Boig Motorsports

Visit our community sponsor

Thanks Thanks:  2
Likes Likes:  7
Results 1 to 29 of 29

Thread: Transmission choices for Roadster

  1. #1
    Senior Member delta0014's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    144
    Post Thanks / Like

    Transmission choices for Roadster

    Anyone have any thoughts on the TKO600 vs T56 in a roadster.

    Just be a daily driver, no track plans.

    Anyone put a T56 in a roadster? Any mods you had to do to make it fit?

  2. #2
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Bloomington, Indiana
    Posts
    4,575
    Post Thanks / Like
    The T56 can and has been done with IRS (I have one in the shop right now with that configuration) but in my opinion the double overdrive that the 6 speed provides is unnecessary.

    Jeff

  3. #3
    Senior Member delta0014's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    144
    Post Thanks / Like
    Thanks Jeff,
    Heard that from another guy too. Think i'll just keep it easy and stick with the TKO.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    515
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner View Post
    The T56 can and has been done with IRS (I have one in the shop right now with that configuration) but in my opinion the double overdrive that the 6 speed provides is unnecessary.

    Jeff
    T56 / IRS here.

    I agree with Jeff that double overdrive is overkill.

    To get a T56 in a Mk4 "straight" - you have to rearrange the bar where the parking brake mounts.

    If you (think you) want to go into 5th gear as just another standard shift - get a .8 5th.

    If you want to use 5th as an overdrive (with a big rpm drop) - go with the ~.64.


    Years ago, I listened to the 5th gear shifts in the video linked below and decided .64 5th would never do.

    In reality - the first three gears are so much "fun", I very, very rarely shift into 4th hard, much less 5th (and never, ever - 6th)...


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW-bc8FFZ1A

  5. #5

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
    GoDadGo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Slidell, Louisiana
    Posts
    3,687
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner View Post
    The double overdrive that the 6 speed provides is unnecessary.

    Jeff
    I'm a huge fan of having a 6-Speed Transmission and have a ZF S6-40 which is pretty darn short but this transmission won't link up to a Ford engine.
    The T-56 is so darn long that I just don't think it is worth the effort just to have that extra gear.

    http://www.zfdoc.com/techinfo.htm

    If you want to go the Dark Side then send me a private message and I'll share what I know.
    Just understand that going to the Dark Side comes with a price.

    https://youtu.be/_wnHDNgnNqs

    ZF S6-40 Gear Specifications:
    Gear ratios - 1st-2.68, 2nd-1.80, 3rd-1.29, 4th-1.0, 5th-0.75, 6th-0.50, Reverse-2.50
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 08-11-2019 at 07:45 AM.

  6. #6
    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    "The High Country", beautiful Flagstaff, AZ
    Posts
    1,408
    Post Thanks / Like
    Ford vs Chevy.jpg

    For you Steve, from the Dart Dark Side. BTW, I only run two gears -- low and high and it's still exciting.
    33 Hot Rod Super Pro Drag Racer
    33 HR NHRA Cert Roll Cage Build

  7. Thanks GoDadGo thanked for this post
    Likes GoDadGo, rsw81 liked this post
  8. #7
    Senior Member BEAR-AvHistory's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Raleigh NC USA
    Posts
    922
    Post Thanks / Like
    the 5 speed is a solid box. If you are worried about interstate revs get the version with the OD gear that suits your rear axle best. .064 or .082 on the TKO-600. First 4 gears are the same in both versions.
    Kevin
    MKIV #8234
    Coyote '13/TKO-600/3-Link 3:55 Rear
    Delivered 2/7/14 - Plate "COYOTE NC1965" 3/25/15

  9. #8
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Lake Orion, Michigan
    Posts
    6,405
    Post Thanks / Like
    The tight squeeze for a T-56 in a Roadster along with requiring IRS has been covered. So can't add anything there. Plus it's heavier and requires a different bell housing. I've had a Roadster with the .82 TKO (#7750) and the .64 TKO (#8674), so can comment about that. The .82 is nice because there's much less of a gap between 4th and 5th. So it's a nice choice for less than highway cruising, e.g. country roads in the 45-55 MPH range. But at highway speeds (70+) I found the engine RPM higher than optimal. The .64 TKO on the other hand is pretty much a highway only gear. Cruise all day at 70+ and the engine RPM's are reasonable. But for less than highway speeds, you won't be using it very often. These are generalizations, and also influenced by what engine you use and also the rear diff ratio. But still valid considerations IMO. I personally prefer the .64 version.

    The T-56 does have a couple things going for it. Basically you don't have to choose which overdrive option you prefer. You get both. Plus it's a single rail shifter setup, unlike the 3-rail shifter in the TKO. Most agree it shifts better and easier. I have one on my Gen 3 Coupe build. In my grand total of 2 miles driving the build around my neighborhood, I like the way it shifts a lot. Short and precise. The T-56 also has a solenoid operated reverse lockout setup which is nice. But it does add a level of complexity some may not appreciate. Final comment regarding the T-56, it's more than just one versus two overdrive gears. The ratios for 1st through 4th are also different than the TKO's. I would not consider the diff ratio interchangeable between the two. After my analysis, I found the 3.73 diff ratio with the T-56 was similar to the TKO with a 3.55 diff. A combination I really like. Not saying others would come to the same conclusion. But it's something to add into the equation when considering.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014.
    Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. #7750 Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. 03 of 20. 2015 crate Coyote, 2015 IRS. Legal 04/18/2017. #8674 Build Thread and Video
    Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 crate Coyote. Delivered 12/2/2017. #59 Coupe Build Thread

  10. Thanks Kmcallahan thanked for this post
  11. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    515
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by GoDadGo View Post

    If you want to go the Dark Side then send me a private massage and I'll share what I know.

    Just understand that going to the Dark Side comes with a price.
    You need to take that to the "dark web", this here is a family friendly forum...


    Quote Originally Posted by edwardb View Post

    The T-56 does have a couple things going for it.
    All agreed - the T56 shifts really well - I do think it's a little hard on second gear synchros due to the extra inertia of the extra overdrive.

    That is probably less of a concern on the T56 magnum - but that may also be slighty larger and heavier than the standard T56 (I don't know for certain).

  12. Likes GoDadGo liked this post
  13. #10

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
    GoDadGo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Slidell, Louisiana
    Posts
    3,687
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1
    Here's a suggestion; build a 393 like Mike223, go with the Road Race TKO, but run 3.23's or 3.08's out back.
    The car will still pull like a son of a gun and you'll be able to spin 1st up with no problem.
    A big inch small block will really surprise you even with conservative rear gears.
    Also, folks think I'm running a Big Block with only 383 cubes under the hood.
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 08-10-2019 at 12:32 PM.

  14. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    515
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by GoDadGo View Post
    Here's a suggestion; build a 393 like Mike223, go with the Road Race TKO, but go run 3.23's or 3.08's out back.
    The car will still pull like a son of a gun and you'll be able to spin 1st up with no problem.
    A big inch small block will really surprise you even with conservative rear gears.
    Also, folks think I'm running a Big Block with only 383 cubes under the hood.

    Good points - evaluate your displacement.

    I'm running 3.15 ring gear / True Trak with 500hp / 500ftlbs / 393w.

    Started with a 3.55 ring gear - spin / smoke 200tw 315 tires at half throttle in third.


    I didn't need that much excitement (it still spins 200tw "readily" in third, and on the occasional hard shift to 4th).

  15. #12
    David aka Ducky2009 Ducky2009's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Lilburn, GA
    Posts
    493
    Post Thanks / Like
    X2 what Paul (Edwardb) said. I have the TKO600 with .82 fifth, with 3.55 gears. Highway speeds.. engine RPM higher than optimal.

    If you want a lower gear ratio for takeoff, possible try a TKO500. Still not a cruising high gear. The advertised different, 500 vs 600 torque capacity.


    TKO Trans Gearing.jpg
    Last edited by Ducky2009; 08-10-2019 at 10:08 AM.
    MK4 Build #9035 Delivered 2/17/17, First Start & Go-Kart 6/2/17, Licensed 9/1/17
    Paint - Lightning Blue Metallic, No Hood Scoop, No Stripes
    Coyote Engine & TKO-600. Solid Axle, 8.8-3.55, Power Steering, Power Brakes, Dual Roll Bars
    Heater and Glove Box, Drop Trunk, Wipers, Radio, FFR Vintage Gauges
    Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...MK4-Build-9035

  16. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Posts
    334
    Post Thanks / Like
    I have a TKO-600 .64, Liberty Gear mods and about 65k miles on it. With 3.27 diff gears it cruised at 80 @ 2,200. 315/35-17s.

    My plan for the current build is to change to a T-56 Magnum. Diff gears are 3.31s. Cruising in 6th should be at about 2,200, maybe 2,300. The T-56 offers the cruising 6th and then a usable 5th OD, I always found that at 60-70 on back country roads the RPMS were either too high (4th) or too low in 5th. Wasn't really about the RPMs just my comfort zone and how much noise I wanted to make.

    I want the two ODs and expect better shifting at higher RPMs. Yup it's a $$ bump and weighs about 30# more but I saved almost that much weight with the aluminum IRS center.

    There are many ways to slice this pie. Best to evaluate now and make educated decisions. There are a variety of RPM/MPH calculators on-line, spending time with these can be a great education.

    Jim

  17. #14
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Blacksburg, Va
    Posts
    3,090
    Post Thanks / Like
    Maybe I missed it but I haven't seen you mention what engine you will be using. And what cam. This makes a difference especially when choosing 5th or 6th ratios. How low will your engine run happily? That affects your top gear choice. I have a TKO500 w/ the .64 5th and a 315 diff. I can cruise along at 50 at about 1500 but that is the minimum. A hill or 45mph and I need 4th and then, of course, I am at 2100. Sometimes that is an aggravation but at 75-80 I am at 2000-2100 which is really nice. Unless you run drag radials you will be traction limited so choosing gear based on any max acceleration formula is pretty much a waste of time.
    FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.

  18. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    515
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by CraigS View Post

    Unless you run drag radials you will be traction limited so choosing gear based on any max acceleration formula is pretty much a waste of time.
    Agreed.

    The formula I can recommend is aim to (barely) kiss the rev limiter in 3rd at the end of the 1/8 mile (whatever performance you plan to achieve), and aim to (barely) kiss the rev limiter in 4th at the end of the 1/4 mile (whatever performance you plan to achieve).

  19. #16

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
    GoDadGo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Slidell, Louisiana
    Posts
    3,687
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by mike223 View Post
    Agreed.

    The formula I can recommend is aim to (barely) kiss the rev limiter in 3rd at the end of the 1/8 mile (whatever performance you plan to achieve), and aim to (barely) kiss the rev limiter in 4th at the end of the 1/4 mile (whatever performance you plan to achieve).
    Double Ditto On Kissing The Rev-Limiter Because I Intend To Shift @ 6,000 RPM even though everything is set up to run 2,300 - 6,500!

    6,000 RPM = 124.8 MPH in 4th gear at the end of the 1/4 mile.

    Limiter will be set at 6,200 RPM which is 300 below the operation range.
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 08-11-2019 at 09:22 AM.

  20. #17
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    60
    Post Thanks / Like
    You get different gearsets for the T56/Magnum/6060..

    But you're going to pay. You get can the ZR1 gear set with double OD but taller first gear. You can gearsets with different double OD configurations, 5 gears and single OD, and 1:1 sixth.

  21. #18

    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Colgate, WI
    Posts
    113
    Post Thanks / Like
    So far what has been required to use the T56 from my experience:

    Replace Pinon Flange
    Replace center section of driveshaft with shorter length (now that everything is in place, the driveshaft only needs to be 3\4" shorter than original)
    Replace yoke flange with correct hole locations (4.5" diameter pattern) for New Pinon flange.
    Remove parking brake brackets, I plan to weld new supports off the main side tube.
    Remove material from angle brace on side of tunnel near parking brake mounts, add (weld) replacement bracing to support remaining portion of tube brace.
    Remove section of transmission support A-frame since T56 is lower just forward of the mounting holes.

    Unrelated, I did need to remove a section of a down brace in the engine compartment where it interfered with correct location of the 427.

    Will do complete write up with part numbers and pics if anyone is interested.
    Mk4, IRS, (Forte: 427 with EFI, T-56 MAG, hydraulic clutch, mechanical linkage, reverse lockout control module) (Breeze: Front and Rear Double adjustable QA1's, Cockpit cubby, LED Lights, Fan Shroud, Fan Lower Support, Oil Cooler Coil, power steering hose kit) (Russ: Drop Trunk, Turn Signal)

  22. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    515
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Jcdata View Post
    You get different gearsets for the T56/Magnum/6060..

    But you're going to pay. You get can the ZR1 gear set with double OD but taller first gear. You can gearsets with different double OD configurations, 5 gears and single OD, and 1:1 sixth.
    Yes you can get different gearsets.

    No, you can not change the essential OD configuration.


    In TKO500/600/T56/TR6060 transmissions, 4th gear is always 1:1 - because it's not even a "gear" - it's simply a synchro locking the input shaft to the output shaft.

    In theory you could make both your (T56) overdrives 1:1 with gears (and 1st / 2nd / 3rd gears for that matter) - but no one makes those gear options because it would be senseless.


    You do occasionally stumble across a transmission design - such as the Gertrag MT82 in late model Mustangs - where 5th "gear" is actually the 1:1 input/output lockup, and 6th is a single overdrive.


    But 4th "gear" is far more common to be the 1:1 "gear" among automotive transmission designs applicable here.

  23. #20
    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    "The High Country", beautiful Flagstaff, AZ
    Posts
    1,408
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by delta0014 View Post
    Anyone have any thoughts on the TKO600 vs T56 in a roadster.

    Just be a daily driver, no track plans.

    Anyone put a T56 in a roadster? Any mods you had to do to make it fit?
    Who'd have thought such an easy question would solicit such a variety of responses.

    Just a driver and no track time planned -- go with TKO 600 with .64:1 5th. TKO 600 has a better 1st gear ratio for a light car and as mentioned above, the .64:1 is a good highway cruising ratio. The TKO has been done many times so you're not forging uncharted territory. The farther you get off the reservation the more skill, time, and $$ are required. That quickly becomes an exercise in diminishing returns when planning a driver only.
    33 Hot Rod Super Pro Drag Racer
    33 HR NHRA Cert Roll Cage Build

  24. #21
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    60
    Post Thanks / Like
    Actually Mike223, I am getting a gearset with one OD from PPG.

  25. #22
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    60
    Post Thanks / Like
    Here's a link from Magnus Motorsports. There is a page on PPG that lists the same ratios.

    Fwiw. Double overdrive ..sixth gear is typically cruising in excess of 80mph..

    http://magnusmotorsports.com/product...ed-sequential/

    I am going sequential with most likey straight cut since I will not be driving the car less on the street than track.

  26. #23

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
    GoDadGo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Slidell, Louisiana
    Posts
    3,687
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by NAZ View Post
    1. The farther you get off the reservation the more skill, time, and $$ are required.
    2. That quickly becomes an exercise in diminishing returns when planning a driver only.
    Boy are these two truths self evident.
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 08-13-2019 at 08:28 AM.

  27. #24
    Senior Member Duke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Taxachusetts
    Posts
    363
    Post Thanks / Like
    I have a Coyote, T56 Mag, and IRS in my MK4. Details and pics in my build thread. I'm very happy with the trans. Shifts much better than the TKO IMO. Driveshaft is a challenge, but search for 'world's smallest driveshaft' and you'll find another thread on did on what is needed and a vendor who did it for me.

    I have the close ration T56 Magnum trans with 3:55 gears, but I'm looking to change the rear to 4:08's from Ford Performance this fall/winter.

  28. Likes Paul2STL liked this post
  29. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    515
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Jcdata View Post
    Actually Mike223, I am getting a gearset with one OD from PPG.
    I stand corrected in the realm of $14,000+ USD sequential gearsets.


    If I were going that route I think I'd pay the extra $3000 and get the whole thing complete.



    Or maybe 4 spare T56s instead....
    Last edited by mike223; 08-13-2019 at 09:19 AM.

  30. #26
    Richard Oben's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Kansas City MO
    Posts
    239
    Post Thanks / Like
    Just another useless opinion: Cars this light do not 'need' 6 or 8 or how ever many gears come in new cars. Cars of this era came with 2 speeds, fancy fancy if there were 4. That being said, have had lots cobras with 5 speeds and currently have 2 cars with 6 speeds. Sixth is pretty useless until 80 mph in either car. One is an old BMW other is an LS1 swapped 240Z.

    We have built a lot of cobras: first one in 1998 (good grief I'm old). Things we have noted: NO ONE loves a 4 speed for very long, nostalgia wears off pretty fast when going deaf. Go 5 speed and only use 5th for 60+ mph or if you need to hear, or not be heard, also go with a .64 or whatever comes in the box, your wife and/or ears will thank you. We have guys who think they are Rodney Ram Jet road race guys, they are not, they just have an almost useless 5 gear. .82, yes it drops RPM but not enough to hear. TKO 500 VS 600 is just an input shaft difference really. Lastly, people get ate up with gear ratios: We have never, ever removed a set of 3.55 gears ever, removed: 2.73, 3.08,3.27,3.73, 4.11. We have even swapped out sets in existing cars, some who went to .82 5th. Whoever said 'stay with the build plan' was 100 % right. I can almost guarantee that the hassle with not be worth the extra gear.

    I admit a long useless opinion. HTH, Richard.
    Richard Oben FFR builder www.northracecars.com

    Need help finishing your project we can help here or at your shop.

    FFR GTM #34 first GTM with working AC. 400 hp LS1 w/G50
    FFR coupe 3617CP 331 Stack EFI T-5 IRS Cobra brakes, AC/heat.
    Both cars by NRC, we can build (and have built) any FFR product.
    We also make and sell a ton of great parts for the FFR community.
    Brake kits, AC systems, #1 supplier of Team III wheels.

  31. Likes GoDadGo, rsw81, Boydster liked this post
  32. #27

    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Colgate, WI
    Posts
    113
    Post Thanks / Like
    I'll reserve my judgement on whether or not it was a good choice until I go-kart. I will say for me, figuring out how to make the modifications has been the most rewarding part of the build so far. To each his own I guess, but it does appear I've upset the purists more than once here
    Mk4, IRS, (Forte: 427 with EFI, T-56 MAG, hydraulic clutch, mechanical linkage, reverse lockout control module) (Breeze: Front and Rear Double adjustable QA1's, Cockpit cubby, LED Lights, Fan Shroud, Fan Lower Support, Oil Cooler Coil, power steering hose kit) (Russ: Drop Trunk, Turn Signal)

  33. #28

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
    GoDadGo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Slidell, Louisiana
    Posts
    3,687
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by miller7448 View Post
    I've upset the purists more than once here
    Mr. Miller,

    For the record I think I pretty much own that title.

    https://youtu.be/CaRlqMmKIzk

    Good Luck On Your Build!

    Steve

  34. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Kirkland, WA
    Posts
    235
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Oben View Post
    Lastly, people get ate up with gear ratios: We have never, ever removed a set of 3.55 gears ever, removed: 2.73, 3.08,3.27,3.73, 4.11.
    I love real data! Thanks, Richard!
    Mk4 #8861 Complete kit. Delivered: 27 Apr 2016, Roller: 12 Jan 2018

    Forte: 2016 Coyote & cover, alternator, engine controls, clutch kit, bellhousing, Moroso pan, TKO600, midshift, 3.55 axle, 190lph fuel pump, Spectre air inlet and filter. Breeze: battery forward and switch, fuel pressure regulator and braided hose, radiator shroud and mounts. Replicaparts: radiator panel, under dash panel, weathertight connectors.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Lodestone Billetworks

Visit our community sponsor