Side Pipe Alignment Issues

[Alphamacaroon]

Just got around to mounting my side-pipes with the body on, and it's not looking good... The passenger side pipe is about an inch low and the driver side is about an inch high. I know there are wedges you can buy to adjust the alignment of the pipe to the header, but I'm not sure they will work in this case because I need to move the entire pipe up or down (not tilted).

It's almost like the entire engine is mounted with a slight tilt to the passenger side. But I've checked, and both engine mount tabs are bottomed out in the slots and the oil pan appears nicely aligned to the frame from below. I've also made sure the body is aligned and everything looks symmetrical on both sides. So my only guess is that maybe the headers just have a small amount of difference in the angle of the mounting flange (because the headers are so long, it doesn't take much of a difference to result in a lot difference at the end of them).

I can only think of a couple of options:

1. Unbolt the engine mount and add a shim to one side to try to rotate the engine a bit. Not sure I like this idea, and again, the engine seems to be fairly well level side-to-side.
2. Add some sort of alignment wedge to the header to engine mounting flange to try to rotate it a bit. Does anyone make such a thing?
3. Stick a long 2x4 into the header collector and see if I can bend it into the position I want. Is this a completely crazy/idiotic thought? Could I do this while mounted to the engine (I'm leaning towards NOT)?

Am I missing other options? Is this a common issue? I know there is generally some alignment that needs to be done, but it seems like moving the entire pipe up or down is not something that is easily accomplished (unless header to engine wedges are a common thing). Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[edwardb]

I'm assuming by your description that the side pipes are 1-inch high and 1-inch low for their entire length. Not just at the tip. If it were just the tip, which is relatively common, smaller bolts or opening the mounting holes slightly will fix. But doesn't seem that's your issue. Not having the engine exactly level isn't an issue. It can be tipped a little one side or the other and not hurt anything. I had to do that on both SBF Roadster builds to get the best header alignment, and it took opening up the slots in the mounts just a bit. But not sure how that fix translates to the Coupe since the chassis and perhaps engine alignment into the mounts is maybe different. Forget trying to bend the headers. That's not going to happen.

Wedges are normally used to move the tip in or out. My Coupe has a small one on each side. Could they be rotated 90-degrees and tip the pipe up slightly on one side and down slightly on the other? Maybe. But I haven't personally tried it. Hasn't happened to me, but I've seen where guys have had either the side pipe flange or the header flange at the engine shaved by a machine shop. That might be the most elegant solution.

Curious what headers you have. The new ball socket/flange headers Factory Five is now selling are because of issues like this.

[Papa]

I know that some blocks from Dart have some casting areas that interfere with motor mounts. Have you checked to be sure the mounts are flush with the pads on the block and properly seated in the frame perches?

[cob427sc]

I built one of the first coupes and this was a major issue. Use a level to check that the engine is truly level to the frame. You can slot the engine mount holes, as I have had to do on several roadsters to get everything level, and last resort, as I did with my coupe, floor jack under the low side and 250# jump on the high side. Be careful as you go as any minor adjustment changes both how the tip remains level and also the distance from the body panel. Good luck!

[Alphamacaroon]

Thanks again everyone. Sounds like the solution is not going to be easy no matter what I do.

I want to avoid having to remove the engine at all costs, so I’m not sure the mount modification will work for me.

edwardb, my headers arrived a year ago in March, but they definitely don’t have ball sockets. So it must have been an addition after that? It seems like a great solution for both tip and full-length alignment so I just pinged FFR asking for more information. I assume the ball socket is somewhere in the collector area?

It feels like the next best solution is going to be to get a local machine shop to hone down the block mounting flange. I guess the challenge here will be to dust off the trig skills to calculate the angle needed to get the right alignment.

Thanks again.

[David Williamson]

A couple of washers between the block and engine mount on the low side engine mount will fix it. A small change at the engine make a large change at the side pipes. And you do not need to remove the engine, just loosen the mount jack it up and do one bolt at a time.
This is a common "fix" that we have done for years, my old Mkll has it.
David W

[Alphamacaroon]

A couple of washers between the block and engine mount on the low side engine mount will fix it. A small change at the engine make a large change at the side pipes. And you do not need to remove the engine, just loosen the mount jack it up and do one bolt at a time.
This is a common "fix" that we have done for years, my old Mkll has it.
David W

Okay David, that does seem doable. So add spacers between the block and mount, not the frame and mount? And I totally agree, it doesn't seem like it will need much to make a big difference.

[Jeff Kleiner]

The fact that you say both mount tabs are bottomed out in the slots makes me question whether you installed the Coyote engine mount spacers that Factory Five includes with the Coyote installation package?

Jeff

[edwardb]

edwardb, my headers arrived a year ago in March, but they definitely don’t have ball sockets. So it must have been an addition after that? It seems like a great solution for both tip and full-length alignment so I just pinged FFR asking for more information. I assume the ball socket is somewhere in the collector area?

Correct. This is a somewhat recent change made by Factory Five to all (as I understand) their headers. Was after my kit was ordered and delivered too. I don't see a listing for this newer design for the Coyote on their parts website, but pretty sure they're available. This is the idea: http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/16793-351-headers/. I don't have any personal experience with this setup, but I've seen/heard about a few recent deliveries having it. Will be interested to hear how it works out since side pipe alignment is a challenge for all builds.

There shouldn't be any issue with motor mount interference on your Coyote block. I'm assuming you have the kit supplied Energy Suspension mounts. They bolt right up. Agreed you do need the spacers from the Coyote completion kit. Although if on both sides wouldn't explain the difference you have side-to-side. But from experience, it doesn't take much of a misalignment at the mount to equal significant differences at the side pipe flange or tip.

[Jeff Kleiner]

...Agreed you do need the spacers from the Coyote completion kit. Although if on both sides wouldn't explain the difference you have side-to-side. But from experience, it doesn't take much of a misalignment at the mount to equal significant differences at the side pipe flange or tip.

Hey Paul,
Of course this would be a moot point if the spacers are already in place however if they are not my thinking on that once they are installed the engine will come up and it will bring the mount's big stud and pins more to the center range of the slots in the pedestals rather than bottomed out which will then allow the engine to be rolled a bit side to side equalizing the pipes. We need to hear from the Alphamacaroon telling us whether they are installed or not.

Jeff

[Alphamacaroon]

I installed the mounts with spacers according to the manual like this:

Screen Shot 2020-03-10 at 11.10.21 AM.png

The manual also states that both of the tabs should be bottomed out (they say low, but they show them bottomed out), which I can confirm they are.

Screen Shot 2020-03-10 at 11.29.02 AM.png

It feels like the pipes are probably at the perfect height (so I don't think that it's a mount spacer issue) just that the engine is slightly titled to the passenger side with respect to the frame.

My guess is that even a small amount of difference in the height or angle of the cradle pads on the frame could cause a fairly big difference in the alignment of the pipes. So even with the spacers and a perfectly seated engine mount I could see how it might still lead to problems— I can't imagine the frame is perfectly square. This would explain why edwardb had to elongate one of the slots to get it aligned right. If I would have known this at the time, I probably would have done the same.

I'll take a few pictures and post them in a bit so people can tell me if they see an obvious installation issues.

P.S. if anyone is interested, here is what FFR sent me regarding the new headers:

#16790 - COYOTE HDRS w/CATS/FAST = $1,100.00 plus $78.61 shipping
#16796 - BOX 12V COY HDRS w/FAST = $850.00 plus $49.38 shipping

Both are stainless steel and ball style flange.

[edwardb]

... So even with the spacers and a perfectly seated engine mount I could see how it might still lead to problems— I can't imagine the frame is perfectly square. This would explain why edwardb had to elongate one of the slots to get it aligned right. If I would have known this at the time, I probably would have done the same...

Check my post. That comment regarding cutting the slots was for Roadster builds. Sorry for any confusion. I only mentioned it because it's not unheard of with these builds. I didn't have to cut anything on my Coupe. Although, in all fairness, they were prototype headers from Gas-N that Georgie made using my car as a template. So no surprise they fit OK. I actually would guess the frame is quite square. There are a few hand placed parts when the frame is welded up. But for the most part, they are heavily fixtured. Pretty interesting to see if you do the plant tour.

[Alphamacaroon]

Yeah, I understood that you meant the Roadster, but I guess I just assumed the engine mounts and header geometry were relatively similar.

[Alphamacaroon]

Spent a lot of time wracking my brain on the solution and I thing I am going to go with some shims. But instead of shimming where the engine meets the mount, I'm going to shim where the mounts meets the frame. I think I'm going to fabricate a couple of these:

https://uprproducts.com/79-04-mustan...t-shim-plates/

Should be easy enough to loosen up the single bolt and slide this in. I'll let everyone know how it goes.

[edwardb]

Spent a lot of time wracking my brain on the solution and I thing I am going to go with some shims. But instead of shimming where the engine meets the mount, I'm going to shim where the mounts meets the frame. I think I'm going to fabricate a couple of these:

https://uprproducts.com/79-04-mustan...t-shim-plates/

Should be easy enough to loosen up the single bolt and slide this in. I'll let everyone know how it goes.

Those are exactly like the shims we used to use for Coyote installations before Factory Five came up with the piece sandwiched into the motor mount itself. I suspect you'll need way less thickness than that. Put that on one side at the motor mount and it will move your header to side pipe connection a lot.

[Alphamacaroon]

Yeah, my guess is that I will probably need half that thickness or less. Those definitely seemed overkill to me.

[Dick Z]

Just got around to mounting my side-pipes with the body on, and it's not looking good... The passenger side pipe is about an inch low and the driver side is about an inch high. I know there are wedges you can buy to adjust the alignment of the pipe to the header, but I'm not sure they will work in this case because I need to move the entire pipe up or down (not tilted).

It's almost like the entire engine is mounted with a slight tilt to the passenger side. But I've checked, and both engine mount tabs are bottomed out in the slots and the oil pan appears nicely aligned to the frame from below. I've also made sure the body is aligned and everything looks symmetrical on both sides. So my only guess is that maybe the headers just have a small amount of difference in the angle of the mounting flange (because the headers are so long, it doesn't take much of a difference to result in a lot difference at the end of them).

I can only think of a couple of options:

1. Unbolt the engine mount and add a shim to one side to try to rotate the engine a bit. Not sure I like this idea, and again, the engine seems to be fairly well level side-to-side.
2. Add some sort of alignment wedge to the header to engine mounting flange to try to rotate it a bit. Does anyone make such a thing?
3. Stick a long 2x4 into the header collector and see if I can bend it into the position I want. Is this a completely crazy/idiotic thought? Could I do this while mounted to the engine (I'm leaning towards NOT)?

Am I missing other options? Is this a common issue? I know there is generally some alignment that needs to be done, but it seems like moving the entire pipe up or down is not something that is easily accomplished (unless header to engine wedges are a common thing). Any help would be greatly appreciated!

My header was much too low on the passenger side. After much diddling with the engine mounts and chopping out the pontoon, I finally took the car to a shop where they cut and re-welded the headers to the proper angle. Then had the header recoated with ceramic.