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Thread: Got Rust?

  1. #1
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    Lightbulb Got Rust?

    Greetings,

    I’m considering purchasing an MK4 kit but I’m debating to opt for not getting the powder coat and using an off-the-shelf antirust primer and then high temp paint. This is not necessarily because I’m trying to dodge the cost with a powder coat but because I can reapply at will with materials easily available to me.

    Any pros or cons comments would be much appreciated! Thanks!

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    Senior Member BEAR-AvHistory's Avatar
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    Can't do a pro/con because my experience is only with a powder coated chassis. Car kit delivered Feb 2014, NC tagged Mar 2015. Driven daily - 12,000 current miles & no chassis rust.
    Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 12-04-2019 at 12:57 PM.
    Kevin
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    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aircontroller View Post
    Greetings,

    IÂ’m considering purchasing an MK4 kit but IÂ’m debating to opt for not getting the powder coat and using an off-the-shelf antirust primer and then high temp paint. This is not necessarily because IÂ’m trying to dodge the cost with a powder coat but because I can reapply at will with materials easily available to me.

    Any pros or cons comments would be much appreciated! Thanks!
    Totally bad idea to NOT get the chassis powder coated.

    If it gets scraped or peels, rattle can Rustoleum Black Primer matches the current powder coat pretty well.

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    Why is it a bad idea?

    What loss of protection is there by going with a rustoleum type of primer?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoDadGo View Post
    Totally bad idea to NOT get the chassis powder coated.

    If it gets scraped or peels, rattle can Rustoleum Black Primer matches the current powder coat pretty well.
    Last edited by Aircontroller; 12-04-2019 at 01:57 PM.

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    I don't know about MK4 frames, but, my truck frame came powder coated. There were so many rough welds,mig wire sticks,welding splatter that there was no way they even wiped it off before coating. by the time I cleaned it up most of it needed a repaint.

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    Senior Member Avalanche325's Avatar
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    My car has 25k miles and I live at the beach. I am just now doing (literally on jack stands right now) some rustproofing and touch-up painting on my powdercoated frame. I am using Eastwood rust converter, rust encapsulator, and chassis paint. Basically, areas that face forward eventually get sandblasted.

    I put swaybays on and decided to clean, prime, and paint with Rustolium. That didn't even last a year and they need to be redone.

    Powdercoat is much tougher than regular paint.

    I would not use high temp paint. That is made specifically for temperature resistance. You need something that is made for impact toughness. If I were going DIY, I would have a look at something like POR-15.

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    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aircontroller View Post
    Why is it a bad idea?

    What loss of protection is there by going with a rustoleum type of primer?
    When you add up all the rattle cans, you will be shocked at how much you will spend.

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    It’s not a question regarding budget but more of practicality and material durability.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoDadGo View Post
    When you add up all the rattle cans, you will be shocked at how much you will spend.

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    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    I personally haven't. But a number of build threads have been posted where guys painted the frame. Most have said it was more work than they thought and the factory supplied powder coat now looked like a bargain. Having said that, probably makes sense if (1) If you're planning multiple changes including welding, (2) If you want another color beside the current offering of satin black. Other than that, I'd go with it. I get that Factory Five doesn't go too overboard cleaning up welds, splatter, etc. But in my experience it's not bad and very unlikely would take away from the finished product. X2 on powder coating being more durable than nearly anything you could apply yourself. POR15 might be the closest, but still not as durable.
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    Senior Member cv2065's Avatar
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    I think the powder coating option was $300 when I bought mine. Not sure if its different now, but it's a no brainer as far as I'm concerned. The amount of time and money that you'll spend with rattle cans sputtering, dripping and the ultimate finished product not looking smooth and silky, like you'd get from an FFR'd PC'd frame, I don't think is worth the trouble or the potential small savings...if any. The prep work will also need to be immaculate if you don't want peeling down the road...then you'll really have a mess. As has been mentioned, the durability will also be questionable with rattle cans. You are spending a LOT of dough on this kit...Now's not the time to start cutting corners...
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    Cv2065,

    I mentioned this on the first post and in a subsequent response, money is not a factor as part of this discussion.

    However, knowing more about how each product handles in the long term IS.



    Quote Originally Posted by cv2065 View Post
    I think the powder coating option was $300 when I bought mine. Not sure if its different now, but it's a no brainer as far as I'm concerned. The amount of time and money that you'll spend with rattle cans sputtering, dripping and the ultimate finished product not looking smooth and silky, like you'd get from an FFR'd PC'd frame, I don't think is worth the trouble or the potential small savings...if any. The prep work will also need to be immaculate if you don't want peeling down the road...then you'll really have a mess. As has been mentioned, the durability will also be questionable with rattle cans. You are spending a LOT of dough on this kit...Now's not the time to start cutting corners...

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    Thank you Paul! Very helpful.


    Quote Originally Posted by edwardb View Post
    I personally haven't. But a number of build threads have been posted where guys painted the frame. Most have said it was more work than they thought and the factory supplied powder coat now looked like a bargain. Having said that, probably makes sense if (1) If you're planning multiple changes including welding, (2) If you want another color beside the current offering of satin black. Other than that, I'd go with it. I get that Factory Five doesn't go too overboard cleaning up welds, splatter, etc. But in my experience it's not bad and very unlikely would take away from the finished product. X2 on powder coating being more durable than nearly anything you could apply yourself. POR15 might be the closest, but still not as durable.

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    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aircontroller View Post
    It’s not a question regarding budget but more of practicality and material durability.
    It's all about building your dream, be it painted or powder coated.
    If your mind was made up, why post the question.
    I'm sure you'll be happy in the end.
    Good Luck!

  17. #14
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    My apologies for offending anyone who ha done their chassis in POR, Rustoleum or similar but I've yet to see one that didn't look like crap. The FFR powdercoat is a bargain and durable---my own car is 13 years old and still intact and looks good. Same for a 15 year old orphan Mk3 that I'm building currently, even after spending the first 14 of those years in a barn. I built another orphaned Mk3 of 2005 vintage about 5 years ago and it still looked new. Of all the cars I've had come through my shop for paint I have yet to see one where the FFR optioned powdercoat was compromised. Now with that said, as has been mentioned if you want a different color you have to go elsewhere. Same if you want to clean up every bit of weld splatter, etc. but really unless you have plans of competing at the Grand National Roadster Show they are perfectly acceptable as delivered.

    Just my sometimes not so humble opinion and what I've seen/experienced...in the end your choice and money.

    Cheers,
    Jeff

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    Thank you for sharing your expertise!

    I appreciate it if u sound humble or not.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner View Post
    My apologies for offending anyone who ha done their chassis in POR, Rustoleum or similar but I've yet to see one that didn't look like crap. The FFR powdercoat is a bargain and durable---my own car is 13 years old and still intact and looks good. Same for a 15 year old orphan Mk3 that I'm building currently, even after spending the first 14 of those years in a barn. I built another orphaned Mk3 of 2005 vintage about 5 years ago and it still looked new. Of all the cars I've had come through my shop for paint I have yet to see one where the FFR optioned powdercoat was compromised. Now with that said, as has been mentioned if you want a different color you have to go elsewhere. Same if you want to clean up every bit of weld splatter, etc. but really unless you have plans of competing at the Grand National Roadster Show they are perfectly acceptable as delivered.

    Just my sometimes not so humble opinion and what I've seen/experienced...in the end your choice and money.

    Cheers,
    Jeff

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    Senior Member rich grsc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aircontroller View Post
    It’s not a question regarding budget but more of practicality and material durability.
    Well, simple fact, powder coating is vastly more durable that any paint. As for POR, I agree with Jeff, looks terrible, should be labeled POS.

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    I bought an unassembled kit, chassis in black powdercoat. Generally all good but:

    I've also modified the chassis a lot and had to clean off the original powder either chemically or by disk sanding. Then had to paint the chassis, used a 2-part paint after the welding. Should have used rattle can POR-15 or whatever it is.

    If I was to do it again I'd probably get it raw, clean up the original welds, make the mods and then paint it.

    Jim

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    I opted for no powder coating thinking I could save a few bucks. Instead, I first tried applying POR 15 to a cleaned up frame but it would not adhere properly. I then had the frame sandblasted completely and then applied POR 15 and a top coat of Eastwood chassis gloss black. It all turned out very well and I believe it is as durable as powder coat, if not quite as good looking. Several times since I have dinged the frame and the POR 15 did not chip off at all. The down side was that it was very time consuming to do all of this and it turned out to be quite a bit more expensive than powder coating. I would not recommend it.
    MKIV #8740, Canadian base kit, Picked up Dec. 2015, ‘98 Cobra 4.6 l DOHC, T45 transmission, old style IRS, Art Cuesta dieted harness/Ron Francis chassis harness, go-cart July 2018.

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    My chassis is powder coated in gloss black, not the new satin finish. It's very easy to touch up with POR-15 if it gets chipped or scratched. I suspect, as Steve pointed out, that there is a product that can closely match the new satin black PC. Unless you plan significant mods to the chassis that require welding, I think getting the PC from FFR is the way to go.

    Dave
    Last edited by Papa; 12-05-2019 at 08:24 AM.
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    I took the bare frame because I wanted to be able to rearrange (cut / weld / etc) as necessary without cleaning off powder coat (PITA).

    In less than 3 months I could not stand seeing every hand print I put on the frame rust (light surface rust).

    Opted for rattle can black primer - which I've been very satisfied with - 10 years in.

    But it's literally an 8-10 hour job.

    1- Roll frame dolly into back yard.
    2- Roll frame up on it's side + wipe down with naptha.
    3- Spray everything you can get to.
    4- Roll frame on other side, wipe down with naptha, spray everything you can get to.
    5- Repeat as necessary until satisfied.

    Expect 8-12 hours, half gallon naptha + bags o' rags, 15-20 rattle cans of primer to get it "well covered".


    Actual "paint" on top of primer would require more extensive work.

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    I chose the bare frame option knowing I was going to change a lot of little things and add others. I was able to take my time and clean all the weld splatter off and smooth/knock down some of the welds that were preventing panels from sitting squarely as well. When the mods were done, the car and all the aluminum went to the powder coater. My first car, a Mk 3.1, must have been the only one to have a bad powder coat. It was literally flaking off the bottom of the round tubes near the rear end. Wire brush and gloss black paint made it look like new. I paid $700 to have the frame and panels blasted and coated. Powder was additional, but not too bad. I also got to choose my own color.

    Scott
    Built FFR9457. 351 Windsor, TKO600, 3.73. Fitech EFI. Russ Thompson throttle pedal, turn signal, and trunk pan. Carbon Fiber dash with Speedhut Revolution gauges. Paint by Jeff Kleiner.

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    Thank you for sharing that experience....

    Quote Originally Posted by Joecobr View Post
    I opted for no powder coating thinking I could save a few bucks. Instead, I first tried applying POR 15 to a cleaned up frame but it would not adhere properly. I then had the frame sandblasted completely and then applied POR 15 and a top coat of Eastwood chassis gloss black. It all turned out very well and I believe it is as durable as powder coat, if not quite as good looking. Several times since I have dinged the frame and the POR 15 did not chip off at all. The down side was that it was very time consuming to do all of this and it turned out to be quite a bit more expensive than powder coating. I would not recommend it.

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    Thanks Papa....that was my concern about the powder coating. I won’t be doing mods to the frame unless it’s related to the weld points.

    You hit some points that I needed info on as well. Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa View Post
    My chassis is powder coated in gloss black, not the new satin finish. It's very easy to touch up with POR-15 if it gets chipped or scratched. I suspect, as Steve pointed out, that there is a product that can closely match the new satin black PC. Unless you plan significant mods to the chassis that require welding, I think getting the PC from FFR is the way to go.

    Dave

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    Wow....I would have never thought of allotting that much time for using a rattle can paint process. Thanks for the heads up!

    Quote Originally Posted by mike223 View Post
    I took the bare frame because I wanted to be able to rearrange (cut / weld / etc) as necessary without cleaning off powder coat (PITA).

    In less than 3 months I could not stand seeing every hand print I put on the frame rust (light surface rust).

    Opted for rattle can black primer - which I've been very satisfied with - 10 years in.

    But it's literally an 8-10 hour job.

    1- Roll frame dolly into back yard.
    2- Roll frame up on it's side + wipe down with naptha.
    3- Spray everything you can get to.
    4- Roll frame on other side, wipe down with naptha, spray everything you can get to.
    5- Repeat as necessary until satisfied.

    Expect 8-12 hours, half gallon naptha + bags o' rags, 15-20 rattle cans of primer to get it "well covered".


    Actual "paint" on top of primer would require more extensive work.

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    Interesting. Thanks!


    Quote Originally Posted by Sdonnel View Post
    I chose the bare frame option knowing I was going to change a lot of little things and add others. I was able to take my time and clean all the weld splatter off and smooth/knock down some of the welds that were preventing panels from sitting squarely as well. When the mods were done, the car and all the aluminum went to the powder coater. My first car, a Mk 3.1, must have been the only one to have a bad powder coat. It was literally flaking off the bottom of the round tubes near the rear end. Wire brush and gloss black paint made it look like new. I paid $700 to have the frame and panels blasted and coated. Powder was additional, but not too bad. I also got to choose my own color.

    Scott

  36. #26
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    This might be more expensive than powder coating, but I have used this on restoring firearms and very pleased with the product and results.
    Not much of a choice for colors and after you activate the hardener the shelf life is dated.
    If you have some smaller parts that need a good durable finish and cannot get to a powder coater, this might be an option.
    https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...prod80323.aspx
    20th Anniversary Mk IV, A50XS Coyote, TKO 600, Trunk Drop Box, Trunk Battery Box, Cubby Hole, Seat Heaters, Radiator hanger and shroud.

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  38. #27

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    The unmentioned downside to not getting the FFR powder coating is you cant start building as soon as you get it home.
    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by michael everson View Post
    The unmentioned downside to not getting the FFR powder coating is you cant start building as soon as you get it home.
    Mike
    I did a lot of fitting up - but I did get tired of looking at the surface rust a lot sooner than I expected.

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  42. #29
    Senior Member rich grsc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Railroad View Post
    This might be more expensive than powder coating, but I have used this on restoring firearms and very pleased with the product and results.
    Not much of a choice for colors and after you activate the hardener the shelf life is dated.
    If you have some smaller parts that need a good durable finish and cannot get to a powder coater, this might be an option.
    https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...prod80323.aspx
    At $50 per 16oz, ya maybe 2x powder coating, plus the huge amount of labor. Yep that make perfect sense

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  44. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by rich grsc View Post
    At $50 per 16oz, ya maybe 2x powder coating, plus the huge amount of labor. Yep that make perfect sense
    I thought I put enough caveats in there, but I guess not.
    20th Anniversary Mk IV, A50XS Coyote, TKO 600, Trunk Drop Box, Trunk Battery Box, Cubby Hole, Seat Heaters, Radiator hanger and shroud.

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    Senior Member Jetfuel's Avatar
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    I will go un-coated and spray a marine or appliance 2K epoxy primer and the color of my choosing....rattle can is not an option for protection for the long run...

    Jet...my 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Railroad View Post
    This might be more expensive than powder coating, but I have used this on restoring firearms and very pleased with the product and results.
    Not much of a choice for colors and after you activate the hardener the shelf life is dated.
    If you have some smaller parts that need a good durable finish and cannot get to a powder coater, this might be an option.
    https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...prod80323.aspx
    Cerakote also has some very impressive air cure ceramic coatings and in a lot of colors. I'm considering one of their products for my factory exhaust pipes. They claim 1800 deg. F with an air cure product.
    FFR MKIV ordered 12 July 2019. IRS, Wilwood Brakes, 18" Wheels w/MT tires, power steering, EFI, Heat. 347 Dart w/TKO-600 by Mike Forte, Holley FI, MSD coil and CD box. All new, no donor build.

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    Oooooh.....I didn’t know this material could be used for these applications. Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by RBachman View Post
    Cerakote also has some very impressive air cure ceramic coatings and in a lot of colors. I'm considering one of their products for my factory exhaust pipes. They claim 1800 deg. F with an air cure product.

  50. #34
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    Well I have a very sad tale to tell. I built my own custom steel tube frame around 2008. When it was all done I wiped it down with solvent and brushed it with POR15. The stuff is really tough. I then proceeded to use large ABS sheet to skin the bottom. I used the chrome-plated truss head screws from Home Depot. When the car was done it became my daily driver. I was living in NJ and they are quick to salt the roads in the winter. By 2017 one of the rear frame members actually separated in the middle, completely rusted through. I considered trying to repair it, but upon closer inspection I found that The entire lower part of the frame had badly rusted. Looks like wherever I put screws into it on the bottom just served as starting points for rust. The screws into the frame seemed to be the weak points. I sold the car for scrap this past March. One of the hardest things I ever had to do.

    So now I'm planning an 818 build. My plan is to get the frame in bare steel, make all my chassis mods and weld on any new brackets. Once I have a "finished" chassis, the plan is to send it out to a local shop who will sand blast it to get a good surface finish and then powder coat it. It'll wind up costing me more than getting it coated from Factory 5, but I should not have to worry about "touching up" the powder coat wherever I wind up welding. I'm still wrestling with what to do about all the panel and body fasteners. I've been thinking about maybe using galvanized screws wherever I have to drill into the chassis. From what I understand, the zinc will prevent any rust where the screws contact bare steel. I'm also worried about the "sealed" insides of the frame tubing. Will they really stay sealed? Once I start drilling holes in them I'm thinking water will find it's way in, so I'm wondering how to prevent rust from the inside out. Any suggestions? Comments?

  51. #35
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    20th Anniversary Mk IV, A50XS Coyote, TKO 600, Trunk Drop Box, Trunk Battery Box, Cubby Hole, Seat Heaters, Radiator hanger and shroud.

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  53. #36
    Senior Member AC Bill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Railroad View Post
    I thought I put enough caveats in there, but I guess not.
    Don't mind Rich, he's snarky with everyone..

  54. #37
    Senior Member rich grsc's Avatar
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    It's a nasty unappreciated job, but someone's got to do it.
    Mrk III, 331 stroker, Borla stack injection, T5, 3:55 IRS, Power steering and brakes. Kleiner body & paint

  55. #38
    Member 67 Car Guy's Avatar
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    The Eastwood stuff may be the only solution. And it does have Zinc in it, which should help a lot. I used the exhaust version of it when I did my 67 Mustang exhaust system. The part I hate is that i'll be taking a "sealed" frame section and drilling maybe a 1/4 inch hole in it to snake the tube left and right, with no good way to inspect it (without drilling an even bigger hole). Some of the 818 frame sections are pretty small. I agree Rich, it's a nasty job that no one else would ever appreciate. I have a tendency to obsess over things like this.

  56. #39
    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
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    I've built several tube chassis cars and painted most with automotive paint. I've also had them powder coated. The best paint I've found that holds up to road hazards is the Eastwood chassis paint. But powder coat is more durable than any paint I've found yet.


    But here's the biggest issue for me. Painting a tube chassis is a PITA like you can't imagine until you try it. Trying to get even coverage is difficult and if you start on the inner tubes you will get over-spray on them when you spray the outer tubes and ruin the gloss finish. If you start on the outer tubes you will lean on the fresh paint on the outer tubes when you try t reach across to paint the inner tubes. And you will get over-spray on the outer tubes anyway. Most of your paint will end up on the shop floor so you must buy more paint than what you expect you need. And I use a chassis rotisserie, if trying to paint a chassis without one you are going to struggle 10 times more.

    So from my experience, powder coating is the best, easiest, and lest expensive way to coat a chassis.
    Dart Little M 406" SBC 800 HP N/A & 1,100 HP on nitrous, 2-spd Powerglide with trans brake, 6,000 RPM stall converter, narrowed Moser 88 3.90:1 spool with 35-spline gun-drilled axles & Torino bearings, custom parallel four-link, custom tube chassis & roll cage NHRA certified for 8.5-sec (only two FFR Hot Rods have this cert).

    33 Hot Rod Super Pro Drag Racer Build: 33 HR NHRA Cert Roll Cage Build

  57. #40
    Member 67 Car Guy's Avatar
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    Hi Naz;

    I agree. I'm planning to powder coat the outside of my frame. I'm getting it bare from FF, going to do all my mods and weld my brackets, and then bring it to a local shop for media blasting and powder coat.

    John

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