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Thread: And then the bottom fell out

  1. #1
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    And then the bottom fell out

    So I was really excited last week as I got my temp plate and went for a test drive.
    Up and down my road first to make sure things were ok. Then on to the open road. Car was making a rattling noise under acceleration so went back home.
    Talked to Mark and redid the valve lash.
    Two of the valves opened up much farther then the other 14. After new push rods and running a drill on the oil pump to make sure the lifters where pumped up we could not figure out what it was so the top end came off.
    Took out the two different acting lifters and they looked great.
    Then pulled out another lifter and that showed some major issues. The bottom end that runs on the cam was concave.
    Can you find the two good ones in the pic?
    So that meant the cam was shot too, sigh....
    All the front accessories removed and the cam is out. Now for the new parts.

    It was strange too because I drained the oil and opened up the filter before doing all this and did not see any metal parts.

    When I got the engine firing many moons ago I had no clue that I had a flat tapped cam. It was all part of an Edelbrock top end kit This needs a zinc additive to make sure it lasts, and that is how it happened. Guess I’m a little disappointed in my engine builder. Would’ve thought that would’ve been a recommendation he would’ve made.
    I guess there is a reason he is now out of business.

    At least I now know why my engine just was not performing right.
    Makes me wonder if my Fast EZ was fine in the end, and it was just the engine acting up....

    Why did I think I was going to be able to enjoy my car?

    John

    F05FDEF6-C0B8-489E-9196-5DD9E896461D.jpg
    29758A1D-D58D-49E5-B1FD-E7DFA4B20DC5.jpg
    DEE1E804-398E-4A5E-8BB5-D46AC4BCA3C9.jpg
    1D88AF6B-A925-4FEE-8926-5996468A6CE0.jpg
    Making progress on the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

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  3. #2
    PLATNUM Supporting Member
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    That really S**Ks. I have had similar deals and you recover but your wallet does not. Sorry to hear.

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  5. #3
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    Wow....never seen a cam or lifters wear like that....

    I know it's tough but thank you for sharing these details.

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  7. #4
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Man, that $ucks Jon. Break in on flat tappets is very critical or they'll do just exactly what yours did. As soon as they fire up the RPM needs to go to about 2,500 for the first 20-30 minutes. Often times with a flat tappet cam running high valve spring pressures the break in will be done with "soft" springs which are then changed out. Just curious if it had been run before you installed it and if not did you go through a break in procedure? Sorry to hear about your luck and I hope you're back in business soon.

    Jeff

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  9. #5
    Gordon Levy's Avatar
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    We have a specific process we use for our vintage race engines that use flat tappets. Takes about 2 days to break one in right.
    Go Fast Part and tech Specialist [email protected]
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  11. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Dol View Post

    This needs a zinc additive to make sure it lasts, and that is how it happened.
    There has also been a lot of internet discussion over the years since the epa reduced the zinc content (in motor oils) regarding outsourced lifters (china / taiwan) being part of that problem.

    Just additional info.

  12. #7

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    John,

    I know how you feel, but we all know that you will bounce back.

    Don't let this get you down because you will get past this hurtle.
    Start figuring out what upgrades you want to do and go for it.
    Your car will be better than ever and your skills will be too.

    Remember That It Came To Pass, It Didn't Come To Stay!

    Steve

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    Last edited by GoDadGo; 11-08-2019 at 08:32 PM.

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  14. #8
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    Sad. I feel your pain. My pontiac engine was put together by an engine shop I thought was good with more money than I care to admit. Upon pickup I was unable to install due to shoulder surgery. I asked a local performance shop if they could install it. They recommend a dyno run and oil drain prior to install. I got a call after months of waiting for the engine to be run with bad news. They said that after 6 minutes on the dyno oil temp was around 325 degrees. They pulled the plug on the run and called me. I contacted the builder and he argued that he did not think the heat gun they were using on the oil pan was accurate. After much back and forth the builder opened the pan and said it looked good and was fine to run. I took the engine back to the performance shop and they opened the top end and discovered spun cam bearings. The builder blamed the dyno, the performance shop blamed the builder and I was left to pay for a second rebuild with new cam and lifters.

    It eventually got fixed and runs great now. The frustration,anger, and helplessness in this situation were the worst. It took me 2 years to deal with.
    Best of luck in resolving it.

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  16. #9
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    Thanks for the support gents. It does suck but it’s better then a stick in the eye.
    Just frustrated since I was this close to finally getting some seat time and then this...
    Won’t be long and there will be snow on the ground. Was hoping to look for some gremlins that I could address during the winter if needed. This way I would be ready for spring.
    I guess the silver lining is that with a lighter wallet the power to weight ratio increases!
    Making progress on the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  17. #10
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    that really $ucks. Are you changing to a roller cam? if not run diesel oil, it has more anti-wear additive. Best luck on the rebuild.
    David
    Mkll 4874 built in 2004
    Gen 3 coupe #16 registered 2018 painted 2019

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  19. #11
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  21. #12

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    John,

    When I had to replace my leaky block I upgraded to a Roller Cam just to avoid having to chase specialty oils.

    I actually took some duration away to improve drive ability so now I can get the car into 6th gear 70 MPH which equates to about 1,750 RPM, but I digress. Moving to a roller cam we found that the HP and torque were basically unchanged; however, the operation range widened by about 250 RPM which was all on the bottom because of the shorter duration. With that said I really think if you keep the same set up, but move to a roller cam of similar lift and duration, you will keep your bottom end operation range in tact while making your motor a good bit more Zippie! You can expect a slight horsepower increase because you won't be wasting ponies in the valve train.

    You know we all like to spend our family member's money, but like you I agree that if you want more power then then is the time to add it.

    Steve
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 11-09-2019 at 10:50 AM.

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  23. #13
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Williamson View Post
    that really $ucks. Are you changing to a roller cam? if not run diesel oil, it has more anti-wear additive. Best luck on the rebuild.
    David
    Yes that’s What I’m looking to do.
    Making progress on the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  24. #14
    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
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    Now you can run that lopey cam you always wanted. You might consider using BR-30 break in oil (Summit Racing) to start with as it has high zinc levels, even if running a roller cam. Once your engine is broken in and rings are seated, switch to a dino or synthetic oil of your choice.

    If you still want to run high zinc oil use Mobil 1 Racing oil, it has a very high zinc content and will say "track only" but if you're not running cats I wouldn't worry about the zinc. It may eventually contaminate the O2 sensor but those are relatively cheap and easy to change. I run high zinc oil and leaded 113 octane fuel with O2 sensors and don't sweat it. But I don't expect 30,000 miles on a sensor either.
    33 Hot Rod Super Pro Drag Racer
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  26. #15

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    Hang in there John, if it were easy everyone would do it.

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  28. #16
    Junior Member jwhit's Avatar
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    if you decide to go back with flat tappet cam check out cam research they have break in machine
    check out this link
    http://www.camresearchcorp.com/camking/

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  30. #17
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwhit View Post
    if you decide to go back with flat tappet cam check out cam research they have break in machine
    check out this link
    http://www.camresearchcorp.com/camking/
    Wow if only I had known. That could be my cheapest way of getting back up and running though.
    Thanks for the heads up
    Making progress on the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  31. #18
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    I decided to contact the cam research shop and they are making me a new cam for the same money as a new Edelbrock cam including the break in of the cam and lifters.
    New cam will create more HP too. Silver lining....

    John
    Making progress on the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

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  33. #19

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Good Luck & Wrench On Brother John, Wrench On!

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  35. #20
    Junior Member jwhit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Dol View Post
    I decided to contact the cam research shop and they are making me a new cam for the same money as a new Edelbrock cam including the break in of the cam and lifters.
    New cam will create more HP too. Silver lining....

    John
    you will be very happy

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  37. #21
    Mark Dougherty's Avatar
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    John
    This sure is a bummer.
    You and I have been working hard to figure out what is wrong over the phone.
    Sure glad I was not the one who built your engine.
    The traveling Builder
    717-773-5624

  38. #22
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Dougherty View Post
    John
    This sure is a bummer.
    You and I have been working hard to figure out what is wrong over the phone.
    Sure glad I was not the one who built your engine.
    Sure this wouldn’t have happened if you did!
    Making progress on the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

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