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Thread: More bad news

  1. #1
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    More bad news

    Well I pulled a bearing today and found scoring. This means the whole engine needs an overhaul. So pulled the engine today.
    sad engine bay

    John

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    Making progress on the "My Coupe, my way" project.

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    How many miles? Who built the engine? What was the oil pressure? Any noise?

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  4. #3

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    John,

    With that much damage in the rotating assembly you likely will need to replace the cam bearings too.
    Hang In There Because Time Is On Your Side!

    Steve

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    Administrator 65 Cobra Dude's Avatar
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    You got this John!!! We all have setbacks but you can overcome this!

    Henry

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    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcdata View Post
    How many miles? Who built the engine? What was the oil pressure? Any noise?
    Wrong oil for a flat tapped cam did the engine in. Killed the cam and the lifters. Should’ve had zinc enriched oil
    Making progress on the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  9. #6
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoDadGo View Post
    John,

    With that much damage in the rotating assembly you likely will need to replace the cam bearings too.
    Hang In There Because Time Is On Your Side!

    Steve
    Yeah complete overhaul at this point, or maybe looking for another block
    Making progress on the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  10. #7
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 65 Cobra Dude View Post
    You got this John!!! We all have setbacks but you can overcome this!

    Henry
    Working on it already!!
    Making progress on the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

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  12. #8
    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
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    John, that's some large scoring on the bearing in your photo. Pay close attention on disassembly and try to determine all the causes for the failures, starting with the cam. I tend to agree that using the wrong oil on a flat tappet cam is asking for trouble. Modern oils have been neutered of heavy metals that plate out on the bearing surfaces and act as anti-wear barriers as they also plate the cats on new cars. But don't just assume that's the only contributor to the failures.

    The heavy scoring looks to be from particles much larger than a good filter should pass so you may find a root cause and several contributory causes that exacerbated the damage. It's important to determine the cause of a failure to put mitigation in place to prevent a follow on failure. If this was my engine and I was not the builder I'd be checking clearances as I disassembled the components looking for improper assembly practices that might also contribute to the failure.

    Once the engine is ready to run, use a good quality break in oil with lot's of anti-wear additives like ZDDP and phosphorus (let's just call it zinc). I prefer Driven BR30 for break in oil but there are other good ones out there too. Use a viscosity compatible with the bearing clearances. Do an internet search and you'll find charts with recommended weight oil for bearing clearances. Once the rings and cam are broken in you may want to continue with an oil containing higher levels of zinc -- unless you're running "cats" and then you're limited on the zinc constituent as the metals like lead and zinc will contaminate the cats. They also will eventually contaminate O2 sensors but those are easy to change and relatively cheap. It's a trade-off between bearing, cam, and cylinder protecting and a $100 sensor change every couple or three years. Here's something about oil shear and anti-wear you may find interesting and it's why I use zinc rich oil whenever I can get away with it: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/effects-of-shearing/

    I won't start a debate on oil filters but I have ones I trust and have cut open enough different brands to know which ones I will never use. Purchase an oil filter cutter and at the first few oil changes (I encourage you to do this every oil change) cut open the filter and inspect the filter media, both clean side and dirty side for metal particles that would indicate an issue.
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  14. #9
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    I'd really like to see your oil filter info Naz.
    FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.

  15. #10

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    John,

    Could a short block save you time and money?
    https://blueprintengines.com/product...rtblock-bp3472

    What about a complete engine that has a warranty and a roller cam?
    https://blueprintengines.com/product...block-bp3060ct

    If you have to spend some money, why not increase the displacement a few inches.
    https://blueprintengines.com/product...block-bp3474ct

    You'll get through this, but it truly is a pain in your liquid assets (Wallet) while you are dealing with it.

    Steve

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  17. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Dol View Post
    Wrong oil for a flat tapped cam did the engine in. Killed the cam and the lifters. Should’ve had zinc enriched oil
    It's an easy conversion to a roller cam. There's a reason the factories quit using flat tappets decades ago.
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  19. #12
    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
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    Craig, I’ve been an off and on student of oil filtration since the late 70’s but don’t claim to be a subject matter expert – just a good student. In a previous life working as an engineer for Anheuser-Busch I was fortunate to have a broad base of engineering and scientific support from Mobil Oil, one of my larger suppliers. Mobil oil triboligists and lubrication engineers have a vast knowledge of all things related to lubrication including filtration which they readily shared for my benefit. Also, I was supported by Schneider and Womack, both industrial oil filtration equipment manufacturers who taught me a lot about filtration of oil. And I enjoy researching a variety of technology-based subjects so my experience and knowledge on the subject of filtration has been years of bits and pieces from here and there.


    I will tell you that good filter characteristics go beyond the simple SAE J806 filtration test results. But there is so much to learn about the subject in general and automotive specifically and there is not nearly enough room to discuss on a forum. I’ll leave you with this link to start you on what I’m sure is a continuation of what you already know about oil filtration: https://www.motor.com/newsletters/20...sInTheCan.html
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  20. #13
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    Thanks Steve, but a little more then I can spend right now.
    Looking at options though
    Last edited by John Dol; 11-22-2019 at 10:31 PM.
    Making progress on the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  21. #14
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    NAZ,

    I cut my filter open and there was no evidence of any metal on either side. I did this before opening the engine to see if I had bigger issues.
    So kinda thought I was going to be ok. I guess you can trust an oil filter like you can trust a fart!
    Making progress on the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  22. #15
    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
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    Seems likely you'd find metal debris in your filter when you cut it open, even if you're using a poor quality filter. But perhaps not if the filter was being by-passed before the cam started the accelerated wear, or at least perhaps not much metal particulates will be present. I would expect the size of the particulates that caused that scoring to be much greater than 30-microns (.0012") or about half the total bearing clearance and a size that you might start to see some wear on the bearings. Might want to reconsider your oil filter selection.

    The only way particulates will enter the pressurized bearings is from the pump and thru the filter (if it is not by-passed). One problem with filter selection is trying to filter out the smallest particles -- smaller than what really cause damage. Tight filters will blind earlier and can go into by-pass mode. There is no filtering being done when the by-pass valve is open. Just something to consider.
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  23. #16

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    John,

    Sorry to hear of this setback. On the plus side, you can do a few mods with the motor torn down ... hydraulic roller cam, stroker crank, etc.

    Happens to all of us, sooner or later. Fall of 2017, my 331 in the challenge car fried several rod bearings while at Atlanta Motorsports Park due to oil starvation. I ditched the Canton road race pan in favor of an 8.5 quart Aviaid pan. Crank was scored but .020 under cleaned up the crank. Went to a slightly stouter cam and changed all the front dress to v-belt. Now when I open the hood, it looks like a Cobra, instead of a '90's Mustang GT.

    Hope you're on the road soon, John!

    Garry
    I sure miss my coupe!

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  25. #17
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    Definitely debris. What were your clearances ?

  26. #18
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    Thanks Garry,

    It will be spring now before I get to driving, the snow will be flying soon.
    Was hoping to ha=3 it finished on the round number of 10 years, but it seems it will be 11 now.
    Who’s counting...
    Making progress on the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  27. #19
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcdata View Post
    Definitely debris. What were your clearances ?
    Not sure. My engine was build by a shop 7 years ago or so. They are now out of business so no recourse there.
    Making progress on the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  28. #20
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    Your bearing is overheated besides the debris. Possible oil breakdown or insufficient clearance. No doubt there's debris.

  29. #21
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    John when you had the issues with the EFI did you also get fuel in the oil? dilution of the oil with gas can cause bearing and other failures.
    David W
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  30. #22
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Williamson View Post
    John when you had the issues with the EFI did you also get fuel in the oil? dilution of the oil with gas can cause bearing and other failures.
    David W
    David,

    Not sure if I did or not. Don’t think so but who knows at this point.

    John
    Making progress on the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  31. #23
    Senior Member SSNK4US's Avatar
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    There are so many possibilities.... we all could guess forever....

    I’m really sorry John.... breaks my heart to see something like that

    Kurt
    If everything seems under control, you’re just not going fast enough....

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  33. #24
    Senior Member SSNK4US's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigS View Post
    I'd really like to see your oil filter info Naz.
    Hay Craig, I don’t know if you’ve ever looked but type “oil filter comparison” into YouTube and you’ll find a whole bunch of stuff on oil filters. Some just cut opens (oh wow I don’t wanna buy one of those) and some technical, microns etc. Either way some interesting viewing.

    Kurt
    If everything seems under control, you’re just not going fast enough....

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  34. #25
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    Thanks Kurt!
    Making progress on the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  35. #26
    Senior Member xlr8or's Avatar
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    If you have a remote oil cooler on there you should replace it as well. You'll likely never be able to get allof the metalic bits out of it.
    It's never too early to start beefing up your obituary.

  36. #27
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xlr8or View Post
    If you have a remote oil cooler on there you should replace it as well. You'll likely never be able to get allof the metalic bits out of it.
    Finally a highlight! I don't have one

    John
    Making progress on the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

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  38. #28
    Senior Member AC Bill's Avatar
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    Could you not just have the crank and cam, (if needed) ground, and throw a set of oversize bearings in?

  39. #29
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AC Bill View Post
    Could you not just have the crank and cam, (if needed) ground, and throw a set of oversize bearings in?
    Going to call a engine shop tomorrow and talk about options.
    I have a line on a 347 too which would be sweet.

    John
    Making progress on the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

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