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Thread: Body work...on or off?

  1. #1
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    Question Body work...on or off?

    Hi there all,
    Well it has been 2 months since first start. I have been sorting out a few things like power steering, alignment (Longacre), electrical and driveshaft angle. I completed all the mechanical work a month ago (then a roller, but no place to go-cart) and have been contemplating installing the body. The mechanical stuff is easy for me, but it looks like bodywork takes an artist.
    With all I have read it is confusing and intimidating. Put the body on, take the body off, put the body on, take the body off, ad infinitum. Also the FFR body installation video says that many edges must be trimmed such as the lip around the dash, the lip behind the seats, radius the wheel wells, and so on. And then other posts suggest the body is almost ok as is.
    I would rather just put the body on once. Is that possible or recommended? I have read that some guys leave it in gel coat for awhile. I am anxious to have it licensed so I can drive it. What is really necessary to do now? How much success would I have if I were to drop the body on now? Should I under coat first? Or, perhaps, have I missed some things that should be done now with the body off?
    Many folks send their car off to one of the Jeff’s to have it painted which takes 5-6 months (??) and costs a bunch. I am retired and don’t have a bunch of money. So I will have to do the bodywork myself. What is the best approach; body on…body off?
    I need some advice or please point me at some useful posts. I haven’t been very successful searching all the posts. So the chassis just sits there while I worry myself silly.
    Thank you for any help you can give me,
    Jeff
    Mk4 Complete kit with IRS, IRS brakes, Power Steering, 302 mounts, 302 headers, TKO, 2 Rollbars, Leather seats,
    vintage gauges, polished stainless sidepipes, front and rear sway bars, all cutouts.
    Blueprint Engines 347 stroker; Tremec TKO 600; 3.55 IRS, 17" Bullitt wheels: 9" front 10.5" rear.
    Delivered Nov. 6, 2018. First start Aug. 11, 2019. First Go-Cart Feb. 21, 2020.

  2. #2
    Papa's Avatar
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    Jeff,

    I agree that body and paint is an art. I grew up in my dad's body shop and learned what it takes to get it right. That's why my car went to Jeff Kleiner.

    The real question is not IF you can, but rather if you WANT to take the task on yourself. Many others here that have never done body and paint have done their own and produced beautiful results. It takes time ... a lot of time. It's messy, tedious, unforgiving work. Materials are expensive.

    In my opinion, Jeff's services are a bargain. Have you contacted the guys that do this for a living to see what they charge? I have access to a fantastic painter in my area that does a lot of show quality, award winning work. I had every intention of having him paint my car, and was even okay with the price he quoted me. That was until I had a discussion with "the Jeffs" and started to understand all the little idiosyncrasies that come with making these cars look and function right. My total cost including round trip shipping was several thousand dollars less than my local guy's quote. My doors are a work of art and fit, open, and close perfectly. I sent Jeff my 95% complete car and he sent me back a beautiful 99% complete car. He installed my bumpers, all the weather strip and seals, grommets, etc., aligned my side pipes, got my front end alignment close, and much more.

    Okay, back to your other questions about the body. I had the body on and off three times before sending the car to Jeff. He had it on and off a couple more before he was done. I know you can bodywork and paint these cars body on, but why? The body is so easy to put on and remove. Once the car has been put together completely the first time, it comes apart and goes back together much easier afterwards. Doing the fitting requires having the body on the car. Most of the rest of the prep and paint can be done body off. Your chassis will come out a lot cleaner in the end and the time saved masking everything off will easily shadow the time spent taking the body off.

    Just my perspective,
    Dave
    Last edited by Papa; 11-19-2019 at 09:15 AM.
    My Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...ter-Build-9754
    (Most viewed Roadster build thread on this forum!)

    Delivered: 6/17/2017
    First Start: 12/30/2017
    Completed: 12/7/2019
    Legal: 1/30/2020

    Member of the Mile-Hi Cobra Club
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  3. #3
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    Cool Thank you

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa View Post
    Jeff,

    I agree that body and paint is an art. I grew up in my dad's body shop and learned what it takes to get it right. That's why my car went to Jeff Kleiner.

    The real question is not IF you can, but rather if you WANT to take the task on yourself. Many others here that have never done body and paint have done their own and produced beautiful results. It takes time ... a lot of time. It's messy, tedious, unforgiving work. Materials are expensive.

    In my opinion, Jeff's services are a bargain. Have you contacted the guys that do this for a living to see what they charge? I have access to a fantastic painter in my area that does a lot of show quality, award winning work. I had every intention of having him paint my car, and was even okay with the price he quoted me. That was until I had a discussion with "the Jeffs" and started to understand all the little idiosyncrasies that come with making these cars look and function right. My total cost including round trip shipping was several thousand dollars less than my local guy's quote. My doors are a work of art an fit, open, and close perfectly. I sent Jeff my 95% complete car and he sent me back a beautiful 99% complete car. He installed my bumpers, all the weather strip and seals, grommets, etc., aligned my side pipes, got my front end alignment close, and much more.

    Okay, back to your other questions about the body. I had the body on and off three times before sending the car to Jeff. He had it on and off a couple more before he was done. I know you can bodywork and paint these cars body on, but why? The body is so easy to put on and remove. Once the car has been put together completely the first time, it comes apart and goes back together much easier afterwards. Doing the fitting requires having the body on the car. Most of the rest of the prep and paint can be done body off. Your chassis will come out a lot cleaner in the end and the time saved making everything off will easily shadow the time spent taking the body off.

    Just my perspective,
    Dave
    Thank you Dave,
    You are right, I'm better off letting the pros do it. Why ruin it now?
    I didn't realize the "Jeffs" did so much work and that it really is worth it. I will save up some money and contact them.
    Thank you again,
    Jeff
    Mk4 Complete kit with IRS, IRS brakes, Power Steering, 302 mounts, 302 headers, TKO, 2 Rollbars, Leather seats,
    vintage gauges, polished stainless sidepipes, front and rear sway bars, all cutouts.
    Blueprint Engines 347 stroker; Tremec TKO 600; 3.55 IRS, 17" Bullitt wheels: 9" front 10.5" rear.
    Delivered Nov. 6, 2018. First start Aug. 11, 2019. First Go-Cart Feb. 21, 2020.

  4. #4

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    I set up the body , trim and fit the doors . After that I do all the bodywork and paint before it ever sees the chassis again. The hood and decklid can be trimmed on or off the chassis...da bat.....btw, I take 8-12 weeks not 6mos not that I'm a viable choice for you being about 3000 MILES AWAY !

  5. #5
    David aka Ducky2009 Ducky2009's Avatar
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    Jeff,
    I drove mine in gel coat for about 500 miles. Gave me a chance to see if I needed/'wanted any changes. If you can't go-cart, this might be a good option. After that, I did make a few changes. I painted mine myself with the body off. Had the body on-off 3-4 times. It's not that hard.

    You do need to trim the cockpit lips. I discovered that the lips are not straight, so I held a sharpie marker flat against the dash to create a straight line, then trimmed to achieve an 1/8" gap or so (didn't trim to the line, just used it to create a straight cut). The trick is to locate the body, front to back first, to determine how much to trim. Jeff Kleiner has a great post about body location.... somewhere. You will probably have to trim the aluminum in the trunk where it meets the body at the rear.

    FFR recently released a video about trimming the wheel well lips. I didn't do that.

    Good luck,
    David
    MK4 Build #9035 Delivered 2/17/17, First Start & Go-Kart 6/2/17, Licensed 9/1/17
    Paint - Lightning Blue Metallic, No Hood Scoop, No Stripes
    Gen 2 Coyote Engine & TKO-600. Solid Axle, 8.8-3.55, Power Steering, Power Brakes, Dual Roll Bars
    Heater and Glove Box, Drop Trunk, Wipers, Radio, FFR Vintage Gauges, Custom Dash
    Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...MK4-Build-9035

  6. #6
    On a roll Al_C's Avatar
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    Jeff,

    My thoughts:
    1. Undercoat while the body is off. Flip it over in your yard and paint it with truck bed liner.
    2. Assemble the car completely (without doing any body work) and get it registered. Then you can drive it and enjoy it for a while. Many people won't even notice that you didn't do the body. They just see a very cool red car.
    3. Make the determination to do it yourself or outsource it. Either way, the body is going to come off for paint whether you paint it or someone else does.

    Just my 2 cents. I agree that body/paint is an art, and I'm not that much of an artist. Maybe at one point long ago, but certainly not now. Jeff Kleiner is doing my car and I'm very happy about that. All things considered, I don't believe you will save that much doing it yourself, but again, that is just my opinion.
    Mk IV Roadster - #8650 - delivered 7-17-2015 - first start 7-28-2018 - first go-kart 10-13-2018 - licensed and on the road 9-9-19: body/paint completed 3-17-2020.
    Complete kit / 2015 Coyote / TKO600 / IRS / Wilwood brakes / Mid-Shift mod / Power Steering / Heater and Seat Heaters / RT turn signal / Breeze radiator shroud and mount

  7. #7
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    I go about it a little different than my friend Miller but that's not to say one is more right than the other although his way is probably more streamlined. I do an initial fit/position/trim of doors, hood and trunk then pull the body and 90% finish the parting lines, trim lips, wheelwells, etc. After that it goes back on for final fit and gapping of the moving panels as well as the associated bodywork necessary to match them to the body. Afterwards it comes off again for all of the spraying.

    My time frame is similar to da bat's once I have the car in my possession but since I work alone and do it all myself my waiting list is kinda' long and most of my customers the last couple of years are running up some gelcoat miles while they wait their turn.

    Jeff

  8. #8
    Senior Member Avalanche325's Avatar
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    I did my own body and paint. The first and only car I have done. You can get a show quality paint job yourself, IF you are willing to spend a lot of time on it and you are the kind of person that good enough isn't good enough. You will be far far slower than a pro.

    You really really need to decide if it is something that you WANT to do. It is hugely rewarding, but again a lot of labor and going over and over the same thing again. It felt a little more like I was sculpting something rather than just sanding sanding sanding. Out of other guys around Jacksonville, three had them painted locally (St. Augustine area) and one sent not too far away to a "big name" place. None were completely happy with the work, they shelled out some serious $$$, and their cars took much much longer than promised. If you are not going to do it yourself, I would get my car to one of the Jeffs.

    Yes you can save some money. But not as much as you might think if you do it right. The supplies are not cheap. You need to use quality products, even sandpaper. You will be buying everything, where as the pros have a lot of things in stock over multiple jobs. And as a first timer, you need to overdo everything. Sanding blocks, spreaders, masking tape and paper, cleaners, paint gun, maybe a compressor. None of these should be the cheap stuff. When you set up a paint booth, extra shop lights (I added 12 fixtures and wished I had more), PVC pipe and fittings, fans, plastic, duct tape, respirator, etc. Just my paint and clear setup was $900.00. Not counting all of the stuff underneath. I always joke that I could have gotten a job at McDonalds and paid for Jeff to do my car in the same amount of labor hours that I put in.

    Putting the body on and off itself is no big deal. Its the over a week of putting everything else on the car that takes time. You would think it would be an afternoon, but its not. That being said, getting registered (EASY around here if you follow the correct procedure - other forum), and driving in gelcoat gives you a chance to enjoy your hard work and take care of shakedown items.

    There are some VERY good and detailed threads on the other forum, with a lot of specific information from our Jeffs if you decide to do it yourself.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner View Post
    I go about it a little different than my friend Miller but that's not to say one is more right than the other although his way is probably more streamlined. I do an initial fit/position/trim of doors, hood and trunk then pull the body and 90% finish the parting lines, trim lips, wheelwells, etc. After that it goes back on for final fit and gapping of the moving panels as well as the associated bodywork necessary to match them to the body. Afterwards it comes off again for all of the spraying.

    My time frame is similar to da bat's once I have the car in my possession but since I work alone and do it all myself my waiting list is kinda' long and most of my customers the last couple of years are running up some gelcoat miles while they wait their turn.

    Jeff
    I'm one of those on Jeff's list and am glad I am driving it. Not only do you gain an extra 10 HP by driving in gelcoat, but you get the chance to work out the bugs / identify changes etc. I have a couple of things for Jeff to do for me, but more importantly I can't imagine doing the cam swap on my coyote with a painted car. I know mechanics do it all the time, but I ain't one! Jeff will have to spend a few extra minutes cleaning god only knows what various fluids from the fenders! (oil, brake cleaner, brake fluid!, assembly lube, lithium grease, beer, etc). Can you imagine what any of those would have been like on fresh paint (especially the brake fluid AKA paint stripper). Not to mention my fat $&# leaning on it with belt buckle etc adding character.

    I have driven 2 summers in gel coat and glad I did it!

    just another 2 cents to add to the jar!

    Greg

  10. #10
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    Hi Jeff,
    I used to live in California (center of cardom). Now in Florida. I will seriously consider shipping to you after some gel-coat miles as suggested.
    Thanks for your reply.
    Jeff
    Mk4 Complete kit with IRS, IRS brakes, Power Steering, 302 mounts, 302 headers, TKO, 2 Rollbars, Leather seats,
    vintage gauges, polished stainless sidepipes, front and rear sway bars, all cutouts.
    Blueprint Engines 347 stroker; Tremec TKO 600; 3.55 IRS, 17" Bullitt wheels: 9" front 10.5" rear.
    Delivered Nov. 6, 2018. First start Aug. 11, 2019. First Go-Cart Feb. 21, 2020.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ducky2009 View Post
    Jeff,
    I drove mine in gel coat for about 500 miles. Gave me a chance to see if I needed/'wanted any changes. If you can't go-cart, this might be a good option. After that, I did make a few changes. I painted mine myself with the body off. Had the body on-off 3-4 times. It's not that hard.

    You do need to trim the cockpit lips. I discovered that the lips are not straight, so I held a sharpie marker flat against the dash to create a straight line, then trimmed to achieve an 1/8" gap or so (didn't trim to the line, just used it to create a straight cut). The trick is to locate the body, front to back first, to determine how much to trim. Jeff Kleiner has a great post about body location.... somewhere. You will probably have to trim the aluminum in the trunk where it meets the body at the rear.

    FFR recently released a video about trimming the wheel well lips. I didn't do that.

    Good luck,
    David
    Driving in gel-coat sounds like the best idea to sort things out while I am waiting for one of the Jeffs.
    Thanks for your reply.
    Jeff
    Mk4 Complete kit with IRS, IRS brakes, Power Steering, 302 mounts, 302 headers, TKO, 2 Rollbars, Leather seats,
    vintage gauges, polished stainless sidepipes, front and rear sway bars, all cutouts.
    Blueprint Engines 347 stroker; Tremec TKO 600; 3.55 IRS, 17" Bullitt wheels: 9" front 10.5" rear.
    Delivered Nov. 6, 2018. First start Aug. 11, 2019. First Go-Cart Feb. 21, 2020.

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