Replacing the fuel pump on my MKIII - On the road again!

[videodude]

OR, your EEC isn't getting any power. Don't rule out the dumb stuff.

I am assuming that your I-Squared chassis wiring harness has TWO +12 lines going to the EEC (the A9L): one directly from the battery for the "keep alive", which should be fused with a low value fuse OR a fusible link, and one via the RUN position on your ignition switch which should engage a relay to power the EEC. These would be part of the I-Squared harness, NOT part of the MASS-FLO system. The MASS-FLO probably has it's own wiring from the RUN side of the ignition switch.

Don't blame your A9L until you can confirm it is getting power. I bet it isn't.

Allan

[i.e.427]

OR, your EEC isn't getting any power.

Allan

I think I mentioned this to him on the phone................................. A week ago.

[videodude]

Be nice . . .

[videodude]

Hey Dave,

Did you ever get this resolved? Inquiring minds . . . yadda, yadda, yadda.

Videodude

[SSNK4US]

X2

Kurt

[David Hodgkins]

Thought I'd check in...

I'm giving serious thought to ditching the Mass-flo and buying this Holley HP EFI retrofit kit:
https://www.holley.com/products/fuel.../parts/550-500

While I'm at it - because I'd take the body off to complete the retrofit - I'm thinking of ditching the i-Squared and putting in a new Ron Francis MKIV chassis harness.

It's extreme, but I know the end result would be a much more reliable ride. I've been on a flatbed too many times (3) already. Time to ditch the experiments of the 'aughts and put in today's standard.

Should only cost me ~ $3500...

[frankeeski]

Should only cost me ~ $3500...

Dude! Really? Holley just released a new Terminator X kit for 87-93 specific Fox body cars for $1149.
https://www.holley.com/products/fuel...parts/550-937F

And if you want to save another $250 and do a little wiring/splicing they have the none model specific kit for $999.
https://www.holley.com/products/fuel.../parts/550-937

Since there is nothing wrong with your engines hardware, why replace the intake, fuel logs, injectors, distributor and throttle body? Throw in the $550 for the Ron Francis harness and your at less than half of what you've just estimated.


Just my $.02

PS, if you want to save another $500 you could get the Ron Francis 5.0 engine harness to go with the chassis harness. Did that on the Silver car I just finished.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/r...waAj_1EALw_wcB

[weendoggy]

I guess you better decide if you want to keep the Ford electronic crap or move up. If you're thinking of a carb look, I'd do a Sniper (which will need a manifold just like you'd need with the kit you mentioned) and then I'd ditch the TFI and go with either Holley's Dual Sync Distributor or their Hyperspark system. That's if you want to keep it all the same. Just wired a Sniper/Dual Sync on a friends and it is very nice.

If you want to keep PFI, it'll cost a lot more.

[David Hodgkins]

Dude! Really? Holley just released a new Terminator X kit for 87-93 specific Fox body cars for $1149.
https://www.holley.com/products/fuel...parts/550-937F

And if you want to save another $250 and do a little wiring/splicing they have the none model specific kit for $999.
https://www.holley.com/products/fuel.../parts/550-937

Since there is nothing wrong with your engines hardware, why replace the intake, fuel logs, injectors, distributor and throttle body? Throw in the $550 for the Ron Francis harness and your at less than half of what you've just estimated.


Just my $.02

PS, if you want to save another $500 you could get the Ron Francis 5.0 engine harness to go with the chassis harness. Did that on the Silver car I just finished.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/r...waAj_1EALw_wcB

OK I'll bite; do you know if either of the above work with my existing throttle body, and do they support multi-port EFI? I have no problem switching solutions, if they are compatible and save me money, why not??

I guess you better decide if you want to keep the Ford electronic crap or move up. If you're thinking of a carb look, I'd do a Sniper (which will need a manifold just like you'd need with the kit you mentioned) and then I'd ditch the TFI and go with either Holley's Dual Sync Distributor or their Hyperspark system. That's if you want to keep it all the same. Just wired a Sniper/Dual Sync on a friends and it is very nice.

If you want to keep PFI, it'll cost a lot more.

PFI? All I know is that the Sniper isn't multiport, so I'd end up with a bit of a Frankenstein solution unless I switch out the intake, correct?

[weendoggy]

PFI? All I know is that the Sniper isn't multiport, so I'd end up with a bit of a Frankenstein solution unless I switch out the intake, correct?

Port Fuel Injection. Yes, you'd have to swap the intake. A Sniper package with ignition would be less than $2k including a new intake. Then you can junk all the Ford EFI stuff.

I think if you go the other route as Frank suggests, it may not work with your TB because that is setup for a stock Ford EFI system, so your Mass Air TB probably won't work.

There's always a work around to do things, its just a matter of how much work and money you want to throw at it.

[David Hodgkins]

Port Fuel Injection. Yes, you'd have to swap the intake. A Sniper package with ignition would be less than $2k including a new intake. Then you can junk all the Ford EFI stuff.

I think if you go the other route as Frank suggests, it may not work with your TB because that is setup for a stock Ford EFI system, so your Mass Air TB probably won't work.

There's always a work around to do things, its just a matter of how much work and money you want to throw at it.

Thanks Mr. Doggy!

[frankeeski]

OK I'll bite; do you know if either of the above work with my existing throttle body, and do they support multi-port EFI? I have no problem switching solutions, if they are compatible and save me money, why not??

Your existing Mass-Flo system uses what computer? Why wouldn't a throttle body made for a Ford computer not work?...... That's rhetorical.
Either system will work. The Fox body kit has more of the Ford specific harnesses connector all ready to go as part of the harness. The universal kit has you adding weather-pac connectors to your existing sensors to plug into the Terminator X harness, just a bit more work. If it's less painful to just spend the money, then by all means.

Did you bother to even click on the link?
TERMINATOR X FOXBODY 5.0 MPFI KIT
Foxbody 5.0L Specific MPFI Main Harness - Ford Spaced EV1 Injector Harness, 3.5" Touchscreen Included

PART# 550-937F

It says MPFI twice in the description.

[frankeeski]

I guess you better decide if you want to keep the Ford electronic crap or move up.

Then you can junk all the Ford EFI stuff.

Nice to know I built my car with a bunch of crap.............. Thanks

[Big Blocker]

Is it as obvious to anyone else besides me that weendoggy has had nothing but trouble with FORD's EFI system in the past??

There's about a bazillion cars out there with that system and still on the road, Frank's and mine are just a few examples of cars built with fORD "junk".

Just my 2¢

Doc

[weendoggy]

(quoted: Nice to know I built my car with a bunch of crap.............. Thanks)

You're welcome.

Now, my point was if he was to put another system and "merge" it with the Ford system (no crap), you run a better chance of having issues. Running the Holley with the TFI is known to have issues (on the Ford side). So, if you change, change it all.

[weendoggy]

Is it as obvious to anyone else besides me that weendoggy has had nothing but trouble with FORD's EFI system in the past??

There's about a bazillion cars out there with that system and still on the road, Frank's and mine are just a few examples of cars built with fORD "junk".

Just my 2¢

Doc

I'll add a couple more cents. I run a few Ford vehicles and did so with my initial build. However, it only goes so far. Trying to "piece" several different systems together is NOT the way to go, either go all in or leave it be. If the Ford TFI system is so good, how come there are thousands of posts on this and other forums about how bad it is. Plus, lets not forget the many responses to get rid of it, or better yet, try this, try that, replace this, replace that. All I'm saying is NOT to piece several different EFI electronic systems together. To answer your question on having trouble, that answer is no, maybe this is 1 in a bazillion that does. nuf said.

[Big Blocker]

Agreed, don't mix-n-match parts, especially when it comes to the electronics - stick with tried-n-true combinations

Doc

[frankeeski]

If the Ford TFI system is so good, how come there are thousands of posts on this and other forums about how bad it is. Plus, lets not forget the many responses to get rid of it, or better yet, try this, try that, replace this, replace that. All I'm saying is NOT to piece several different EFI electronic systems together.

What a flaming pile of garbage that is. The Holley system I linked has just been introduced and you already "know" it has issues? For the record (Doc wouldn't know this) I run a Stinger ECU with a dieted 94 harness, Summit billet distributor, Accufab throttle body with a Standard Motor Products TPS, Airtex Wells IAC and a CCRM I harvested from the donor. Are you telling me that none of that is designed to work together?

I've become somewhat of an authority regarding the rebuilding of poorly built Factory Five Cars. I generally see at least 2 of these fine examples a year. Some are private party sales but most are ebay sales. The car below was an auto broker sale.

20181007_115057 by i.e.427, on Flickr
Rebuilding as many of these cars as I have, has shown me that you can use the cheapest parts or the most expensive parts there are and still end up with a car that won't run for squat. I've used just about every combination of parts to build or rebuild one of these cars and I just don't have the issues you describe. Why do you think that is? I'm pretty sure it's because I build them the right way, read the instructions for the products before hand and make sure I understand how they are all supposed to work. A large problem with some of the people that are building hot-rods today is that they choose, so called, plug and play parts for their cars and have no working knowledge of how any of it works. On top of that, they have no troubleshooting knowledge. Not sure if it was here or on another car forum that I read but someone ditched an entire FiTech system in their car and replaced it with a brand new Holley Sniper? Maybe the one you referred to? Anyhow, the same guy is now having issues with the Holley system dousing the spark-plugs in fuel. So much for getting it all from the same manufacturer.

To your point regarding the Ford TFI. Discussion on forums is hardly a statistic. There is more dis-information on most automotive forums then there are facts. In real life experience I can tell you that 1-20 TFI so called failures are actually the TFI. More often than not it's poor diagnosis or wiring like I posted examples of above.

In the end, David is going to do what ever he chooses. I'll lend him a hand regardless of which system or parts he decides on.

In the interest of moving forward, forget everything I said above..........................................

You're right.

[weendoggy]

...

I've become somewhat of an authority regarding the rebuilding of poorly built Factory Five Cars. I generally see at least 2 of these fine examples a year. Some are private party sales but most are ebay sales...

Thank you, and because you are the "authority" (self induced I see), I can honestly admit I have been wrong in the past, present and future. So, with that in mind, I'm done.

[David Hodgkins]

This thread has really jumped off track. Not really a proud brotherhood moment.

[7tvette]

Hello David! I missed not coming down to visit last Spring. I also had the I-Squared unit and had problems with the fuel pump wiring after about 8 years. It wasn't the fuel pump and I couldn't ever diagnose what the issue was, so I replaced the I-Squared unit with the Ron Francis and FAST 1.0 (external pump). No Issues.

Any update on HB 2020?

Troy

[David Hodgkins]

Hi Troy,

The chassis change out is definitely going to happen. I suppose I could wait to change out the EFI but since the car will be apart it seems logical to replace it too.

re: HB - It is set for April 25, 2020. On Main Street and the Pier. It will be a MAJOR party!!



PS Too bad you missed the 2019 show. I heard there was a killer band!

[canuck1]

This thread has really jumped off track. Not really a proud brotherhood moment.

Sorry this turned into a bit of a stinker of a thread. I was actually following along with the diagnoses and suggested fixes. Started out interesting enough.

Just to add to the anecdotal 'data', my I-Squared harness has been in place since 2007 and still running strong. I bought the 'relay based' system though (not the mosfet transistor style), so I can still replace components fairly easily if I need to. Hasn't needed a thing. I'm also running a mongrel Ford/aftermarket EFI mixture that has worked pretty well, considering the lack of support that comes with DIY. It made me have to figure stuff out on my own, and I'm a slow learner (or stubborn, depending on who you ask) I still have a Ford-based Mass-Flo-EFI style EFI system that's working fine too! Feel free to tease me about running ancient technology, everyone else does. What can I say? I turn the key, it works. To be fair, I do have my eye on the Holley Sniper kit if the current EFI setup ever packs it in.

I wouldn't jump to a full scale harness and EFI system replacement to deal with the bugs you've had, but I know that piece of mind is worth a lot when it comes to reliability. Do what suits you.

Sean

[ptstew]

I’ve just read through this entire thread first time so I am definitely a few days late and dollars short. Two years ago, I started my car and as I went to pull out of the garage it stalled and wouldn’t restart. There was no 3 second fuel pump. I spent hours going through all the diagnostics described in the thread for checking the fuel pump circuit and eventually found no signal from my original 1991 donor EEC to the fuel pump relay when ignition on. I opened the computer and found all three capacitors inside wet with leaking electrolyte fluid. I sent it away for rebuilding and put it back in and car fired right up first try. I bought another one and also had it checked out and capacitors replaced and it works fine in my car. It is a working spare which I’d be happy to send to you to try if you haven’t already eliminated the EEC as the problem and/or moved on to another system.

[videodude]

Ptstew,

I already did the capacitors on Dave's A9L EEC some time ago; it is working properly. The problem is in the I-Squared chassis harness and Dave isn't the first one to have this problem, apparently. A number of us have suggested some work-arounds, but Dave isn't comfortable with electrons (which I totally understand) and even if some of us who ARE comfortable with wiring were to diagnose, troubleshoot, and fix the actual problem, I get the impression that Dave would be MUCH happier with a brand-new chassis wiring harness. Couple that with the fact that his Mass-Flo system is no longer being supported, I think he wants to start over from square one. Nothing wrong with that, and nothing wrong with Dave's original build choices. There's just better choices available today and he wants to upgrade. Totally understandable.

Video

[Big Blocker]

QUOTE: "PS Too bad you missed the 2019 show. I heard there was a killer band!" What 2019 show??? Too funny . . .

That being said, I'm already gearing up for the 2020 All-Out-Bash, Whoo-Hoo!! 1 7 2 days but who's counting.

Doc

[ptstew]

Ptstew,

I already did the capacitors on Dave's A9L EEC some time ago; it is working properly. The problem is in the I-Squared chassis harness and Dave isn't the first one to have this problem, apparently. A number of us have suggested some work-arounds, but Dave isn't comfortable with electrons (which I totally understand) and even if some of us who ARE comfortable with wiring were to diagnose, troubleshoot, and fix the actual problem, I get the impression that Dave would be MUCH happier with a brand-new chassis wiring harness. Couple that with the fact that his Mass-Flo system is no longer being supported, I think he wants to start over from square one. Nothing wrong with that, and nothing wrong with Dave's original build choices. There's just better choices available today and he wants to upgrade. Totally understandable.

Video

I agree, Video. One of the things that make these cars so enjoyable is the fact that they are never complete and upgrading/solving problems is hugely rewarding.

[frankeeski]

and because you are the "authority" (self induced I see)

Ya nailed it. I don't know how you do it? It's almost like you have a window into my soul.

[David Hodgkins]

Hello David! I missed not coming down to visit last Spring. I also had the I-Squared unit and had problems with the fuel pump wiring after about 8 years. It wasn't the fuel pump and I couldn't ever diagnose what the issue was, so I replaced the I-Squared unit with the Ron Francis and FAST 1.0 (external pump). No Issues.

Any update on HB 2020?

Troy

Hi Troy,

The chassis change out is definitely going to happen. I suppose I could wait to change out the EFI but since the car will be apart it seems logical to replace it too.

re: HB - It is set for April 25, 2020. On Main Street and the Pier. It will be a MAJOR party!!



PS Too bad you missed the 2019 show. I heard there was a killer band!

Well, well, well.

I see it's been a while since my last post. November. Anything happen in the world since then??

So not using that as an excuse in and of itself at all - Thank God - the truth is that I've been waiting to pull the plug on a new EFI due to the financial impact all 3 kids moving home. But finally, as luck would have it, a guy named Mike posted a power module for sale. I jumped on it and this just arrived:



This is LIKE NEW. The board and electronics are immaculate. He also packed a whole set of extra pins so I can just re-set the two power cables I had cut and then just plug in this brand-new looking power unit!

Interesting side note: he took this out because he wired in replacement fused relays into his harness and was able to ditch this unit. I'm determined to learn how to do the same!

[David Hodgkins]

You guys aren't going to believe this...

It WORKED!!! The whole time, it was the power module. I plugged in the new one and she fired right up!!

I'm BACK!!