just man handle it full?

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    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetfuel View Post
    OK Mr Hodgkins
    Did you drain the tank or just man handle it full?
    Well... I am a Wookie... -jk

    I think the tank ended up being less than 1/2 full. Once I got everything loosened up and the fuel lines separated I put a set of jackstands under the tank and had my daughters stablize the tank while I lowered it to the jackstands. At that point I disconnected the electrical for the pump and sender, then I raised it up, pulled the jackstands, and lowered it to the ground, again with the help of my daughters.

    From there I muscled it outside and siphoned the gas out using the jiggle siphon mentioned above.

    I'm waiting on a new filter from Mike Forte. I might have to cut the rubber isolater bottom because it looks like the pump have different positions at the bottom for the filter. Once I get the filter tomorrow I'll post more pics and an update.


    FFR 5369 Pin Drive, IRS, Trigos, Torsen, Wilwoods, FMS BOSS 302 "B" cam , Mass-flo. CA SB100 (SPCN) Registered
    Delivered 4/23/06. "Finished" 4/2012 (still not done!)


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    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Hodgkins View Post
    Well... I am a Wookie... -jk

    I think the tank ended up being less than 1/2 full. Once I got everything loosened up and the fuel lines separated I put a set of jackstands under the tank and had my daughters stablize the tank while I lowered it to the jackstands. At that point I disconnected the electrical for the pump and sender, then I raised it up, pulled the jackstands, and lowered it to the ground, again with the help of my daughters.

    From there I muscled it outside and siphoned the gas out using the jiggle siphon mentioned above.

    I'm waiting on a new filter from Mike Forte. I might have to cut the rubber isolater bottom because it looks like the pump have different positions at the bottom for the filter. Once I get the filter tomorrow I'll post more pics and an update.

    The Moral Of The Story:

    You Can't Beat Those Wrench Passing, Tool Handing, Ratchet Swinging Tank Grabbing Baby Girls!

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    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
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    I received a new fuel pump screen today - Thanks Mike Forte!!

    I'd like to create access holes for the sender and pump before reassembling. Can someone supply the measurements? I need width, length, and location info...

    Anyone?


    FFR 5369 Pin Drive, IRS, Trigos, Torsen, Wilwoods, FMS BOSS 302 "B" cam , Mass-flo. CA SB100 (SPCN) Registered
    Delivered 4/23/06. "Finished" 4/2012 (still not done!)


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    i.e.427's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Hodgkins View Post
    I received a new fuel pump screen today - Thanks Mike Forte!!

    I'd like to create access holes for the sender and pump before reassembling. Can someone supply the measurements? I need width, length, and location info...

    Anyone?

    Call me tomorrow and I can measure while on the phone.

    Frank
    i.e.427 is located in the Southern California Inland Empire. We help Factory Five customers and builders realize their dreams by providing assembly, fabrication and maintenance for their Factory Five projects.

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    Senior Member RJD's Avatar
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    I'm not at home right now so I can't run out to the garage and measure, but perhaps these photos will help you estimate.

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    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Frank will probably tell you the same but make that hole as large as possible to provide plenty of working room because even when the tank is on the ground it often takes a lot of wiggling and various approach angles (as well as creative swearing) to get the pump and pickup around the internal baffle and into position. Oh, one other thing...don't forget to put the gas back into the tank before you lift it up into place

    Jeff

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    Senior Member Big Blocker's Avatar
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    Dave,

    Can't agree more . . . make the hole(s) as big as possible, especially for the pump. It needs a lot of "wiggle room" to get it in to the tank if the trunk floor is still above it - pretty simple if the tank is on the floor.

    Grease the gasket "O" ring when re-installing the pump mount - use a non-metal drift punch to tighten the retainer ring . . . we don't want any sparks to get to the fumes coming out of the tank during pump install.

    Doc
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    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
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    I think I'l take all y'alls advice and make it oversized. I pulled the pump from my brother's car and remember what a pain it was. I might try to copy RJD's design. RJD, I like that size you created. Good job!

    Doc, thanks for the reminder. I'll take care putting the retainer ring back in.


    Now where did I put that flint hammer???


    FFR 5369 Pin Drive, IRS, Trigos, Torsen, Wilwoods, FMS BOSS 302 "B" cam , Mass-flo. CA SB100 (SPCN) Registered
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    This is the one BIG reason that I went an external fuel pump!

    Ray
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    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
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    Today I worked on drilingout the access holes for the fuel pump and the sender. Here are some pics of how I measured and drilled the holes:



    2-3/4" from the center of the outer strap, r=then I added an inch and rilled a 4" hole:









    FFR 5369 Pin Drive, IRS, Trigos, Torsen, Wilwoods, FMS BOSS 302 "B" cam , Mass-flo. CA SB100 (SPCN) Registered
    Delivered 4/23/06. "Finished" 4/2012 (still not done!)


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    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
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    Then I added the corners using a 1-1/4 radius drill and cut out the shape:


    Next,I added a 4" hole 17" from the original measurement of the fuel pump hole (minus the 1: offset)

    FFR 5369 Pin Drive, IRS, Trigos, Torsen, Wilwoods, FMS BOSS 302 "B" cam , Mass-flo. CA SB100 (SPCN) Registered
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    Senior Member Big Blocker's Avatar
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    As usual, you are showing off your sheet metal working skills . . . the master at work.

    Looks GREAT! Dave.

    Doc
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    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
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    I have a problem:



    The rubber sleeve I'm attempting to use off the old pump has a thick bottom that is preventing me from attaching the filter.

    Can I just cut off the bottom of the sleeve?


    FFR 5369 Pin Drive, IRS, Trigos, Torsen, Wilwoods, FMS BOSS 302 "B" cam , Mass-flo. CA SB100 (SPCN) Registered
    Delivered 4/23/06. "Finished" 4/2012 (still not done!)


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    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
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    Bad news. After replacing the pump I turned the key to test it and nothing happened. So I’m back to testing the I Squared harness.


    FFR 5369 Pin Drive, IRS, Trigos, Torsen, Wilwoods, FMS BOSS 302 "B" cam , Mass-flo. CA SB100 (SPCN) Registered
    Delivered 4/23/06. "Finished" 4/2012 (still not done!)


  33. #31
    Senior Member weendoggy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Hodgkins View Post
    Bad news. After replacing the pump I turned the key to test it and nothing happened. So I’m back to testing the I Squared harness.

    What made you think the old pump was bad in the first place? Did you test the pump direct before you pulled the old one out?
    I'm just a victim of a thousand physic wars!
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    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by weendoggy View Post
    What made you think the old pump was bad in the first place? Did you test the pump direct before you pulled the old one out?
    Nope. Live and learn I guess.

    I think the relay went bad. There is an indicator light on the board that isn’t lighting. I thought maybe it was because the connection wasn’t made at the pump but I guess I was wrong. That stopped making that relay in 2014.

    Frank (ie427) mentioned there is a stand alone module that I could replace it with. I’d have to figure out a way to wire it.

    That’s what I get for going non traditional with the wiring harness...


    FFR 5369 Pin Drive, IRS, Trigos, Torsen, Wilwoods, FMS BOSS 302 "B" cam , Mass-flo. CA SB100 (SPCN) Registered
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  35. #33
    Senior Member KDubU's Avatar
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    David failed???? What up with that? Built two roadsters and a fuel pump beat you?
    Kyle

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  36. #34

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    Dave,

    What is the manufacturer and part number of the relay?

    Allan

  37. #35
    Senior Member SSNK4US's Avatar
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    Dave, someone posted some diagrams on your original relay swap post (which for the life of me I canít find again and no idea how I found it in the first place) of the discontinued relay. The pin configuration, 86,87, 87a etc is the same as every 80ís to mid 90ís BMW used. Basic Bosch relay. BMW dealer, import car part place that maybe deals in old VWís,amazon? (Thatís where I got the pictures) The only difference might be the Panasonic blades might be narrower? Hard to tell but nothing a pair of dykes couldnít handle lol Or a bigger ford tool We build, we modify...and as the dark side always says...
    we persevere lol Panasonic, Bosch, tomato, tomahto.... easy peasy
    Most of the Bosch relays have a diagram on them that you can match to what that guy posted in the specs picture. It might even be on your bad relay? Match up the PIN numbers, diodes, resistors etc and your good to go. Oh and hopefully the pin spacing would be the same. If not still totally modifiable.
    HTH
    Kurt

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    Last edited by SSNK4US; 07-08-2019 at 01:18 PM.
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  38. #36
    Senior Member SSNK4US's Avatar
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    Oh but on the plus side of it all Dave.....

    You have a new access hole!!!
    If everything seems under control, youíre just not going fast enough....

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  39. #37
    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
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    Kurt, are you talking about this thread?
    https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...the-road-again!

    Allen, the relay itself can be found here:

    https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/3...14-1075658.pdf

    It is the #3. Micro-ISO PC board type (1 Form C)


    FFR 5369 Pin Drive, IRS, Trigos, Torsen, Wilwoods, FMS BOSS 302 "B" cam , Mass-flo. CA SB100 (SPCN) Registered
    Delivered 4/23/06. "Finished" 4/2012 (still not done!)


  40. #38

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    Dave,

    Is the relay plug-in or solder-in? I can't quite tell from the Mouser reference. If plug in, there are several vendors on eBay selling NEW Panasonic CM-1a relays. Go for one without the "R", which has a built in resistor. If solder, let me know, maybe I can find something else in the same form factor.

    UPDATE: I looked at the data sheet a bit more carefully; see below:

    Can you send me the EXACT P/N from the relay? From the data sheet, it appears that the only solder-in relays were 24v, not 12v. If so, the relays being sold by the following vendor would work perfectly: https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-CM1-12V...YAAOSwFMZWqg3V

    Also, the only discontinued ones are the ones with the diode, which is typically installed ACROSS the coil of the relay to dampen eddy currents (created during on/off, sort of like back EMF).

    Allan
    Last edited by videodude; 07-08-2019 at 03:38 PM.

  41. #39
    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
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    Allen it's the solder in type AC13111.




    FFR 5369 Pin Drive, IRS, Trigos, Torsen, Wilwoods, FMS BOSS 302 "B" cam , Mass-flo. CA SB100 (SPCN) Registered
    Delivered 4/23/06. "Finished" 4/2012 (still not done!)


  42. #40

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    Dave,

    Those are the same relays you swapped before, and NOT the ones on the Mouser page you sent me. I'm confused now.

    UPDATE: Assuming this is from the same board you repaired before, the part number for the fuel pump relay is CB1-D-P-12v; ebay link is as follows:

    https://www.ebay.com/i/142407957227?chn=ps

    Allan
    Last edited by videodude; 07-08-2019 at 03:56 PM.

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