flat tappet break-in advice

[egchewy79]

I posted this on the other forum as well:

So I've rebuilt a 289 SBF with a buddy of mine with there original plan of getting first start and break in on an engine stand. I'm at the point of my build where I'm ready to install the engine and my buddy's not available. A bit of background, using fitech and we figured first start and break in would be easier using an old carb out of the car, esp since I'm running a high psi pump. I'm also an engine novice and need help as I'm afraid of trashing the cam if not done correctly. So as I see it, my possible options are
1) go ahead and install everything, then first start and break in while on the frame
2) wait around for said buddy to become available and proceed with original plan
3) find a speed shop for first start/ break in/ dyno

Opinions?

and another member notified me of cam kings. they will break in your cam and lifters in their contraption, and then send them back to you numbered. i wish i had known about this prior to assembling the motor.

[2FAST4U]

https://dannysengineportal.com/zinc-...fter-break-in/

[NAZ]

I break-in my engines on a test stand. The advantage of that is if you find a minor problem (usually a leak) it's easier to fix on the stand than in the frame. I suspect most folks simply install the engine before test running it. That's the way I did it years ago before I got smarter. And when I was working as a Ford service tech, we didn't have a test stand so the first start was always in the car or truck.

Be sure to follow the cam manufacturer's break-in recommendations and use a good break-in oil. I use BR30: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/j...SABEgJ4FvD_BwE and use a good quality filter which you should cut open and inspect after you've run the engine long enough to break in the cam. Filter cutter: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-90051


https://www.compcams.com/pub/media/w...chBulletin.pdf

[wrp]

+1 on the above. I also use Blackstone Labs on the first oil change and every other change afterwards. Saved some major bucks doing that

[ptstew]

use a good quality filter which you should cut open and inspect after you've run the engine long enough to break in the cam. Filter cutter: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-90051


https://www.compcams.com/pub/media/w...chBulletin.pdf[/QUOTE]
Can you point me to a site where I can learn how to read a cut open filter?
Thanks, Phil

[NAZ]

This is another one of those diagnostic tools that require experience and common sense to decipher. The more you do this and the deeper your understanding of engines the better decisions you will make. It's common to see some metal in an engine as it breaks in. How much is too much is often a debatable subject. Here's some info to start you on your way to learning how to inspect an oil filter and how to understand what it may be telling you should you find metal. Of course, you can send the particles to a lab and they can tell you what the metal is but by using a magnet you can determine yourself if it is ferrous or non-ferrous metals and that with and understanding of the construction of an engine can tell you a lot without the lab weighing in.

This is a start -- do your own research and educate yourself on the subject. Part of the benefit of building your own car is the education it requires. Good luck.

As an after thought I'll add this. The more you cut open different brands of filters the more you will start to see there is a vast difference in quality of construction materials. Not to start a filter feud, but there are some very popular filters out there that in my opinion are total junk. I will never use an oil filter that uses cardboard construction but one of the most popular "cheap" filters on the market is made with cardboard. There are a few filters that I trust and they are not always the tightest in terms of particle size rating. Particle size is overly stressed -- flow, as in too little, will kill an engine much quicker than particle size. And the longer a filter is in use the more it filters. Filters should be changed on pressure differential not cycle count (miles or hours) but a typical automotive oil filter installation does not have the gauges in place to facilitate that.

How to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwVGHdZTA58
What if: https://resources.savvyaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/articles_eaa/EAA_2013-01_how-much-is-too-much.pdf

[ptstew]

Thanks so much, NAZ. Very helpful. Put a BluePrint 302 long block in my car about a year ago. Has about 1,500 miles. Running very well, plenty of power, but oil consumption seems a bit high at ~ 500 miles/quart. Used BP breakin oil to start and again at 500 miles and now running regular Castrol 10w40. BP says it will take about 2,000 miles to settle out. Thought it would be interesting to check out filter at next oil change.

[OVCobra]

As NAZ notes, follow your cam manufacturer's break-in guidance; hopefully the cam lobes and lifter bottoms were lubricated with the recommended cam break in lube? So important to keep engine speed above 2,000 rpm (vary between 2,000 rpm and 2,500 rpm) for at least 30 minutes.
DO NOT use synthetic oil for break-in...good chance rings will not seat properly. Again agree with the use of BR30 break-in oil which is mineral based.
Following break-in period, do an oil change...some of the cam break-in lubes will tend to clog up the filter and again as NAZ notes, inspect the filter.
Once break-in is complete, ensure that you are using an oil with elevated zinc di-thiophospate as long as the flat tappet cam is in the motor.

Good Luck

[Jeff Kleiner]

...oil consumption seems a bit high at ~ 500 miles/quart....

Yikes! That's up there in Subaru territory.

Jeff

[ptstew]

Yikes! That's up there in Subaru territory.

Jeff

Man, I’ve never been in Subaru territory before. I figure I’ll do the 2,000 miles BluePrint wants and reevaluate consumption. If it’s still high I’ll see what they say. If “Send block back and we’ll send you another, labor on you”, I’ll probably just deal with it as I change the oil every ~1,000 miles anyway.

[NAZ]

Using a quart every 500 miles is an indicator of a problem. I'll assume you checked for leaks so I expect you're going to see that oil on the spark plugs (shiny black wet looking fouling). That won't heal itself so better start looking for the cause.

[ptstew]

Using a quart every 500 miles is an indicator of a problem. I'll assume you checked for leaks so I expect you're going to see that oil on the spark plugs (shiny black wet looking fouling). That won't heal itself so better start looking for the cause.

I hear ya, NAZ. I’ll check plugs.

[Dragonfire]

NAZ

Good observation regarding 1 qt. per 500 miles. Just an interesting note. The automobile industry standard for oil comsumption is 1 qt. per 1,000 miles. That really gets me. My Honda carries 4.8 qt. of oil and i have to add 4 qts. per 5,000 miles (normal oil change mileage) and Honda is OK with that.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Man, I’ve never been in Subaru territory before. I figure I’ll do the 2,000 miles BluePrint wants and reevaluate consumption. If it’s still high I’ll see what they say. If “Send block back and we’ll send you another, labor on you”, I’ll probably just deal with it as I change the oil every ~1,000 miles anyway.

You might want to send a message to "Badasp427" Carl.

Jeff

[Jeff Kleiner]

NAZ

...The automobile industry standard for oil comsumption is 1 qt. per 1,000 miles....

Not an "industry standard", just the number that Honda and Subaru agreed to when they settled the class actions on high oil consumption.

Jeff

[first time builder]

A flat tappet cam needs an oil with zinc in it for its entire life. There are several out there and also a zinc additive. I have run shell Rotella in several I have built and after many miles still good. I also like Joe Gibbs oil. The Hot rod stuff is military spec for long layup between run times.
Read the following: PS I am not affiliated with Gibbs or a dealer.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forum...Number=1033877

[NAZ]

A flat tappet cam needs an oil with zinc in it for its entire life. There are several out there and also a zinc additive. I have run shell Rotella in several I have built and after many miles still good. I also like Joe Gibbs oil. The Hot rod stuff is military spec for long layup between run times.

True, they need zinc but while Rotella used to have higher zinc content the later formulations, not so much. There are specialty oils now with high zinc but are not intended for emission controlled cars. I use Mobil 1 Synthetic Racing oil, 0W-50 on my race car as it contains a lot of zinc -- more than the old version of Rotella.

[NAZ]

I hear ya, NAZ. I’ll check plugs.

The plugs should be the first check as if you only have one or two plugs showing oil that helps limit the scope of your search. Most will likely point to the rings as a problem and they certainly could be but that's not my first suspect. Since you don't have any smog devices (PCV circuit) we can eliminate that as a source. Lets say you have a couple of plugs showing oil -- look at valve stem seals on those cylinders. The seals can be damaged when installing them or the springs. An intake gasket leak can suck oil. And if the rocker studs protrude into the intake port (can't remember on the SBF if they do) these need to be installed with thread sealant or they will suck oil.

Lastly, the oil control rings (second ring and oil ring set) may have not sealed. A leak down test can help track this down and a borescope inspection may help shed some light on an individual cylinder issue.

[ptstew]

The plugs should be the first check as if you only have one or two plugs showing oil that helps limit the scope of your search. Most will likely point to the rings as a problem and they certainly could be but that's not my first suspect. Since you don't have any smog devices (PCV circuit) we can eliminate that as a source. Lets say you have a couple of plugs showing oil -- look at valve stem seals on those cylinders. The seals can be damaged when installing them or the springs. An intake gasket leak can suck oil. And if the rocker studs protrude into the intake port (can't remember on the SBF if they do) these need to be installed with thread sealant or they will suck oil.

Lastly, the oil control rings (second ring and oil ring set) may have not sealed. A leak down test can help track this down and a borescope inspection may help shed some light on an individual cylinder issue.

Thanks, NAZ. You have given me a lot to think about. It seems like everything you mentioned, except an intake gasket leak, should be warranted by BluePrint and right now they are punting until 2,000 miles. Anything else I might notice if I’m sucking oil through the intake gasket? I do have crankcase venting through a PCV valve from the lower intake manifold to the upper and also from the oil filler tube to the throttle body. I’ll check both of them, too. When I say no smog in my signature I just mean the air pump system and EGR.

[Derald Rice]

I remember having a similar situation with high oil consumption on a new motor. Some plugs had a lot of oil on them, others were clean.

Turned out that I had the wrong intake gaskets. Changed gaskets and problem went away.

[ptstew]

I remember having a similar situation with high oil consumption on a new motor. Some plugs had a lot of oil on them, others were clean.

Turned out that I had the wrong intake gaskets. Changed gaskets and problem went away.

It doesn’t seem like there is much choice in those gaskets. Do you remember what was wrong with them?

[first time builder]

Rotella 15-40 has 1200 PPM Zinc and your 0-50 Mobil has 1300 . I just dont like running that high viscosity on the street. I'll keep my Rotella and my Driven (Joe Gibbs) in the cars I started them in and use Mobil 1 in my new street cars.
There sure are a lot of choices out there ! I dont even know what the Zinc level is in the Gibbs but that car has a roller cam so wasnt that concerned. was more interested in the long layup protection.
At my age growing up, I used to buy bulk in the bottle that was drainback oil and didnt even know what brand or weight it was. There also used to be recycled oil. Times were tough. There was no such thing as Synth.
Kenny

[Derald Rice]

It doesn’t seem like there is much choice in those gaskets. Do you remember what was wrong with them?

The engine was a crate 302 with a cobra intake. When I complained about the oil consumption, Max at Five Star sent me the correct FelPros, sorry but I don't remember the numbers.

[ptstew]

The engine was a crate 302 with a cobra intake. When I complained about the oil consumption, Max at Five Star sent me the correct FelPros, sorry but I don't remember the numbers.

Interesting, my car is a 302 with a 93 Cobra intake. I used Fel Pro gaskets.

[Derald Rice]

I'll try to go through some of the old paperwork to see if I can find anything. IIRC, the Cobra intake was the problem part of the combination. This was in 2008 that I did this. The correct gaskets were felpro, but sent to me by ford.

[ptstew]

I'll try to go through some of the old paperwork to see if I can find anything. IIRC, the Cobra intake was the problem part of the combination. This was in 2008 that I did this. The correct gaskets were felpro, but sent to me by ford.

Thanks, Derald. Sounding very similar.

[NAZ]

Rotella 15-40 has 1200 PPM Zinc and your 0-50 Mobil has 1300 . I just dont like running that high viscosity on the street. I'll keep my Rotella and my Driven (Joe Gibbs) in the cars I started them in and use Mobil 1 in my new street cars.
There sure are a lot of choices out there ! I dont even know what the Zinc level is in the Gibbs but that car has a roller cam so wasnt that concerned. was more interested in the long layup protection.
At my age growing up, I used to buy bulk in the bottle that was drainback oil and didnt even know what brand or weight it was. There also used to be recycled oil. Times were tough. There was no such thing as Synth.
Kenny

Thank you for correcting me. Can't remember my source of the formula change but it was obviously wrong.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Interesting, my car is a 302 with a 93 Cobra intake. I used Fel Pro gaskets.

And there may be your smoking gun. Some of the Cobra intakes had a small baffle at the PCV which would allow oil splash to be drawn in. After the problem was identified the fix was a larger baffle to keep the oil splash away; part number F6TZ-6L678-AA.

Of course you'll have to pull the intake to see which you have but it will be immediately obvious. The smaller baffle is shown in this photo:



And the larger one here:



Any time you replace an intake on a Ford Windsor be sure to use the gaskets with a steel core such as Victor Reintz Nitro Seal or Fel-Pro number 1250S3. Stay away from the non laminated "Print-O-Seal" Fel-Pro.

Good luck---and now maybe we can get back to Chewy's original cam break in topic!

Jeff



bafflesmall.jpg

bafflelarge.jpg

[ptstew]

Thanks, Jeff Kleiner. Sorry for diversion.