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Thread: Basic vs Complete kits. Donor compatibility with later models.

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    Basic vs Complete kits. Donor compatibility with later models.

    Hey guru's,

    I'm planning my build, and am considering going Basic, and then getting a donor car.

    The concern I have with this is that I'd like a later injected engine (say 32v 4.6L) and 5 speed with less miles on them. Yet we're limited to 1997 - 2004 Mustangs.

    Could I get a later year/model?, and if so, what wouldn't work, that would on a 2004?

    I understand there's around an 8 month lag on order to delivery, so will have time to remove and refurbish the parts I can use.

    Trivia question. Anyone know if a MK five is in the winds?

    Thanks in advance.

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    I can't answer any of your donor questions, but I'm pretty sure there's no Mk5 roadster in the works. I believe Dave Smith has said that the Mk4 was the culmination of all they've wanted to do. They've also released some incremental improvements in the 20th and 25th anniversary cars that they've rolled into the regular models afterwards.
    MkIV Roadster build: Gen 2 Coyote, IRS, TKO600. Ordered 10/24/18. Delivered 1/29/19. Engine installed 8/8/21. First start 9/12/21. First go-kart 9/17/21. Off to paint 4/11/22. Back from paint 12/30/22. Build thread here.

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    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    X2 on no future Roadster versions in the works. At least that's what Dave Smith says publicly. No reason to doubt it. As mentioned, lots of incremental changes and updates since the Mk4 was released. Including a freshly tooled body. So it's all good. The lead time is longer than 8 months. Pretty sure it's approaching a year. $1000 deposit gets you in line. You can make changes right up to a couple weeks before your build date. So don't feel like you have to answer every question before ordering.

    Sorry, I haven't done donor builds so not much help there. My only comment would be I understand donor for engine and perhaps transmission if that's your plan. After that, the pickings get a little light with the later model Mustangs. Not too many useable parts. Some have found it easier to deal only with those parts rather than bothering with a complete donor car.
    Last edited by edwardb; 04-05-2022 at 05:49 AM.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

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    Senior Member zee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edwardb View Post
    You can make changes right up to a couple weeks before your build date. So don't feel like you have to answer every question before ordering.

    Word of warning, if you delete something then you don't get the money back (you haven't paid for it) but you pay the *new* price for the addition. So there is potentially a cost to adding stuff later or changing things after a price increase.
    Complete novice who doesn't know what he's doing.
    MKIV with BPE 347 & TKX. IRS. A crap ton of mods.
    Build thread

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    Call Richard at Northracecars.com. If he can’t answer your questions, no one can. By the way, your good all the way to 1996 with those models. Ask me how I know.
    MK IV Base Kit #9370 w/ FFR Lower Control Arms, donor 1996 Cobra 4.6 L DOHC; stage 2 Comp Cams, Manley forged Pistons & Rods, IMRC Delete Plates, T-45 transmission HD extra build w/ single disconnect reverse mod, 3-link w/ Koni Coil Overs 3:73 rear end. Painted and re-assembled Jan 2022.

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    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    I would not recommend going w/ a donor. First, there is no single year Mustang that has the best parts for an FFR. Second, at this point in time most any donor you choose is really old so the parts are not in very good shape. Example, do you really want to use the radiator from a 2004 Mustang? There is nothing wrong w/ doing a budget build, but I think the best way to use donor parts is buy them as you need them from a salvage yard. This way for instance, you can get the best year rear axle as well as the best year engine, which are not from the same year Mustang.
    FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.

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    Senior Member Blitzboy54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigS View Post
    I would not recommend going w/ a donor. First, there is no single year Mustang that has the best parts for an FFR. Second, at this point in time most any donor you choose is really old so the parts are not in very good shape. Example, do you really want to use the radiator from a 2004 Mustang? There is nothing wrong w/ doing a budget build, but I think the best way to use donor parts is buy them as you need them from a salvage yard. This way for instance, you can get the best year rear axle as well as the best year engine, which are not from the same year Mustang.
    Agreed, this would also probably be the most fun way to do it. I pushed through my build so fast I now kind of wish I had slowed down and done something like this. My next one will be exactly as described above.
    MK4 #10008 - Ordered 10/06/20, Delivered 03/03/21, First Start 7/22/21, First Go Kart 7/24/21
    Paint by Metal Morphous 5/14/22, Legally registered 6/8/22, Graduated 7/20/22
    Build Thread https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...been-delivered
    Complete Kit, Ford 306, Sniper/Dual Sync, T5, Hydraulic clutch

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  14. #8
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    From a mustang, you can only get the 32V 4.6 up to 2004. In 2005 the body style changed and they went to the 3V motors.

    There is nothing wrong with getting a donor built kit and sourcing the parts you want from all sorts of different vehicles and sources. I have a 32V from a Lincoln Mark VIII which was pretty popular a couple of years ago, now they are getting a bit harder to find.

    Between ebay, junk yards and facebook marketplace there are lots of places to find used parts that can be had really cheap, but may need more work to get working. That is all part of the planning and trying to figure out what your capabilities are.

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  16. #9
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    I built my MK4 in 2011 using a 2004 Mach 1 as the donor. The donor had only 38K miles on it, so I was able to use the engine, transmission, rear axle assembly, brakes, front spindles, wiring harness, etc. in my build. With a low mileage donor, I did a lot of cleaning and a bit of refurbishing, but nothing was a throwaway.
    The 4.6L DOHC engine is a good one, but as mentioned by many here, not easy or cheap to upgrade the power level. The next generation engine is the Coyote. No donor 2011 on Mustang with the Coyote will provide the donor compatibility with the MK4 kit.
    If you are trying to save money, my recommendation for you would be to get a late model F150 sourced Coyote and convert it to GT specs. There is some risk involved, but few other ways to get good power and modern FI at the price point. You would then want a complete kit. The Coyote and the new Mustang IRS make for a great drivetrain package for the roadster. You would still need a transmission and the new TKX would do the trick nicely.
    If you can find a low mileage 2003/2004 Mach 1, your best bet for a donor build. The auction site Copart makes it easy to find specific year and model cars coming up for auction. I have bought two donors through Copart. The process is not bad, but stay away from Autobidmaster as your broker.
    I was very fortunate to find a 2017 Mustang GT donor in 2017 at a Copart auction in CA. The car had a junk title on it making it exempt from registration for use on the highway in CA. As such I was able to get it cheap. The engine and transmission are now part of my 1970 Mustang restomod in progress. I sold off the rest of the donor after taking the parts I wanted.
    If you can find a 2015 or later Mustang GT at auction for a reasonable price, also a good route. However, when I was looking for my late model donor, anything rebuildable was going for $12K or more taking the cheap out of the equation.
    Good luck with your build plan. I would explore all the donor avenues first, before deciding on a kit. That is what I did, bought my donor first, then ordered the kit.
    MK4 base kit, 2004 Mach 1 donor, 4.6L DOHC, TR-3650 5-speed, narrowed stock axle with 3.55 gears and TruTrac, PS, PB, ABS, 17" Halibrand replica wheels, dual roll bars, Kirkey high back seats, with paint by Jeff Miller, registered 9/2014, sold 3/1/2018.
    New project, 1970 Mustang Fastback Coyote powered restomod. Started 10/14/16.
    http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/bu...mod-build.html

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  18. #10
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    Thanks all for your comments. They were all very helpful.

    Think I'll go the complete mode, and try to get the engine/trans/diff from copart. It looks like I'll need to use a broker (I'm in Illinois), so I'm concerned about that.

    Sad that it's a year wait on the kit, but I need to find a double garage first, so i have that time.

    Advice on what to look for regarding brokers would be appreciated.

  19. #11
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    I am not familiar w/ brokers. I got my IRS takeout directly from a salvage yard on ebay. Do some research on engine/trans. I haven't been interested in a Coyote engine so haven't paid strict attention but I seem to remember there are some reasons that a Coyote/trans from a 2015+ Mustang won't work in an FFR. Also be aware that the engine control ecu etc from a Mustang I don't 'think' will work in an FFR. Ford sells an engine control package specifically for use w/ crate engines in special interest cars. Also there are several generations of Coyotes and I 'think' there may be 2 generations of control packs which need to be matched to the engine.
    FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.

  20. #12
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigS View Post
    I am not familiar w/ brokers. I got my IRS takeout directly from a salvage yard on ebay. Do some research on engine/trans. I haven't been interested in a Coyote engine so haven't paid strict attention but I seem to remember there are some reasons that a Coyote/trans from a 2015+ Mustang won't work in an FFR. Also be aware that the engine control ecu etc from a Mustang I don't 'think' will work in an FFR. Ford sells an engine control package specifically for use w/ crate engines in special interest cars. Also there are several generations of Coyotes and I 'think' there may be 2 generations of control packs which need to be matched to the engine.
    Mustangs use a Getrag MT82 6-speed manual transmission. Early versions apparently had some issues, but later ones supposedly fixed. Aside from discussions about whether the ratios are really best for us, the biggest issue is the location of the shifter. It's well behind where it needs to be for our builds. There are several options to address including fabrication if that's your thing. https://www.formacars.com/store/mt82shifter is another option. See occasional builds with the MT82. But Tremec's are more typical.

    There are three generations of the Coyote. Gen 1 2011 - 2014. Gen 2 2015-2017. Gen 3 2018-current. Each has a completely different Ford Performance control pack available and they're not interchangeable. Availability on each can be a little challenging based on age (Gen 1) and the current chip shortage for the others. There are aftermarket options available, but no personal experience and probably outside my job description. Several on here have made the Mustang donor PCM work. But takes some re-programming to remove security among other things.

    I've done two Coyote builds. A Roadster with a Gen 2 and a Coupe with the Gen 3. Both with the Ford Performance control pack. I'm a huge fan of the Coyote in these cars. Drivability is amazing. They're a good value for the power and warranty if you really compare apples to apples. But not inexpensive for sure. They're a little challenging to make look good, but it's possible. Most common objection is they're not old school.
    Last edited by edwardb; 04-08-2022 at 10:38 AM.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

  21. #13
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    As I recall, on the Copart website, they have recommended brokers. When I bought my second donor in 2017, the laws had changed in CA and I needed a broker. The broker experience was very good as compared to Autobidmaster. Avoid Autobidmaster like the plague. The few hundred dollars for the cost of the broker is worth it as they provide the auction access for you. You still bid and decide what your limit is, but the account is provided by the broker, at least in my case.
    If you have a trailer, that can save you money as you can go get and transport the car yourself. Otherwise, you can submit a request on UShip, and car haulers will respond with quotes to pickup and deliver the car. Understand that the auction site needs to be paid very quickly as in 72 hours or less. So have the cash in a bank that can issue an electronic transfer quickly. If not too the purchase is not too expensive, you may even be allowed to use a credit card but there would likely be a charge for CC use. Once you win an auction, that car must be removed from the auction site lot quickly, within a couple of days, or they start incurring storage fees. So with a few time sensitive actions that need to take place, it can get a bit stressful and hectic, but worth it if you find the right car. My suggestion is to get all your ducks in a row before bidding on the car or cars s that interest you.
    MK4 base kit, 2004 Mach 1 donor, 4.6L DOHC, TR-3650 5-speed, narrowed stock axle with 3.55 gears and TruTrac, PS, PB, ABS, 17" Halibrand replica wheels, dual roll bars, Kirkey high back seats, with paint by Jeff Miller, registered 9/2014, sold 3/1/2018.
    New project, 1970 Mustang Fastback Coyote powered restomod. Started 10/14/16.
    http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/bu...mod-build.html

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    I found a salvage shop that deals entirely with late model Mustangs. I was able to purchase a 2018 Gen 3 Coyote with 30k miles that included the clutch, transmission, radiator, complete wiring harness, accelerator pedal and pedal box assy, and power brake booster and m/c assy. I also bought a complete IRS rear subframe assy from a 2019 Mustang GT that had only 9k miles on it. A lot of usable parts and lots of extra parts to resell.
    MK4 #10328 - complete kit - Gen 3 Coyote, 6 speed, IRS - ordered 9/9/2021, Built 3/5/2022, Delivered 3/23/2022, Completed build 2/1/2023

  23. #15
    Senior Member Blitzboy54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fordman114 View Post
    i found a salvage shop that deals entirely with late model mustangs. I was able to purchase a 2018 gen 3 coyote with 30k miles that included the clutch, transmission, radiator, complete wiring harness, accelerator pedal and pedal box assy, and power brake booster and m/c assy. I also bought a complete irs rear subframe assy from a 2019 mustang gt that had only 9k miles on it. A lot of usable parts and lots of extra parts to resell.
    mps?
    MK4 #10008 - Ordered 10/06/20, Delivered 03/03/21, First Start 7/22/21, First Go Kart 7/24/21
    Paint by Metal Morphous 5/14/22, Legally registered 6/8/22, Graduated 7/20/22
    Build Thread https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...been-delivered
    Complete Kit, Ford 306, Sniper/Dual Sync, T5, Hydraulic clutch

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    2011 Donor GT Gen 1

    Quote Originally Posted by edwardb View Post
    Mustangs use a Getrag MT82 6-speed manual transmission. Early versions apparently had some issues, but later ones supposedly fixed. Aside from discussions about whether the ratios are really best for us, the biggest issue is the location of the shifter. It's well behind where it needs to be for our builds. There are several options to address including fabrication if that's your thing. https://www.formacars.com/store/mt82shifter is another option. See occasional builds with the MT82. But Tremec's are more typical.

    There are three generations of the Coyote. Gen 1 2011 - 2014. Gen 2 2015-2017. Gen 3 2018-current. Each has a completely different Ford Performance control pack available and they're not interchangeable. Availability on each can be a little challenging based on age (Gen 1) and the current chip shortage for the others. There are aftermarket options available, but no personal experience and probably outside my job description. Several on here have made the Mustang donor PCM work. But takes some re-programming to remove security among other things.

    I've done two Coyote builds. A Roadster with a Gen 2 and a Coupe with the Gen 3. Both with the Ford Performance control pack. I'm a huge fan of the Coyote in these cars. Drivability is amazing. They're a good value for the power and warranty if you really compare apples to apples. But not inexpensive for sure. They're a little challenging to make look good, but it's possible. Most common objection is they're not old school.

    Hello
    I am new to the forum. I have a Mark IV complete kit coming in March with the FF IRS option. I am looking for information on using donor parts. I am being offered parts from a 2011 GT . I don’t have the list of available parts yet. I want to use a Coyote 5.0 and a manual gearbox. I will also need a rear center piece. I am not sure about what else is needed on the rear apart from brakes. Any help/ suggestions welcome.
    Thanks Joe

  25. #17
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joeo View Post
    Hello
    I am new to the forum. I have a Mark IV complete kit coming in March with the FF IRS option. I am looking for information on using donor parts. I am being offered parts from a 2011 GT . I don’t have the list of available parts yet. I want to use a Coyote 5.0 and a manual gearbox. I will also need a rear center piece. I am not sure about what else is needed on the rear apart from brakes. Any help/ suggestions welcome.
    Thanks Joe
    For the IRS, you need a center section (diff) and knuckles/hubs from a 2015+ Mustang. That vintage Mustang won’t have any of that. It will have a Gen 1 Coyote, but you likely won’t find a Gen 1 Ford Performance control pack. So unless you want to try to make donor electronics work (not for the faint of heart) you may want to consider a newer version Coyote. With a complete kit, not much additional required. Especially from that vintage.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

  26. #18
    Senior Member Joel Hauser's Avatar
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    I did a donor build. It does take some time to strip it down, clean up the parts, figure out what is usable and rebuilding what you. On the plus side you really can build your roadster from one donor, taking a lot of the guess work out of what parts to buy. Over the years, you can upgrade things like suspension, brakes and engine performance. It will probably be less expensive than a complete kit build, if you are also buying a custom engine and transmission. I would not recommend using a 1996-1997 donor. Their engines seem to be a little different than the 1998-2004, and there aren't as many after market upgrade options. Also I recommend starting with a good running donor with a clear title, registration, and current emissions inspection, not a basket case. It will cost more, but will save you a lot of aggravation in the end. Cheap is cheap, as they say. I learned the hard way.

  27. #19
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    Hi
    Thanks for the feedback. I believe it is a salvage car that is coming in. If it has the engine and gearbox would it also have the engine control performance package or is that something you would need to source separately? Thanks Joe

  28. #20
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    Thanks. I have a complete kit coming so I will look to stay up in the years if possible for the parts I need.

  29. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joeo View Post
    Thanks for the feedback. I believe it is a salvage car that is coming in. If it has the engine and gearbox would it also have the engine control performance package or is that something you would need to source separately? Thanks Joe
    It would have the engine control unit (ECU for short) for that vehicle, which means it'll want to talk to all of the OEM emissions gear and instrument cluster. Failure to satisfy every signal would mean constant CEL illumination* at best or "limp home mode" or merely "no start" at worst. The "performance pack" for the crate motors has a lot of that stripped out (by Ford) for the resto-mod/kit car/race car community.


    * - Some states get their knickers in a twist if you bring it in for annual inspection with the CEL illuminated.
    Last edited by Windsor; 02-25-2023 at 07:17 PM.
    Rob Windsor

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    Quote Originally Posted by edwardb View Post
    It will have a Gen 1 Coyote, but you likely won’t find a Gen 1 Ford Performance control pack. So unless you want to try to make donor electronics work (not for the faint of heart) you may want to consider a newer version Coyote.
    Holley offers a plug & play TerminatorX for both the Gen 1 & Gen 2 Coyote. Above that is the Dominator ECU which can also be used. Haltech also has ECU and harness options for the Coyotes and The Godzilla platform.

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