Forte's

Visit our community sponsor

Thanks Thanks:  7
Likes Likes:  5
Results 1 to 37 of 37

Thread: Fouling Plugs ... Again

  1. #1
    Papa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Parker, CO
    Posts
    2,331
    Post Thanks / Like

    Unhappy Fouling Plugs ... Again

    Hi guys,

    My car has been pretty solid since swapping over to the Holley Sniper, but I got word from Jeff Kleiner this weekend that it was running like <insert expiative here>. It also ran out of gas, not sure if this may have contributed, but after getting some gas in it, it started but thee cylinders were not firing (5, 7, and 8). I was having plug fouling issues with the FAST EFI, but not with the Holley. I think there could be two possible contributors:

    1. The change in altitude from my place (6,100 ft.) to Kleiner's (about 770 ft.)
    2. Several short run cycles - not getting up to operating temps

    I've got some new plugs headed to Jeff and hope that running the temps up each start will clear it up.

    Any thoughts from the EFI gurus?
    There are 10 types of people in this world;
    those who understand binary and those who don't.

    My Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...ter-Build-9754

  2. #2
    Senior Member rich grsc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    O'Fallon, MO
    Posts
    1,020
    Post Thanks / Like
    You don't say what engine you have, what heads, or what plugs you're using. Plug Gap? Elevation wouldn't have an effect, EFI adjusts for altitude.

  3. #3
    Papa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Parker, CO
    Posts
    2,331
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by rich grsc View Post
    You don't say what engine you have, what heads, or what plugs you're using. Plug Gap? Elevation wouldn't have an effect, EFI adjusts for altitude.
    Engine: BluePrint 347 c.i.
    Heads: BPE HP9009
    Plugs: E3.106
    Gap: Fixed by plug design

    Would elevation have an effect if the Sniper never gets into open loop (learning) mode? The car was shipped from Colorado to Indiana and then not really run once it got there except for moving it in and out of the shop.
    Last edited by Papa; 08-11-2019 at 09:46 PM.
    There are 10 types of people in this world;
    those who understand binary and those who don't.

    My Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...ter-Build-9754

  4. #4
    Senior Member Norm B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Airdrie Alberta
    Posts
    329
    Post Thanks / Like
    A change from high elevation to low should cause a lean condition and not foul the plugs unless the system is over compensating for the change. I believe that something else is going on. Where is the O2 sensor located?

    Good Luck
    Norm

  5. #5
    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    "The High Country", beautiful Flagstaff, AZ
    Posts
    1,407
    Post Thanks / Like
    Papa, you have to look at all the plugs and ALL other pertinent variables before determining a cause. And "fouled plugs" is certainly not enough to go on, especially when apparently only three are fouled. Most here will be assuming this is a rich mixture that fouled the plugs, but oil is another common thing that fouls plugs. Do you know the difference between oil fouled and fuel fouled by looking at the plugs? Oil fouled is generally wet and shinny looking and fuel fouled is typically a flat dry looking residue (except when wet with fuel and that will dry and turn flat as the fuel evaporates but oil does not evaporate and will stay shinny /wet). If it's fuel fouling, why only three? And you mentioned this happened before with a different EFI system -- coincidence? I suspect not.

    Since the car is at Jeff's it would seem he's in the best position to troubleshoot the issue. What's he say?

    I tried to conjure up my long-range psychic troubleshooting powers but with so little to go on I'm not getting any images. Photos of the plugs would help and if you take photos, the ground strap is as important as the rest of the plug when taking a reading.
    33 Hot Rod Super Pro Drag Racer
    33 HR NHRA Cert Roll Cage Build

  6. #6
    Gordon Levy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Maricopa AZ
    Posts
    824
    Post Thanks / Like
    Are you running a MSD box? Blue print seems to want to run a all in one dizzy but the snyper, fitech and fast all want a Multispark ignition box in the system. It really is required.
    Go Fast Part and tech Specialist [email protected]
    http://www.facebook.com/levyracing www.levyracing.com
    99/2000 NASA PSO Champion-2005 west coast FFR challenge series Champions
    Sponsor Tony B's 2007 ST2 National Championship
    2009 NASA TTC runner up-2010 NASA TTB runner up
    Completed over 215 FFR builds in the last 23 years and still counting

  7. #7
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Bloomington, Indiana
    Posts
    4,575
    Post Thanks / Like
    Just to clarify and offer a small amount of additional info---we're saying "fouled plugs" but I have not pulled them and don't intend to until replacements are here. A heat gun on individual header pipes shows that three cylinders are stone cold. That's the extent of my troubleshooting. The massive amounts of black out of the pipes when it finally runs sure seem to indicate a rich condition. I agree that coming from a high altitude to near sea level should make it lean until it compensates. The car has been running progressively worse since it arrived. I've started it probably 20 times while moving it between the house garage to the shop and in & out of different shop bays. Each of those have been around 2 to 4 minutes but I have never run it long enough to reach full operating temperature. It's hard to start; taking at least a solid 5 seconds of cranking...sometimes twice, even three times before it lights. Maybe that will give you guys who know this system some ideas.

    Jeff

  8. #8
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Blacksburg, Va
    Posts
    3,089
    Post Thanks / Like
    When I worked as a Lexus tech, about 10 yrs ago now there were a couple of models that would do exactly the same. These were < 2yr old cars. Each winter we would get a few towed in. Turns out they were usually started 3,4,5 times over the weekend just to me moved in or out or to another parking spot. It happened more in the winter since, of course, they would need extra enrichment to run right. On most the check engine light would come on and the owner would immediately shut it off and call us. Usually, if we could talk them into driving it around the block, it would clear out and run on all cylinders. When one was towed in it usually had a code for misfire in 1-2 cylinders or for a random misfire. I just realized this is kind of a long way to say this may not be too unusual and the fix may just be to not do that many short starts.
    FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Merritt Island, FL
    Posts
    143
    Post Thanks / Like
    Doesn't the Sniper use a conventional type intake manifold? If so, the dead cylinders should be getting fuel. So that would make it sound like an ignition issue.

  10. Thanks speedfreak1211 thanked for this post
  11. #10
    Papa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Parker, CO
    Posts
    2,331
    Post Thanks / Like
    Thanks for all the input and ideas. Without looking at the plugs, I guess we're all just guessing. My previous fouling issues were definitely fuel related. After replacing the EFI, the hyper-rich condition seemed to be fixed. I also just got into the habit of checking the header tube temps and letting it run until the fan cycled and everything seemed to be better. We'll see what Jeff finds when he pulls the plugs.

    Thanks,
    Dave
    There are 10 types of people in this world;
    those who understand binary and those who don't.

    My Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...ter-Build-9754

  12. #11
    Senior Member rich grsc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    O'Fallon, MO
    Posts
    1,020
    Post Thanks / Like
    One of my pet peeves, is starting an engine then letting idle up to temps. A very bad habit to get into, and one way to kill a set of piston rings. Either start it and drive it, or leave it alone. I understand what Jeff has to do to move his work load around, that's not the cause.

  13. Thanks Mark Eaton thanked for this post
  14. #12
    Papa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Parker, CO
    Posts
    2,331
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by rich grsc View Post
    One of my pet peeves, is starting an engine then letting idle up to temps. A very bad habit to get into, and one way to kill a set of piston rings. Either start it and drive it, or leave it alone. I understand what Jeff has to do to move his work load around, that's not the cause.
    I certainly wasn't trying to assign blame. It's not Jeff's fault if my car doesn't want to run. I just want to know where to start looking for solutions. All I know now are the symptoms.
    There are 10 types of people in this world;
    those who understand binary and those who don't.

    My Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...ter-Build-9754

  15. #13

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
    GoDadGo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Slidell, Louisiana
    Posts
    3,687
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1
    I know nothing about these systems, but would it reset to the base parameters if you simply disconnected the battery and then grounded the terminals out about 10-15 minute later to kill any energy that may be stored within the system?

    The reason I'm asking is my friend (Tall Dave) had some random issues with his Holley Sniper running stupid rich so he disconnected the battery, changed the plugs, touched the terminals together and then hooked the battery back up. The system came on line, the misfire went away, the system started learning once again and the car is still running fine.

    Could the software have some sort of hick-up or loop that it got into?
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 08-12-2019 at 10:15 AM.

  16. #14
    Papa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Parker, CO
    Posts
    2,331
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by GoDadGo View Post
    I know nothing about these systems, but would it reset to the base parameters if you simply disconnected the battery and then grounded the terminals out about 10-15 minute later to kill any energy that may be stored within the system?

    The reason I'm asking is my friend (Tall Dave) had some random issues with his Holley Sniper running stupid rich so he disconnected the battery, changed the plugs, touched the terminals together and then hooked the battery back up. The system came on line, the misfire went away, the system started learning once again and the car is still running fine.

    Could the software have some sort of hick-up or loop that it got into?
    It's easy to reset to the base tune by just using the hand-held to go back through the initial setup. All tables get reset to base and everything starts over.

    I'm really hoping that once I can actually start driving the car, that this issue just goes away. Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but I can hope, right?
    Last edited by Papa; 08-12-2019 at 10:28 AM.
    There are 10 types of people in this world;
    those who understand binary and those who don't.

    My Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...ter-Build-9754

  17. Thanks GoDadGo thanked for this post
  18. #15
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Bloomington, Indiana
    Posts
    4,575
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by rich grsc View Post
    ... I understand what Jeff has to do to move his work load around...
    OK, time to come clean...I confess to perhaps starting up Rich's car a little more than necessary simply because it has the nastiest, most a$$ kicking idle of any car I've ever had in

    Jeff

  19. Thanks GoDadGo thanked for this post
    Likes Houdini, RBachman liked this post
  20. #16
    Senior Member rich grsc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    O'Fallon, MO
    Posts
    1,020
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner View Post
    OK, time to come clean...I confess to perhaps starting up Rich's car a little more than necessary simply because it has the nastiest, most a$$ kicking idle of any car I've ever had in

    Jeff
    SO that's why the tank was empty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa View Post
    I certainly wasn't trying to assign blame. It's not Jeff's fault if my car doesn't want to run. I just want to know where to start looking for solutions. All I know now are the symptoms.
    Sorry, thats not what I was thinking, or assuming. In some cases it's what you have to do, but as a normal habit, I wouldn't do it. Hope it'll sort it's self out, or it will be something simple.

  21. #17

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
    GoDadGo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Slidell, Louisiana
    Posts
    3,687
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by rich grsc View Post
    SO that's why the tank was empty. .
    Could It Be That 8-Stacker Setup Having Something To Do With The Empty Tank?

  22. #18
    Senior Member rich grsc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    O'Fallon, MO
    Posts
    1,020
    Post Thanks / Like
    Now I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

  23. #19

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
    GoDadGo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Slidell, Louisiana
    Posts
    3,687
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by rich grsc View Post
    Now I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
    Thought you were running an 8 stack F.I. set up.

  24. #20
    Senior Member rich grsc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    O'Fallon, MO
    Posts
    1,020
    Post Thanks / Like
    I am, thats a bit of humor

  25. #21
    Richard Oben's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Kansas City MO
    Posts
    236
    Post Thanks / Like
    Tell the sniper the engine is smaller, different cam, different intake whatever it takes to trim the fuel back. We have had to do this on other cars. The sniper runs on a table, which table is set by type of cam, displacement and every other parameter put in the hand held. If the sniper is on table A and needs table M there is no way for it to get to M if all the parameters are set to A. I hope this makes sense. The Sniper (like ALL Holley stuff) is set up to be FAT, why because fat is safe lean is death. PS Run it once started. HTH, Richard.
    Richard Oben FFR builder www.northracecars.com

    Need help finishing your project we can help here or at your shop.

    FFR GTM #34 first GTM with working AC. 400 hp LS1 w/G50
    FFR coupe 3617CP 331 Stack EFI T-5 IRS Cobra brakes, AC/heat.
    Both cars by NRC, we can build (and have built) any FFR product.
    We also make and sell a ton of great parts for the FFR community.
    Brake kits, AC systems, #1 supplier of Team III wheels.

  26. Thanks Papa thanked for this post
    Likes GoDadGo liked this post
  27. #22
    Papa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Parker, CO
    Posts
    2,331
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Oben View Post
    Tell the sniper the engine is smaller, different cam, different intake whatever it takes to trim the fuel back. We have had to do this on other cars. The sniper runs on a table, which table is set by type of cam, displacement and every other parameter put in the hand held. If the sniper is on table A and needs table M there is no way for it to get to M if all the parameters are set to A. I hope this makes sense. The Sniper (like ALL Holley stuff) is set up to be FAT, why because fat is safe lean is death. PS Run it once started. HTH, Richard.
    This is great input, and something I was wondering myself. I intend to take the car to a local tuner once it's done and have them really dial it in for my intended use; street and some cruises into the high country. What would you recommend dialing the displacement down to? I entered 347, but perhaps 330 would be a place to start?

    Thanks,
    Dave
    There are 10 types of people in this world;
    those who understand binary and those who don't.

    My Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...ter-Build-9754

  28. Likes GoDadGo liked this post
  29. #23
    Senior Member rich grsc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    O'Fallon, MO
    Posts
    1,020
    Post Thanks / Like
    An easy way to fool the computer when it's too rich, change your injector size in the computer setup. My FAST system is rich, and even when I target the correct AFR, it, won't pull enough fuel. I changed my inject size from 49# to 59#, and now the system can pull enough fuel to correct the rich conditions. The FAST XFI isn't a cake walk by no means .

  30. Thanks Papa thanked for this post
    Likes GoDadGo liked this post
  31. #24
    Papa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Parker, CO
    Posts
    2,331
    Post Thanks / Like
    Jeff pulled the plugs and they all look like they are covered in black soot. I'll get a picture posted when I get home this evening. I think step one will be to play with the Sniper to trick it into feeding less fuel by reducing the displacement value. I'll also call the builder and see if they have any recommendations on what to try.
    There are 10 types of people in this world;
    those who understand binary and those who don't.

    My Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...ter-Build-9754

  32. #25
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    5
    Post Thanks / Like
    Could be a number of things; stuck injector, bad O2 sensor or perhaps ignition. Visit the Holley Sniper Tech Forum, lots of good information there.

  33. #26
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    86
    Post Thanks / Like
    Check fuel pressure. Could be something simple like a plugged return line. I have seen fuel pressure spiked way up due to restricted return flow and causing way rich condition. Also would be nice to see how close to fouled are the remaining 5 plugs. If it is limited to just 3 cylinders it is an injector issue or bad plug wires. IMO
    #8869 Delivered 5/11/2016 Traditional donor build using 1994 Mustang

  34. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Heart of Dixie, Alabama
    Posts
    822
    Post Thanks / Like
    If you put the intake on, it might be sucking oil from the valley on those cylinders. Would be the result of a bad gasket or fit.
    Another thing to check, are these cylinders close to the pcv port on the intake. Sometimes the wrong pcv valve or no valve or no baffle in the valve cover lets raw oil into the intake
    Last edited by Railroad; 08-16-2019 at 10:32 AM.
    20th Anniversary Mk IV, A50XS Coyote, TKO 600, Trunk Drop Box, Trunk Battery Box, Cubby Hole, Seat Heaters, Radiator hanger and shroud.

  35. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Merritt Island, FL
    Posts
    143
    Post Thanks / Like
    I had a problem with one cylinder seemingly running rich and fouling the plug. I think it could have been due to the plug terminal not fully snapping on the plug. I went over all the plugs and made sure the terminals were fully seated. Problem gone.

  36. #29
    Papa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Parker, CO
    Posts
    2,331
    Post Thanks / Like
    I got a response from the builder. They agree that the short start stop cycles are probably what's causing the fouling and recommended a different plug.
    There are 10 types of people in this world;
    those who understand binary and those who don't.

    My Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...ter-Build-9754

  37. #30
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Bloomington, Indiana
    Posts
    4,575
    Post Thanks / Like
    All 8 looked the same; dry but covered in heavy black soot. There is no oil. I installed a fresh set of plugs and it lit right off on all 8. I hypothesized to Dave that the odd racing plugs might have been a contributor however retracted that (and spared Dave my "don't try to use race car parts on a street car" lecture) when he told me that it also fouled a set of conventional plugs. I took a few pics but they don't really show anything but a set o very black plugs.

    Jeff

  38. #31
    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    "The High Country", beautiful Flagstaff, AZ
    Posts
    1,407
    Post Thanks / Like
    Papa, maybe you need one of these: https://www.harborfreight.com/pneuma...k+plug+cleaner

    Or a Holley carb...
    33 Hot Rod Super Pro Drag Racer
    33 HR NHRA Cert Roll Cage Build

  39. #32
    Papa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Parker, CO
    Posts
    2,331
    Post Thanks / Like
    Here's the picture Jeff sent me:



    The plugs that came in the engine were a Champion plug, but I can't recall the specific number. When they fouled, I looked up what the E3 equivalent was and that's where the E3.106 plugs came from. After talking the BPE today, they recommended changing to Autolite 3924 plugs (E3.48 equivalent). Jeff had made the same recommendation. So, I'll swap those when I get the car back or if they foul again before Jeff can get rid of it and he has to do it again.

    Dave
    There are 10 types of people in this world;
    those who understand binary and those who don't.

    My Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...ter-Build-9754

  40. #33
    Papa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Parker, CO
    Posts
    2,331
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by NAZ View Post
    Papa, maybe you need one of these: https://www.harborfreight.com/pneuma...k+plug+cleaner

    Or a Holley carb...
    No carb for me. I'll get this worked out eventually.
    There are 10 types of people in this world;
    those who understand binary and those who don't.

    My Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...ter-Build-9754

  41. #34
    Senior Member cv2065's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Posts
    1,119
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa View Post
    After talking the BPE today, they recommended changing to Autolite 3924 plugs (E3.48 equivalent). Jeff had made the same recommendation.
    I swapped to those a few weeks ago.
    MKIV Roadster - #9380 - Complete Kit - Delivered 7/17/18
    Blueprint 427, TKO 600, IRS
    Build Thread: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...V-Build-Thread

  42. #35
    i.e.427's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    "The i.e." SoCal
    Posts
    245
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa View Post
    No carb for me. I'll get this worked out eventually.
    What you are seeing is a classic start-up enrichment issue. Once you get the car on the road the problem should go away. If you are brave, you could probably go in and change the enrichment table for start up and lessen the time (or temperature) to limit the enrichment process. Or, leave it alone and let the self-learning algorithm of the ECU handle it.
    i.e.427 is located in the Southern California Inland Empire. We help Factory Five customers and builders realize their dreams by providing assembly, fabrication and maintenance for their Factory Five projects.

  43. #36
    Papa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Parker, CO
    Posts
    2,331
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by i.e.427 View Post
    What you are seeing is a classic start-up enrichment issue. Once you get the car on the road the problem should go away. If you are brave, you could probably go in and change the enrichment table for start up and lessen the time (or temperature) to limit the enrichment process. Or, leave it alone and let the self-learning algorithm of the ECU handle it.
    Thanks,

    This is what I suspect as well. Once I have the car back and legal, I plan to have it properly tuned on a chassis dyno. I'll have to find a shop locally. I used one several years ago, but haven't looked to see if they are still in business.
    There are 10 types of people in this world;
    those who understand binary and those who don't.

    My Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...ter-Build-9754

  44. #37
    Senior Member Norm B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Airdrie Alberta
    Posts
    329
    Post Thanks / Like
    You may need to clean or replace the O2 sensor(s). That much sooting on the plugs and out the exhaust means they could be fouled.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Racing Adventures

Visit our community sponsor