351w is somewhat seized. Need advice

[robertjamesellis]

Hey everyone. Not sure what has happened here. Have a 351w installed. Have had it running many times and even did a couple go karts around the neighborhood. I had been working on the timing earlier and got it set perfect and the engine was growling beautifully. I didn't like the way I ran my fuel line so redid it. Hooked everything back up and filled the floats to start. Had to turn the engine over several times but never got it to start and noticed my fuel line wasn't holding. So I took it off again and redid the connections and now it seems to hold a level in the floats. But still wasn't able to start. So I did a lot of cranking and the engine turned slower and slower. Thought I had wore out the battery so replaced that even though voltage check seemed good but low. Did more cranking with the new battery but turns slow. Removed the serpentine belt and the pulled all the plugs thinking maybe I screwed something up with the cranking. Put a bar on the crankshaft nut and gave it a turn. Didn't turn easy at all. Well, hoping it was the starter maybe I fried that and it seized. Pulled the starter and no luck. The engine still turns really hard. This is where I swallowed hard and cussed several times and began to realize I have a much bigger problem. I've had no other problems with the engine. When running oil pressure was great, engine temp never got over 180 and the fan would come on at 175. When I'm turning the crank with the bar I'm certain I'm hearing something grinding together somewhere. My instincts are telling me its a bearing somewhere and this is a major rebuild. I'm not the most experienced with engines and I'm certain I have to pull this but was hoping somebody had some ideas before I dig into this deeply. All HELP! appreciated.

[Bob Cowan]

I would squirt about 1/2 ounce (15cc) of engine oil in to each cylinder, Then try turning it over with the bar.

[NAZ]

Not likely you seized a bearing or anything else internal to your engine with the operation you described above. However, if you are turning the crank by simply using a socket on the bolt that holds your damper on the crank snout you will be very unhappy with the results. There are special adapters you bolt onto the crank to use a ratchet to turn the engine over. These are designed for that purpose and unlike the bolt that holds the damper on, these adapters will not break off the bolt threaded into the crank snout. You can purchase these from Speedway Motors. But do not turn the crank by placing a wrench on the damper bolt or next you will be attempting to drill out a broken bolt in the end of your crank and if you think that's as simple as it sounds you'd be wrong. I use one of these on every engine build: https://www.speedwaymotors.com/COMP-...rd,216569.html

Also, if you never spun the engine over by hand before this problem then you really have no reference to gauge how difficult that is, even with the plugs out. There is a lot of internal friction resisting you turning the crank and that's normal. How much? Depends, and unless you have turned the engine by hand before you really won't be able to judge if it's normal or not. But you do have some reference in how fast the engine cranks with the starter so pull the plugs and with a fully charged battery crank the engine without plugs. If you by chance introduced a bunch of fuel into the cylinders while messing with your carb you will see liquid fuel running out the plug holes. And if it cranks at least the same if not better than normal you can eliminate seized engine internals. But this is all academic as by now there has been enough time lapse that even if you did introduce lots of fuel into the cylinders it has all leaked past the rings and into the oil pan where it has worked to dilute your oil.

But there are other things that can cause the engine to be hard to crank. If that is still the case with the plugs removed take a systematic approach to troubleshooting and look at things that can cause an engine to be hard to crank. Here are just a few ideas, you can probably think of others yourself. Look at the starter wiring and ground from battery to engine block to ensure you have good connections and properly sized wire, the starter itself can be bad or installed incorrectly and binding when engaged. You mentioned a noise when you turn the crankshaft, is the flywheel or pressure plate contacting the back of the engine or bellhousing (think loose fasteners allowing the flywheel or pressure plate to move) -- these are the type of things you can be checking before pulling the engine.

[CraigS]

Depending on what you see following Naz's suggestions, next step is pull both valve covers and then the oil pan. If you have trouble getting the pan to drop because of the hump on the engine plate, loosen the bolts holding the bell housing to the block so you have 1/8-1/4 inch clearance, and remove the trans mount bolts. Now you can pry the trans back that 1/4 in and the pan will drop free.

[davekp]

My experience has been that engines are much harder to turn by hand than you would think, so that analysis might be misleading. Slowing while cranking is very often an issue with the power to the starter- recheck the connections and grounds. Also, be sure to depress the clutch while cranking.

[robertjamesellis]

I will give that a shot next. Thanks.

[robertjamesellis]

Hey Naz. Thanks for the advice and insight. I'll get the turning nut before I regret not having it. I have turned the engine over by hand before and its definitely harder. And not just a little harder, a lot harder. To the point I was getting a little worried about breaking something off. I like your systematic approach. I've ruled out the starter and wiring. This is based on my battery replacement, amps check and the difficulty when turning over the engine by hand. Even if the wiring was troubling, the engine shouldn't turn over with that much difficulty. So I have to figure out that problem. I'm thinking like you that it may be the flywheel or pressure plate coming into contact with something. I'm going to check that over next and see if there is an issue there.

[robertjamesellis]

Depending on what you see following Naz's suggestions, next step is pull both valve covers and then the oil pan. If you have trouble getting the pan to drop because of the hump on the engine plate, loosen the bolts holding the bell housing to the block so you have 1/8-1/4 inch clearance, and remove the trans mount bolts. Now you can pry the trans back that 1/4 in and the pan will drop free.

That will be my next step after looking over the pressure plate.

[robertjamesellis]

I noodled on what Naz had to say about the clutch plate so last night I remembered I had bypassed the clutch switch so I could turn the key without sitting in the seat. I figured maybe something was rubbing wrong or jammed up by trying to start with the clutch in. So I connected the starter, press in the clutch this time and gave it a turn. It seemed to spin ok. I then gave a gentle nudge on the crank with my bar and it turned easily like it had originally. Easy but with some expected resistance. Thinking problem solved I reinstalled the plugs, wires and serpentine belt and tried to start. It turned over great for a minute or two. Never started. Then started slowing down again. I did notice a slight scraping sound coming from somewhere inside the engine. A noise that shouldn't be there. So I pulled the plugs and serpentine belt again and tried to give it a nudge with the bar. Ok, back to resistance again. So i took Bob's advice and shot a couple squirts of oil into the pistons. I then gave it a spin with the clutch in (always clutch in now) and it was spinning like normal again. Little resistance. I then gave each piston a couple more squirts and let it sit a little and then spun the engine. Spinning great like it should. Ran out of time to get the plugs in and see if it starts. Will have to get to that Sat night.

Quick question. Its a carbed 427 stroker if that matters. With a mechanical fuel pump as an FYI. I'm thinking the cylinder and rings were not being properly lubricated during my start cycles and that was the strange noise I heard. Anything I should be worried about there? Would any damage be done that I should be concerned about? Anything else I should be doing. Appreciate all the help and advice.

[NAZ]

The greatest internal friction comes from the rings on the cylinder walls. The cylinder walls are lubricated by oil splash when the engine is running and fuel can wash that oil off the cylinders if your engine runs rich, you pump the accelerator pump(s) without the engine running, or introduce raw fuel into the cylinders by any other means. Another issue is long-term storage where the engine is not run and not prepped with fogging oil -- many times rust will develop on the cylinder walls. This can increase the friction and like a lack of lube, can lead to premature ring / cylinder wear. Not knowing your situation, I'm just throwing this information out there for your benefit. When you lubed the cylinders you saw a reduction in friction and that is to be expected, at least to some degree. Even more so if you have rusty cylinder walls.

But lubricating the cylinders would do nothing to change the friction from a bearing or lifter if that was causing excessive friction. And while it may be possible to have an intermittent increase in friction from a bearing or lifter, I've never experienced this in the last 50-plus years of working on engines so I tend to dismiss that as likely. But, if I'm understanding what you wrote above, it appears you also saw a reduction in friction when cycling the clutch. That I find interesting and worthy of digging deeper into.

But even before that, from reading your previous post I'm still not sure you have verified that the starter is not binding when engaged with the ring gear. I've seen this several times before. Starter engages "tight" into the ring gear and will even occasionally not retract. There is a spec for tooth engagement clearance -- have you verified yours is within spec ? Don't assum it's correct if you have not measured it. And if the started gear stays engaged it can also cause the engine hard to bar over. Sorry, I'm anal about checking off all the boxes when troubleshooting an issue.

https://static.speedwaymotors.com/pdf/91067433.pdf

[CraigS]

Several years back a friend put together a 347 using top shelf parts. Kept having problems but I no longer remember the details. Turned out the crank main journal that has the thrust bearing surfaces on the main bearing (#3 main I think) was not machined properly and was wearing out that main bearing insert. Next time you are working on it and have a period where it rotates normally, w/ the engine stopped, take the key out of the ignition and put it in your pocket. Now go to the front and put your hand on the crank pulley and have a helper push the clutch pedal down and hold it a few seconds. Did the crank pulley move forward? The spec I found is .004-.008 inches. So it may move a little but hopefully no more than .008".

[robertjamesellis]

Several years back a friend put together a 347 using top shelf parts. Kept having problems but I no longer remember the details. Turned out the crank main journal that has the thrust bearing surfaces on the main bearing (#3 main I think) was not machined properly and was wearing out that main bearing insert. Next time you are working on it and have a period where it rotates normally, w/ the engine stopped, take the key out of the ignition and put it in your pocket. Now go to the front and put your hand on the crank pulley and have a helper push the clutch pedal down and hold it a few seconds. Did the crank pulley move forward? The spec I found is .004-.008 inches. So it may move a little but hopefully no more than .008".

I'm learning more everyday. I'll check this out next time I'm working on it. Out of town this week.

[robertjamesellis]

Update. So the saga continues for me. This weekend after letting if sit overnight with the oil in the cylinders I again spun the engine with plugs out and belt off. Seemed to turn around great and didn't notice any strange noises. I put the plugs back in and belt back on gave it another turn with the starter. Seemed to turn fast and easy at first and got a "cough" out of the engine but not start. then I noticed as I was cranking, it would crank fast, then slow like it was catching and then spin fast again. It did this for a few attempted starting cycles. Then I noticed some smoke coming up from the engine and stopped everything I was doing. I tracked the smoke down to the starter. Touched it and that thing was too hot to even touch. checked the main wires from the batter and they were also hot to the touch. Not too hot to bear but hotter than I've ever know them to be and other cars I had. So one starter scrapped. Now I'm asking myself. Did I burn out the starter trying to turn this thing over because it was more difficult than it should have been. Or did it not turn over properly because the starter was already frying itself. I purchased a new starter and will put that in later this week when I'm back from my business trip. This is really sucking the fun out of this project!

[Fast&Loud]

Rob, sorry to hear about the problems. But I’m loving this thread! So much good advice, and I’m enjoying the learning.

And yes, these types of problems are no fun. I was rebuilding a 351W about 35 years ago with a few friends. I remember talking on the phone with the sales person when I ordered my cam. I specifically wanted one for a 351W and not a 289/302 (different firing order.) When it came time to fire it up it just wouldn’t. We tried fiddling with the timing, even twisting the distributer 180 degrees, a number of other rabbit holes. Finally, an old-timer walked over, asked what symptoms we were having, then said, “wire it for a 302.” I protested saying it was a 351W cam. He repeated himself. So, we rewired it and VAAROOOMMMM! Yeah, that experience (and others) sucked the fun out of it. BUT, I learned a lot, and even remember the lesson 35 years later.

Once day I’ll buy my kit and it’ll be my turn again. That’s part of the deal.

[Hurman]

A lot of auto parts stores, at least Advance will test your starter and see if it is pulling to many amps. If it is binding or going bad in one way or another they can tell you right then and try to sell you another one.

[Itchief]

Just a thought have you removed the distributor cap and cranked the engine to see if the cam is turning the distributor when the engine is turning

Good luck

Rick

[Big Blocker]

Just a note on the firing order comment; the firing order for early 302's is 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8. For later 302's (5.0's) and all factory 351's is; 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 . . . broken into two blocks of four cylinders (1-3-7-2 & 6-5-4-8), the difference is the center two cylinders are "swapped" between the early and the late order. This condition will, if wired wrong for the cam installed, cause an engine to fire [correctly] on 1-2-6-8, possibly giving a smooth crank as it fires correctly on those four cylinders - but - also causing a "strained" crank on the other four as they are possibly firing on the compression stroke causing a back pressure. This issue was brought to early FORD guys when we "upgraded" early 289 and 302's with 351 cams. When FORD went to EFI, they determined that the later (351) order was more efficient in producing torque, hence all later small blocks run with 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8.

That being said, you need to pull the valve covers and verify the cam timing . . .

Doc

[robertjamesellis]

Just a thought have you removed the distributor cap and cranked the engine to see if the cam is turning the distributor when the engine is turning

Good luck

Rick

I'll check again tonight. I want to check off any potential problem.

[robertjamesellis]

Just a note on the firing order comment; the firing order for early 302's is 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8. For later 302's (5.0's) and all factory 351's is; 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 . . . broken into two blocks of four cylinders (1-3-7-2 & 6-5-4-8), the difference is the center two cylinders are "swapped" between the early and the late order. This condition will, if wired wrong for the cam installed, cause an engine to fire [correctly] on 1-2-6-8, possibly giving a smooth crank as it fires correctly on those four cylinders - but - also causing a "strained" crank on the other four as they are possibly firing on the compression stroke causing a back pressure. This issue was brought to early FORD guys when we "upgraded" early 289 and 302's with 351 cams. When FORD went to EFI, they determined that the later (351) order was more efficient in producing torque, hence all later small blocks run with 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8.

That being said, you need to pull the valve covers and verify the cam timing . . .

Doc

Hi Doc,
I would look into this if it wasn't for the fact that the engine was running perfectly smooth prior to me changing out the fuel line. It was built by Mike Forte and Dynoed at 460Hp. I'm fairly confident if that was an issue it would have come up before. Also, I didn't change the wires, the timing or anything after that. Only swapped out the fuel line and tried to get the air out of the line by filling the floats and cranking the engine a few times so the mechanical pump could fill the lines. That method worked like a champ twice before but for some reason this go round the cranking has seemed to either kill the starter and/or gum up the engine somewhere so its turning over hard. I'm putting on the new starter tonight and I'll see if its still turning over hard. At least I would be able to eliminate the starter and batter as an issue.

[Sdonnel]

Have you reached out to Mike with this issue? If not, I'm sure Mike's experience will help you resolve this very quickly. He goes above and beyond with his customer service and after sales support.

Scott

[robertjamesellis]

The latest. Installed the new starter tonight no problems. Spun the engine like crazy the first minute then started doing as before. Would spin then get sluggish then spin. At the end it spit out a cough of smoke. I have a video of it here. I checked the distributer and its spinning fine. Checked the fuel floats and noticed the front float seems to not fill up as it spins. I filled the float manually and adjusted the float just to the point it started moving when filled at the mid line. Not sure if thats part of the problem but it wouldn't explain the slow spin. Unless the mechanical pump is now hanging up. Has anyone experienced anything like this? Should I pull the pump and check it next?

[Itchief]

while You were working on the fuel lines did you happen to move the distributor and change the timing
If the base timing is advanced to far the spark will happen too early and cause the issues you are having
You may want to try turning the distributor a few degrees counter clockwise and then try to start the engine
Once it starts verify your base and total timing advance

Rick

[NAZ]

Robert, the video shows a hard starting engine that has too much base lead (too much base ignition advance). Classic signs of this are the engine kicking back and backfire (cough) out the carb. This is easily fixed by properly setting the base timing. This can also happen if the firing order is incorrect but I believe you confirmed earlier that was not the case. So, have you confirmed the firing order is correct? As Doc stated above, the only way to be certain is to pull the valve covers and actually verify that the cam and plug firing order match.

But what about the issue of it being hard to bar over by hand. The hard starting does not necessarily have anything to do with hard to bar the engine over. Hard to bar over is a serious problem and needs to be addressed before starting the engine. If you have something binding you don't want to start the engine -- that can be a very bad thing. You need to start systematically troubleshooting the hard to bar issue before worrying about getting the engine to start. A seized engine won't heal itself and if you persist in starting it with a binding issue your problems will quickly become exponentially worse.

BTW, I feel a need to point out something important I saw in that video and I've seen dozens of times. When you get a backfire out the carb and the engine is not running it often starts a fire in the carb. I see people experience a backfire out the intake and simply shut the engine off, and many times walk away. You don't want a fire in the carb -- when it backfires out the carb continue cranking the engine momentarily at WOT to suck that flame through the intake and into the cylinders. If you have a scoop, velocity stack, air cleaner or anything covering the carb you can't always tell if there is a flame in the carb. Perhaps you've seen a round burnt spot on a car hood and wondered how that happened. If you work with engines outfitted with a carb you will experience backfiring out the intake, be ready for fire to follow.

[bobl]

That is definitely an ignition timing issue. Did you possibly not get the distributor tightened up good when you were adjusting it and subsequently the distributor got turned while you were working on the fuel line? Get #1 at tdc and pull the cap to make sure the rotor is pointing correctly. If the distributor is tight but the rotor is not correct it is possible the pin sheered on the distributor drive gear allowing it to rotate. I will assume you did not remove and replace plug wires so the firing order should be OK.

[robertjamesellis]

Robert, the video shows a hard starting engine that has too much base lead (too much base ignition advance). Classic signs of this are the engine kicking back and backfire (cough) out the carb. This is easily fixed by properly setting the base timing. This can also happen if the firing order is incorrect but I believe you confirmed earlier that was not the case. So, have you confirmed the firing order is correct? As Doc stated above, the only way to be certain is to pull the valve covers and actually verify that the cam and plug firing order match.

But what about the issue of it being hard to bar over by hand. The hard starting does not necessarily have anything to do with hard to bar the engine over. Hard to bar over is a serious problem and needs to be addressed before starting the engine. If you have something binding you don't want to start the engine -- that can be a very bad thing. You need to start systematically troubleshooting the hard to bar issue before worrying about getting the engine to start. A seized engine won't heal itself and if you persist in starting it with a binding issue your problems will quickly become exponentially worse.

Hey Naz. Yes, I confirmed again tonight the firing order is correct. I hear you about the timing. I'll check that again but like I said before, I had set the timing to 14 degrees and it was running great. I guess I can back off that and return to base timing. But first I'll keep poking around and see why the binding. Can't be too many things. Like I said it spins fine with the plugs out, belt off and clutch in. So I guess I'll check the water pump, power steering and alternator to make sure those are fine and finally check the pump. If its none of those, then it has to be something internal and time to start pulling some things off and see what the issue is.

[robertjamesellis]

while You were working on the fuel lines did you happen to move the distributor and change the timing
If the base timing is advanced to far the spark will happen too early and cause the issues you are having
You may want to try turning the distributor a few degrees counter clockwise and then try to start the engine
Once it starts verify your base and total timing advance

Rick

I"m hearing you on the timing. Time to recheck that. I might have bumped something without realizing it.

[robertjamesellis]

That is definitely an ignition timing issue. Did you possibly not get the distributor tightened up good when you were adjusting it and subsequently the distributor got turned while you were working on the fuel line? Get #1 at tdc and pull the cap to make sure the rotor is pointing correctly. If the distributor is tight but the rotor is not correct it is possible the pin sheered on the distributor drive gear allowing it to rotate. I will assume you did not remove and replace plug wires so the firing order should be OK.

Something must have happened. I'll be checking the timing tomorrow night and confirm and check all other possible binding points. And no, I didn't move any wires on the distributor and confirmed they were in the right order on the plugs. At least now I have somewhere to focus on. Thanks for the help.

[Itchief]

Touch base with Mike I’m sure he can tell you the base and total timing advance off the top of his head

[CraigS]

14 deg would be a common base timing. Since it won't start you won't be able to use a timing light yet. You will need to confirm cyl #1 (passenger side front) is on the compression stroke either by watching the valves or by pulling the plug, turning the engine w/ a finger over the plug hole so you can feel the pressure build up. As the pressure builds, watch your timing marks and stop turning when you are at zero degrees. Now pull the dist cap and see if the rotor is pointed at the cyl#1 wire in the cap.

[Blue Viking]

So the only thing you have touched on the engine itself is are the floats? I wouldn't be surprised if what you are experiencing is hydraulic lock due to too much fuel in the cylinders caused by malfunctioning/ badly adjusted float valves.

[cob427sc]

It can't be a hydraulic lock or the engine would act like it is seized. My guess, from past experience, is you are washing the oil off the walls when you continually spin the engine and resistance builds on the rings. It can also be caused by a high float allowing gas to spill into the engine. Now the real caution -- check your oil level and see if it has increased or shows signs of dilution by all that gasoline ending up in the crankcase. I witnessed a VW engine explode the entire crankcase when the ignition finally fired! Broke the case in half and started when heck of a fire.

[Big Blocker]

I absolutely have to agree with NAZ here, the video shows an engine with way too much initial timing. You definitely need to pull the valve covers and verify timing "sync" with valve position and distributor position.

Also, 351's are known for having distributor gear issues. Like mentioned above, check the gear and the roll pin.

Doc

[robertjamesellis]

It can't be a hydraulic lock or the engine would act like it is seized. My guess, from past experience, is you are washing the oil off the walls when you continually spin the engine and resistance builds on the rings. It can also be caused by a high float allowing gas to spill into the engine. Now the real caution -- check your oil level and see if it has increased or shows signs of dilution by all that gasoline ending up in the crankcase. I witnessed a VW engine explode the entire crankcase when the ignition finally fired! Broke the case in half and started when heck of a fire.

I am thinking this is whats happening as well. I was working so hard to get the fuel lines filled I believe I over did it. When I put oil down the cylinders it helped. Now I'm concerned about the gas in the oil. I'll check and that and likely will just do a complete oil change to be safe.

[robertjamesellis]

This has me worried. The cam or distributor would have to have slipped to throw off the timing. I didn't touch this prior to it running great and the distributor location is exactly where it was before. Nevertheless I'm going to verify timing again tonight.

[robertjamesellis]

This is the process I followed when I checked the timing and it lined up perfectly with the timing marks that Mike Forte left for me. Again, it was running great after I did all this. The problem started when I was trying to get fuel through the new line.

[robertjamesellis]

So the only thing you have touched on the engine itself is are the floats? I wouldn't be surprised if what you are experiencing is hydraulic lock due to too much fuel in the cylinders caused by malfunctioning/ badly adjusted float valves.

I'm leaning this direction. I had been fiddling with the float trying to get fuel flow and know too much gas ended up in the cylinder. I hadn't experienced any issues with this before and didn't know anything hydraulic lock so was not concerned with too much gas. Now I am. I think it all contributed to the extra friction in the cylinders and the slow start. Also explains why it spun well after oiling the cyclinders and letting it sit. I'm going to open it all up again and make sure gas is not sitting int the cylinders. I do feel good about the floats now. Gas levels are right in the middle of the site holes and definitely flowing.

[Avalanche325]

Not sure if you have done this. Take the cap off of the distributor and make sure that it is actually turning.

Pull the dipstick and smell the oil. If the level is up, or it smells like gas, change the oil.

[Big Blocker]

Just for conversation sake, if you pull the plugs (to eliminate a timing issue and a hydro-lock condition) and block off the fuel line (to eliminate a fuel flooding the cylinders issue), would the engine spin very fast, easily and consistently? If yes, then the problem isn't a mechanical failure somewhere internally (short of a timing gear problem). Lets rule out an internal engine bind by testing the rotating assembly with the starter alone. If it turn over easily with a consistent motion (no fast and slow positions - the same speed), then we can start looking at the "run systems" (fuel and ignition) . . .

Doc

[AC Bill]

My first thought as well was, it has to much fuel, it's washing the cylinders, and contaminating the oil. Flooding would also mean the engine wouldn't fire.

When starters really heat up from continuous, or multiple cranking attempts, they will slow down. They can also start to sound different, then when cold. That could explain why the starter's are burning up, and/or becoming slower and slower after continuous cranking. Oil pressure during cranking, is to low to really lubricate properly, so the high friction areas in the engine are also getting hot, thus further strain is put on the starter the longer it's cranking. Let the starter cool down between attempts, and only crank it for a short time.

[Boydster]

I'm with Doc. Pull the plugs, plug the fuel line. Spin it with the starter. That will knock your troubleshooting in half... is it mechanical in the rotating assembly or is it in a supporting system?