Narrow automatic transmission for wheelchair Cobra
Looking for the "narrowest" automatic transmission for a wheelchair cobra, it's tight, may have to "squeeze" (narrow up) the tunnel, modify the wheelchair.
Driver will be sitting in his wheelchair as he drives.
Any suggestions?
Intend on putting 289 in this lady.
This is a Paul Bennett Cobra, I chose to use it as Paul built his race Cobras with 4-2" "tubes", rather than 2-4" "tubes, hence the floor sits 2" lower than FF5 or others, therefore the ramp will be shallower. Plus, I had a Bennett body/chassis laying around.
Wow that might be a tough one. Most autos are pretty wide. How do you expect to get a wheel chair into the cobra? Even a real low one will likely have your head above the windshield. I just put a Ford AOD in a cobra and it fit with no modifications but no room to narrow the tunnel.
Mike
Mike, for starters on this one/off/prototype, I bought an 12v scissors jack, (just to see if it can work, I'm sure there is something out there more sophisticated); which can raise/lower chair. The used chair I bought has 14" removable wheels, which will fit into a "pocket", cut out of trunk cowl, behind passenger seat....I hope. Already modified Paul's chassis, removed a diagonal cross member in floor, and welded in 1/4" plate, so the jack can now sit 2" lower. After cutting 32" wide opening in side of body, I will have to do some more chassis mods, in front of left rear wheel.
Fun fact:
Paul Bennett's Cobra is 3"+/- in height at the top/center of cowl, where mirror is the FF5s and Hi-Tec that I've measured....my guess, he did it for aerodynamic. Paul preferred to work on race Cobras, rather than street Cobras.
IT LOOKS MEAN, sitting next to FF5.
The FF5 is 3-1/2" off ground, the Bennett is 7"+/- off ground, at this time.
Can you scoot the engine forward so that the bell-housing of the transmission further forward than normal?
That way you'd just have the skinny part of the transmission in the tunnel if the bell-housing moved into the engine bay.
You might be able to install a Shorty Powerglide and really pick up some tunnel room, but you'd need to put it behind a high torque engine like GM's 383 truck motor since it makes all of it's power in the lower RPM spectrum.
Please be advised that I had to shift things forward so that my distributor cleared the body and so my transmission would fit since the ZF 6-Speed's shifter assembly hangs off the left side of the transmission. If you take at the attached video you can see that there is a lot of room in the tunnel (Except For That Pesky Shifter Assembly) so maybe scooting the engine forward would help.
As someone who teaches neurorehabilitation to DPT students, I am super excited to see this. Please consider posting occasional progress updates here, as I'd love to see how this turns out and even include some finished pictures (with your permission) in my lectures on adapted driving and recreation.
--Nathan
MKIV Complete Kit: 3-link, vintage gauges, glove-box dash, chrome roll bars, 17" wheels, B/T leather seats, Gas-N side pipes and headers; Drive train: Levy 408w w/carb, TKO600, Moser 8.8 with 3.55s and GT rear brakes; Paint: Jeff Miller Ford Magnetic Grey Metallic with BMW Titan Silver stripes Ordered: 4/5/16, Order completion: 5/14/16, Delivered: 5/24/16, First start: 6/22/19, Registered and legal: 10/28/19
Engine forward sounds interesting for space. Not the best for traction on these, so keep that in mind.
Does the PB have the engine offset to the passenger side? That might get you a little bit.
Just a wild out of the box, and I am sure expensive, thought. Would a transaxle fit in the rear? There are some that aren't huge if you're not putting crazy HP through them.
Very interesting project. Steve has a good idea about moving the engine forward and installing a Powerglide trans and they do make a short tail shaft version for dragsters that will allow you to run a longer driveshaft and narrow the tunnel farther forward. If you could live with a V-6 that would allow even more forward engine placement.
And also thinking out of the box, a trans-axle set up like the 1961-63 Pontiac Tempest used a Powerglide (or similar to a Powerglide) attached to the axle driven by a drive shaft from the front mounted engine. Similar to the Corvair but in the case of the Corvair the engine was direct coupled to the trans-axle. And the Corvair engine ran reverse rotation so you might be able to use one of them with the input shaft facing forward. Yes, it would take a lot of engineering, fabrication, and experimenting but these ideas may invoke other more favorable ideas. The link below will show you Pontiac's trans-axle.
Dart Little M 406" SBC 800 HP N/A & 1,100 HP on nitrous, 2-spd Powerglide with trans brake, 6,000 RPM stall converter, narrowed Moser 88 3.90:1 spool with 35-spline gun-drilled axles & Torino bearings, custom parallel four-link, custom tube chassis & roll cage NHRA certified for 8.5-sec (only two FFR Hot Rods have this cert).
Also, your V-6 idea isn't too shabby either since the 4.3 Chevy is a stout little motor.
The Cyclones ran a turbo version so you could really save some space going down that path.
IMO, the Pontiac Tempest trans-axle was a crude solution to a non-existent problem for a basic economy transportation car. If you look at this first GM design and compare it to the later Corvette trans-axle you can see a well thought out implementation of a front engine / rear trans-axle design that took advantage of weight placement and IRS to make a great handling supercar. No surprise that the Tempest design only lasted one design cycle but we can still learn from the design as it has packaging and weight placement advantages. And if nothing else, expands our knowledge of what's possible.
The Corvair trans-axle was a half-good design. The actual trans-axle was very robust and a lightweight (in the manual trans configuration) but the suspension design was as archaic and a poor performer as was the original VW design it was fashioned after. But use this trans-axle with a modern double a-arm suspension system and you have a simple, robust and compact design that could be made to perform very well. That might be worth all the design effort to make this work in a small car like the roadster if the packaging advantages were a priority.
Dart Little M 406" SBC 800 HP N/A & 1,100 HP on nitrous, 2-spd Powerglide with trans brake, 6,000 RPM stall converter, narrowed Moser 88 3.90:1 spool with 35-spline gun-drilled axles & Torino bearings, custom parallel four-link, custom tube chassis & roll cage NHRA certified for 8.5-sec (only two FFR Hot Rods have this cert).
This is awesome! Great ideas to give someone access to a life altering hobby! When you start work on it please keep us informed. I would definitely be interested in how it progresses. I am sure there will be others who have mobility challenges they face that would follow your lead.
Dart Little M 406" SBC 800 HP N/A & 1,100 HP on nitrous, 2-spd Powerglide with trans brake, 6,000 RPM stall converter, narrowed Moser 88 3.90:1 spool with 35-spline gun-drilled axles & Torino bearings, custom parallel four-link, custom tube chassis & roll cage NHRA certified for 8.5-sec (only two FFR Hot Rods have this cert).
Another idea is to seek the help of a local engineering school. As an engineering student I had a professor who made it a point for his design students to create devices that assisted the handicapped. Perhaps a local university has, or will consider a similar program? My engineer brain is thinking to have an automated slide out drivers seat that the driver transfers into from a modern compact wheel chair and the device transfers the driver into position. The chair is then stored in the trunk. Have the trunk open from the front and a transformer like grabber arm thingy can yank the chair up and store it. It'd be an exciting and inspiring challenge for a group of young creative students. Toss in a couple morale inspiring track laps on a completed car and see if a local theater will provide a design team with tickets to Ford Vs. Ferrari. And then you have some highly creative and intelligent disciples that'll make things happen.
FFR MKIV ordered 12 July 2019. IRS, Wilwood Brakes, 18" Wheels w/MT tires, power steering, EFI, Heat. 347 Dart w/TKO-600 by Mike Forte, Holley FI, MSD coil and CD box. All new, no donor build.
"I hope you can make this work because getting a Mobility Challenged Person in a Cobra is Cooler Than Cool!"
If I have to cut the entire car down the middle and add a couple of inches to make it wider, I will make it work. Saw one someone did it to in Alameda, he wanted wider track for track.
NAZ
"Electric. Another good option to contemplate.
Yesterday, 07:08 PM
UnhipPopano
Has anyone converted one of these to an electric?"
Yup, actually I sold my semi completed 427 engine FF5 to a guy in san jose, he took engine out, and converted the car to electric, kicks *** racing at laguna seca all the time. He switched out the Halibran 15" wheels I had on the car, so I went to san jose to pick up/buy, and saw my old car completed as he converted it.
Avalanche325
Does the PB have the engine offset to the passenger side? That might get you a little bit.
Not sure, I just ended up with Paul's "stuff", that he sold to a guy, who did noting with it, for a few years, then I bought the "stuff", one ea. 427body/chassis, one 289 body/chassis, molds for both, jig for chassis, and about 40+ boxes of other "stuff". I'm still sorting through boxes, mirrors, wind wings, chassis parts, roll bars, and on and on. Took 3 of us driving to Sacramento, to pick up, two p-ups with car trailers, and one van with 40" enclosed trailer, fun trip, after we loaded it all up, when to hotel, it was 100 degrees that day, as we were checking in I noticed fridge with beer behind counter, I said: STOP paperwork, hand us 3 beers, than we can finish checking in. We jumped in pool, to cool off, then walked across parking lot to Chiles, to eat and have a "few" beers. I hardly knew these two guys, now we are best of friends!
Engine forward sounds interesting for space. Not the best for traction on these, so keep that in mind.
Does the PB have the engine offset to the passenger side? That might get you a little bit.
Just a wild out of the box, and I am sure expensive, thought. "Would a transaxle fit in the rear?"
You are talking way over my head.
RBachman
Another idea is to seek the help of a local engineering school.....
Not a bad idea, I'm 12 units short of engineering degree, just never needed to finish, got job working outdoors in construction, never looked back.
The more minds that look at this thing, the better chance that it will be on the road.
Geoff H
This is awesome! Great ideas to give someone access to a life altering hobby! When you start work on it please keep us informed. I would definitely be interested in how it progresses. I am sure there will be others who have mobility challenges they face that would follow your lead.
I've already started, cut 32" out of side of car, modified chassis, bought used W/C, it almost fits, talking with custom W/C folding ramp company, and took the car to Mikes last week.
I was at mechanics yesterday, I have 1998 Ford F-15, only 80K miles, heater core went out 4 years ago, $50 part/$1200 labor, then replaced one went out last month, same price, different mechanic, she started leaking again, anyone have an F150 with similar problems. I digress.
Opie, owner of Mikes Automotive, here in Atascadero, really likes the idea of moving the engine forward, I'm passing all your suggestions onto him, as he's actually "building" the car, while I play with W/C part.
Unbelievable, I move to this one horse town of 27k people 5+ years ago, head to Napa Auto Parts, and right next door is Mikes Auto Shop, with a 427 Cobra on his sign, what are the odds, been going to him ever since.
Just a wild out of the box, and I am sure expensive, thought. "Would a transaxle fit in the rear?"
You are talking way over my head.
If this is what you are saying...
A transaxle is a combination transmission and differential. Basically, instead of the transmission being connected to the back of the engine for a front engine car, it gets moved to the rear of the car and combined with the differential. There are different designs, but on many of them, a lot of the unit is behind the rear axle. They tend to be expensive. Not to mention a major redesign of the rear of the car.
Avalanche325
Thanks, I've never claimed to be a good or competent mechanic, I hire out what I can't do, don't know about.
Your idea sounds promising, thank you.
Just thought of 3rd possible way to get W/C Veteran into Cobra, in his chair, or custom designed chair to fit better.
Have trunk hinged from right side, rather than back, have trunk cowl hinged from right side.
Plenty of room for ramp in trunk.
The Vet drops folding ramp, opens trunk, rolls into trunk, opens cowl, rolls onto platform, as trunk bottom is one foot +/- above Bennett floor. Then 12 V scissors jack raises him one inch, he takes off wheels, arm rests, stores under cowl, and jack lowers him to driving height.
A thought from the peanut gallery: interesting idea to have the Vet roll into the car from the rear. In this case, you want the entire rear of the car as low as possible. What about going to a front drive orientation? There are lots of high performance options for front drive cars, and given the weight of the chassis, you don't even need that much power. Front drive allows you to redesign the rear end without any interference from differentials or axles. You could have an IRS off a standard front drive car that leaves much of the trunk flat - and low. Just my 2 cents.
Mk IV Roadster - #8650 - delivered 7-17-2015 - first start 7-28-2018 - first go-kart 10-13-2018 - licensed and on the road 9-9-19: body/paint completed 3-17-2020.
Complete kit / 2015 Coyote / TKO600 / IRS / Wilwood brakes / Mid-Shift mod / Power Steering / Heater and Seat Heaters / RT turn signal / Breeze radiator shroud and mount
As someone who teaches neurorehabilitation to DPT students, I am super excited to see this. Please consider posting occasional progress updates here, as I'd love to see how this turns out and even include some finished pictures (with your permission) in my lectures on adapted driving and recreation.
--Nathan
My thoughts exactly. I'm a spinal cord injury physiatrist and teach the local neuro-rehabilitation course on spinal cord injury to the DPT students here in Boston. Very excited at the idea of a WC accessible Cobra! Keep up the exciting work!
You know, your idea of front wheel drive is intreging.
I think, we're I confined to a wheelchair, (heaven forbid) id be more than happy to be driving a Cobra look a like, rather than a boring van.
Sure, not Cobra drive train, but equal power/tourq could be achieved. The tunnel would be negelable, roll in back, simplified ramp, awsome!
Wow, awsome, where the he'll were you when I first started this project?
Opie has not installed 289 engine trans yet.
I like your idea so much, I'm asking Opie to find front wheel drive set up.
Open to any and all suggestions for front wheel drive/engine, PLEASE!I
THANK YOU AL_C when this comes to fruatition, you have my hat off to you for offering an absolutely fantastic suggestion
I, too, would like to see this succeed! There are so many possibilities here. I am not an engineer, but there are certainly plenty of them on this forum. I'm pretty certain that between this community and your resources, you can come up with a plan that will work. Go for it!
Mk IV Roadster - #8650 - delivered 7-17-2015 - first start 7-28-2018 - first go-kart 10-13-2018 - licensed and on the road 9-9-19: body/paint completed 3-17-2020.
Complete kit / 2015 Coyote / TKO600 / IRS / Wilwood brakes / Mid-Shift mod / Power Steering / Heater and Seat Heaters / RT turn signal / Breeze radiator shroud and mount
Like AL_C and everyone else, we'd love to see you pull this off.
If you can go with a Shorty Power Glide, IRS and Rear Wheel Drive then I think it is more than doable.
The engine just needs to scoot forward to the point where the center-line of the engine is in line with where the side pipes exit.
If you take a look at this old video I did you can see just how much room you can get if the motor is scooted forward to that point.
Using the Shorty-Glide would likely give you the room you need, plus if you put the throttle on the shifter, then he can truly bang though the two gears.
TERRYL
Regarding transaxles, corvettes have nice ones. Haven't looked at them closely but they would certainly handle any reasonable power.
Al_C
I'm not an engineer either, just going by the seat of my pants. Already got tons of help, ideas, suggestions, thanks!
Now, the hard part, continue the Cobra 289 auto power plant, or switch midstream and consider transaxle, fwd?
GoDadGo
Like AL_C and everyone else, we'd love to see you pull this off.
If you can go with a Shorty Power Glide, IRS and Rear Wheel Drive then I think it is more than doable.
The engine just needs to scoot forward to the point where the center-line of the engine is in line with where the side pipes exit.
If you take a look at this old video I did you can see just how much room you can get if the motor is scooted forward to that point.
Using the Shorty-Glide would likely give you the room you need, plus if you put the throttle on the shifter, then he can truly bang though the two gears.
I'd, much prefer to go with "standard Cobra drive train", but.....whatever will work.
The Bennett Cobra is so perfect for this application, with floor sitting 2" lower than normal/standard cobra, making the ramp less steep, and therefor shorter.
Mike's Automotive, Opie and his crew are awesome, excited about making this work. I'm lucky enough to have a 289 Bennett body/chassis sitting here, just begging to get on the road; maybe attack it both ways?
For Mike's Automotive to have a Cobra painted on his sign/business cards, well, that's what made me stop there 5 years ago, in the first place.
Although the original Mike, and now Opie, who bought the business about a year ago, neither have Cobras of their own, I've seen several Cobras in their shop, being worked on.
Cleaning out my Cobra files I found picture I did, superemposing w/C person into silhouette Cobra, dated 6 years ago. So this is not a new idea to me. It's been bouncing around my brain for years, so glad I can attempt to make it actually work at this time in my !ife.
I took Bennett 289 body/ chassis to mikes, two prong attack, continue on with original idea on 427, and attack 289 body, with front wheel drive, gambel, but WTF, mayby one of two ideas will work.
Here is another thought. Engines don't HAVE to sit perfectly parallel in the car and axles don't have to be the same length. You could angle the engine so the transmission points more towards the passenger door. Offset the differential to the passenger side. It could be a little, or pretty radical.
I got the idea from this show - Ant Anstead Master Mechanic. If you have Motor Trend TV, it is an interesting build of an single seater Alfa 158 - ish replica. He angles the engine quite a bit, so he isn't straddling the driveshaft and has the shifter in a more normal position.
Yes, you could laterally skew the drive train alignment some but to avoid vibration you'd need either CV joints instead of common u-joints or double cardan joints. Using double cardans you might get as much as 30-deg operating angle but more than that is inviting phase vibration. 30-deg on such a short WB car won't really move the drive line over that far even if using a center supported two-piece driveshaft.
But a v-drive could allow a significant driveshaft offset to the passenger side if that was the direction chosen. Boats use v-drives and 4x4 transfer cases use a similar method for offsetting the front driveshaft. These can be gear drives or chain drives but I've never run across an off the shelf v-drive that would work for this application. If there is not an off the shelf part that would work, you could design and fab one but now we're talking BIG $$ and lots of experimenting.
Dart Little M 406" SBC 800 HP N/A & 1,100 HP on nitrous, 2-spd Powerglide with trans brake, 6,000 RPM stall converter, narrowed Moser 88 3.90:1 spool with 35-spline gun-drilled axles & Torino bearings, custom parallel four-link, custom tube chassis & roll cage NHRA certified for 8.5-sec (only two FFR Hot Rods have this cert).
Yes, you could laterally skew the drive train alignment some but to avoid vibration you'd need either CV joints instead of common u-joints or double cardan joints.
Good point. I'm going to to look at that show again to see if he mentions anything. He has a pretty big skew on that engine and offset the differential. So certainly has mismatched driveline angles.