GashF16's Gen 3 Coupe Build Questions

[GashF16]

I'm starting a separate thread for my questions so that the dedicated "Build Thread" can be a little more focused on build progress. Others here on the forum have done the same. Good idea.

So, with that, here's a couple questions. I am doing 3/8" SS fuel lines for both supply and return lines. (I already have a good tube bender, the Eastwood professional flaring tool, 255 lph in tank pump, Pro-M high flow hanger, Trick Flow fuel filter, Breeze fuel pressure regulator).

1. Is it correct to do 45 degree double flares for 3/8" stainless tubing? Somewhere deep in my airplane building memory I thought 37 degree single flare is what you're supposed to use on stainless steel. Is it different here? In other words, are we doing flares for SAE or JIC fittings?
2. I want to make a quick shopping list for 3/8" tube lengths, braided hoses and all necessary fittings to buy at Inline Tube. Drives me nuts when I order the wrong things, or not enough of the right things. Does anybody have a good list of all the pieces I need to buy please? I'm copying edwardb's fuel system exactly. By the way, thanks Paul for all the detailed chassis photos--that's really helped me visualize how I want to run my fuel and brake lines.

Thanks for the help. -- Karl

[P100DHG]

1. Use compression AN-6 fittings and you’re not going to need to flare a thing. That’s the simple answer. Which ones you need males, females, would be more specific to your particular build and I’m sure we can help with a parts list.

2. I used 1 piece of 10 foot length to accomplish my configuration. You can check it out on my build thread. However mine is on the passenger side and yours is likely on the drivers side, if I recall correctly you’re doing a coyote. So get 2 pieces of 10 foot cause you need to get from the driver side over to the pick up area on the passenger side. 10 feet barely was enough for my configuration.

I hope that helps. I would layout your solid lines and then deal with your flex lines and take it in 2 parts. But that’s just how my brain works. I try to take things in smaller chunks. It’s good you have the fuel filter, it will help you line everything up better. I like Paul’s configuration a lot, I think we all do, it’s very clean. I did a slight adaptation to it but I fully endorse it.

[edwardb]

Thanks for the shout outs. 45° SAE style double flares are common for brake lines, for example, and what typically are used in our builds. 37° is for AN style fittings, or JIC which are similar. Whether SS tubing or not doesn't matter. For the 3/8 fuel lines, I highly recommend using compression fittings as suggested. SS is hard enough to get good flares, and the compression fittings eliminate the flares for the fuel lines and trust me you'll appreciate not having to do them. The ones I use are Ham-Let Stainless Steel 316 Let-Lok Compression Fitting, Adapter, 3/8" Tube OD x 37 Degree Flare. This takes you directly to an AN-6 connection without additional adapters, which is perfect. Available from Breeze Automotive. https://www.breezeautomotive.com/sho...ainless-steel/. They're an industrial part, and I've found them occasionally on Amazon or even eBay. But there are so many variations, not easy to find. Mark will get them right out to you and they're bulletproof.

[Bob Brandle]

I also went the 3/8" SS tubing route using Ham-Let 316 SS Compression Bulkhead Unions. Ran a single supply tube from near the fuel tank to just inside the engine compartment and then a second return pipe parallel to the supply pipe. You just have to figure out the correct sets of fitting and interconnect parts to transition to/from the flexible hoses at both ends. No flaring of the 3/8" SS needed, which was the point with the Hamlet compression fittings.

[GashF16]

Thanks guys, this is super helpful. I just got off the phone with Mark at Breeze Automotive. He took the time to go through everything with me and we put together a parts order that's probably 95% correct (there's always that "one thing" I didn't order...never fails). Mark's a great guy, and I highly recommend him for help with ordering this stuff.

On a side note, Mark questioned if I really want to run the fuel line through the transmission tunnel, due to the fire hazard if the drive shaft breaks. Seems like a good point. Are there other options for the Coupe to consider? Maybe fuel lines in a protective conduit in the trans tunnel area? I am going to put in a drive shaft hoop from Jegs, but maybe I could be doing more?

[NAZ]

Listen to Mark's advice -- don't run fuel or brake lines through the tunnel. However, having said that I understand that the chassis design of the coupe makes this a challenge. For a fabricator like me I'd design-out that issue but if you must run critical lines through the tunnel consider running them enclosed within A513 DOM tubing or 4130N tubing with at least .120" wall but I'd suggest .134" wall.

Having experienced two driveshaft explosions I can tell you the damage is like you set off a couple pounds of C-4 strapped to the chassis -- very impressive. Your brake and fuel lines won't stand a chance. And while your thinking about that also think about where that drive shaft is positioned and if it were to explode what safety hazard would that present to you and your passenger? Consider using drive shaft loops front and rear minimum or even a drive shaft enclosure similar to what NHRA requires.

[GashF16]

NAZ, thanks for the ideas and metal specs. I'm going to look at how to do something like this.

[NAZ]

This subject has come up before and when I first saw photos of the chassis my first thought was to build a pipe chase under or beside the passenger seat. That way the brake and fuel lines are run inside the perimeter frame rails providing crash protection. the pipe chase can be formed out of alum sheet metal and can be made removable by using 10-32 riv-nuts into the floor and bolting through flanges on the pipe chase cover. The cover would be formed like a channel no taller than the room under the passenger seat. The channel would have flanges that would attach it to the floor. The tubing would penetrate the forward and rear bulkheads at an elevation that places the tubing along the plane of the floor. This description may sound like you are running your lines through the cockpit but in reality you are running them under the pipe chase cover -- same as if you ran them directly under the floor. If concerned about a fuel leak seeping into the cockpit you can run a series of drain holes directly under the tubing runs or cut out that section of the flooring so that the tubing runs are completely open to the underside of the car.

Something to consider or perhaps stimulate other ideas.

[GashF16]

I'm about ready to install my Coyote and T56 and discovered that I have no engine mounts/spacers. I bought the engine and trans already built from FFR. On my box inventory sheets, they lined out the engine mount and spacer parts, I assume because they thought they already installed them on the engine. But there are no engine mounts on the engine...I think somebody back at the shop forgot to do it. Of course I didn't notice until today when I'm about ready to hoist this baby in.

Question: Does anybody know where I can get mounts and spacers? I'm thinking the mounts can be bought online, but I'm worried that the spacers are fabricated by FFR only. Factory Five's phone message says they're closed until May 4, so I hope I'm not sitting on my butt for a month. Any suggestions?

No mounts installed on the crate motor
No engine mount.JPG
You can see where FFR lined out the parts in question...so of course I never looked for them when I was doing post-delivery inventory!
Box 16 inventory.jpg
Box 22 inventory.jpg

[edwardb]

Wow, that's a bummer. I have not experience with buying an engine from Factory Five. So not familiar with what they should have included or not. But sure looks like they should have been part of that mounted engine. The mounts are available at Summit or whatever: Energy Suspension 4.6L Mustang Motor Mounts 4.1127G, Energy Suspension Transmission Mount 4.1104G. Not cheap though. The spacers on the other hand are custom Factory Five parts as you suspected. You might try sending an email to their info address. I've heard they are answering those. But unlikely they could ship anything to you before they're open again.

Your build is looking great by the way. Excellent progress.

[GashF16]

Thanks Paul. I did get a reply from FFR on their info email address. David from IT is monitoring that email. He said he'd forward my request to the tech guys, but I haven't heard anything yet. Since I need to get those spacers from FFR anyway, I'll just wait for them to send the mounts too. I'm hoping I'm not dead in the water for the next month until they can go back to work. There's always plenty of other miscellaneous stuff to do.

[David Williamson]

you can always start on the body fitting, that will keep you busy for a few weeks.
good luck with it and let us know how it goes
David W

[GashF16]

Quick update. I got the engine in and the engine and transmission mounts all lined up and fit perfectly. (BIG thank you to edwardb for pointing out that the transmission frame plate is depicted upside down in the FFR manual!) I do have a question about the driveshaft yoke bolts though. The 4 bolts supplied with my FFR complete kit are too big (diameter too wide). They don't fit through the yoke or the adapter plate. Not sure why FFR supplied the wrong bolts in the box containing the driveshaft. Did anybody else run into this? What is the correct bolt size? Sorry if this is discussed in another thread...I searched and found nothing.

Also, I'm concerned that these 4 smaller bolts would shear off under high engine torque. It seems crazy that these 4 relatively small bolts are all that's holding this together.

[edwardb]

The driveshaft adapter bolts should be M10X25. Just check to make sure they torque down properly without bottoming out. At least two different versions of the driveshaft U-joint have been supplied with FF kit driveshafts, with different flange thicknesses. Some are steel and some are aluminum. Resulting in the supplied bolts being too long in some cases. If necessary, you could go to a shorter size bolt or even use a washer I guess. I prefer to just grind a bit off the bolts if too long. No washers and maximum thread engagement. Others have commented and even questioned the four bolts as well. Even saw an engineering study on it. Above my pay grade. Bottom line, it's completely OK.

[GashF16]

Thanks very much, that's a big help. Off to Summit Racing...

[GashF16]

Am I missing stuff on the back of my Gen 3 Coyote? See the 3 photos taken from above and behind the engine while standing on the passenger side. There's a boss mount with 3 holes and nothing's there. I don't see anything on this engine that resembles CMCV equipment I've seen in other build photos. I'm wondering if FFR left something off (I bought this engine from them).

IMG_1423.jpg
IMG_1422.jpg
InkedIMG_1421_LI.jpg

[GashF16]

And another question for today. Does anyone have experience with Forte hydraulic clutches? I'm installing mine right now and am not sure how to figure what length to cut the slave cylinder push rod. Forte sends it too long (intentionally, I'm sure). But there are no instructions with the kit. I'd call Mike, but it's too late / weekend now...I'd rather get this thing knocked out and not have to wait until Monday.

[edwardb]

Am I missing stuff on the back of my Gen 3 Coyote? See the 3 photos taken from above and behind the engine while standing on the passenger side. There's a boss mount with 3 holes and nothing's there. I don't see anything on this engine that resembles CMCV equipment I've seen in other build photos. I'm wondering if FFR left something off (I bought this engine from them).

The Boss intake doesn't have the CMCV setup. So it's normal to remove the vacuum motors, sensors, hoses, etc. when it's installed. Couple of those bosses are Ford's lift locations for the engine, so don't have anything in them anyway.

And another question for today. Does anyone have experience with Forte hydraulic clutches? I'm installing mine right now and am not sure how to figure what length to cut the slave cylinder push rod. Forte sends it too long (intentionally, I'm sure). But there are no instructions with the kit. I'd call Mike, but it's too late / weekend now...I'd rather get this thing knocked out and not have to wait until Monday.

Yeah, unfortunately Mike isn't real big with instructions although apparently he will answer his phone most any time. Regardless -- you just have to sneak up on it. Get everything mounted. Then with the boot off the slave cylinder, put the ball pivot on the end of the pushrod and set into place. Then reference against the clutch arm pivot with the Heim joint and the throwout bearing pushing against the clutch. Trim the unthreaded end to put the Heim joint at roughly the center of the threads. I normally trim a little at a time several times. Hard to put material back if too short.

[GashF16]

Thanks edwardb. I wonder what issues I'm going to run into when it gets Dyno'd. I can't decide if having the CMCV deleted (literally!) is a good or bad thing with the Gen 3.