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Thread: Is a basically stock 302 too little motor? Subsequent build: ITS ALIVE SEE VIDEO

  1. #1
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    Is a basically stock 302 too little motor? Subsequent build: ITS ALIVE SEE VIDEO

    Is a basically stock 302 too little motor for the 33?

    Looking for an option that would be economical and easy to drive for many (s)miles and (s)miles down the road.

    Narly1

  2. #2

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Quote Originally Posted by narly1 View Post
    Is a basically stock 302 too little motor for the 33?

    Looking for an option that would be economical and easy to drive for many (s)miles and (s)miles down the road.

    Narly1
    Narly,

    Even if you are only making around 220 HP, your HP to weight ratio will be 1-10.
    That was better my my old C4 Corvette that I owned from 1995-2018.
    That car ran low 13's and high 12's depending on the weather.
    Shown below is my Beloved C-4 as proof of ownership

    https://youtu.be/svZX2BMSDEs

    You Can Always Upgrade Later!

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    Thanks GoDadGo for confirming what I was thinking.

    It's a light car and for my purposes I don't want a squirrely, tire smoking, donutting at-the-slightest-tap-of-the pedal, monster.
    Last edited by narly1; 12-04-2019 at 03:21 PM.

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    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    (1) Yes, a mostly stock 302 would still give very lively performance, (2) "squirrely, tire smoking, donutting at-the-slightest-tap-of-the pedal, monster" with more than a mostly stock 302? No. Maybe if you got way up into the ridiculous HP ranges. But the 350-400-450 that many cite as the sweet spot for these is what I have experience with. Properly set up and with some common sense with your right foot, it's not like that at all.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
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    My 1st FFR was a 33 with a stock 5.0 out of a 93 Mustang. Car was fast, fun and great to drive. Even had a 3:08 rear axle .

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    Quote Originally Posted by wallace18 View Post
    My 1st FFR was a 33 with a stock 5.0 out of a 93 Mustang. Car was fast, fun and great to drive. Even had a 3:08 rear axle .
    I have built in the neighborhood of 50 FFR cars, My own personal car, which was the first one I built is a Stock 302 , The car has 45,000 miles on it.

    We have had tons of fun in that little car.

    I do love Coyote's. But my car is still an old pushrod 302,..... there was no coyote when I built it in 2006.

    The little 302 is a perfectly fine choice.
    FFinisher/AKA RE63

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    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
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    It's an unalienable right: life, liberty, and the pursuit of horsepower. Get as much as you can afford and use your right foot and common sense to modulate it. Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. Would Carroll use a stock 302 or would he go for some heat?
    Dart Little M 406" SBC 800 HP N/A & 1,100 HP on nitrous, 2-spd Powerglide with trans brake, 6,000 RPM stall converter, narrowed Moser 88 3.90:1 spool with 35-spline gun-drilled axles & Torino bearings, custom parallel four-link, custom tube chassis & roll cage NHRA certified for 8.5-sec (only two FFR Hot Rods have this cert).

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    Quote Originally Posted by NAZ View Post
    It's an unalienable right: life, liberty, and the pursuit of horsepower. Get as much as you can afford and use your right foot and common sense to modulate it. Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. Would Carroll use a stock 302 or would he go for some heat?
    LOL. Another good reason to keep the engine hoist around after the build is done.

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    Member Swamplife2's Avatar
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    The 5.0( original) is the definitive hot rodders engine. Good output easy to work and modify, not heavy. But I enjoy living in the past
    1414K
    Less is Less

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    Member Swamplife2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swamplife2 View Post
    The 5.0( original) is the definitive hot rodders engine. Good output easy to work and modify, not heavy. But I enjoy living in the past
    Stone cold reliable too
    1414K
    Less is Less

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    Quote Originally Posted by NAZ View Post
    It's an unalienable right: life, liberty, and the pursuit of horsepower. Get as much as you can afford and use your right foot and common sense to modulate it. Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. Would Carroll use a stock 302 or would he go for some heat?

    Its a lot more fun to drive a car with a smaller motor hard, than a with a huge motor soft.



    Carroll was building race cars , not street cars.
    FFinisher/AKA RE63

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    Senior Member AJT '33's Avatar
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    Mine is a 5L coyote out of a 2013 F150 (paid $2300 CDN) which I cleaned up and painted, initial HP was 320 with just an initial tune before we place it on the Dyno (my tuner says he can easily get it to 360 but suggests I drive it as is for now). Scary strong and will need to hold back my foot from overdoing it!!
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  22. #13
    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
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    Everyone has their own idea of fun. Everyone has their own idea of how much power they need to make their car fun to drive. I've had fun with a 36HP stock VW Bug. But for me, HP=Fun so the more the better. My car was a blast to drive when it had 550HP. It now has 800HP and is even more fun to drive. And that extra power came in the same size package so no modifications to the car were necessary.

    IMO, if all you do is smoke the tires you need more traction not less power. Look at the rear of the car for the problem not under the hood. My 800HP can easily be controlled by the skinny pedal on the right. And when I floor it there is no drama, no smoking tires, no fishtailing -- just pure plant you in the seat acceleration. So from my perspective, there is no such thing as too much power -- just not enough traction.
    Dart Little M 406" SBC 800 HP N/A & 1,100 HP on nitrous, 2-spd Powerglide with trans brake, 6,000 RPM stall converter, narrowed Moser 88 3.90:1 spool with 35-spline gun-drilled axles & Torino bearings, custom parallel four-link, custom tube chassis & roll cage NHRA certified for 8.5-sec (only two FFR Hot Rods have this cert).

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  23. #14

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    Finished this car earlier this years for a customer. I had forgotten how much fun one of these really are/can be with a little pushrod 5.0. While not the most expensive build we've done, it has to be one of my favorites.

    20190311_120319 by i.e.427, on Flickr

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    I go with Naz, more HP=more FUN. But you need a brain!

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    Start out with the 225 HP and see how you like it. Less chance of you messing up like you can with lots of HP.

    I'm almost on the road with an '89 302, that will end up with about 350 HP. Part of me wishes I'd stayed with the 225 HP (cost goes up, dependability goes down). Like someone said, it's more fun to push a 225 HP roadster than tenderly driving one with lots of HP. Those with lots of HP that are advising you to go with the high HP may well be more experienced with this car and have learned how to handle high HP on the street. Go with the 225 HP and I think you'll have more fun and also knowing that it's more dependable will help with the enjoyment.

    George

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    There's no such thing as too much power, only not enough control.

    My engine will make 600+hp. But only when I want it to. And that's the real key - only when I want it to. I have complete control, it does what I want it to do, when I want it to. When I want to hammer it and get every last pony to the street, I can. I can also cruise along at 75 mph and get 25mpg.

    It's not about power, it's about control. And - IMO - you should strive for as much of each as possible.
    .boB "Iron Man"
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    BDR 1642: Coyote, 6 Speed Auto, Edelbrock Supercharger
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  29. #18
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    I agree with Bob, Naz and others. Too much - huh? Almost inconceivable. It's the thin connection between your brain and the skinny pedal that will determine how much trouble you get into.

    Adding power usually costs more than buying it the first time. But, buy what YOU want. Problem is that without experience you may not (probably won't) know what's right for you.

    If you want to add control during the learning phase add a throttle limiting system, i.e. control wide open throttle; training wheels are not cheating. If the throttle doesn't open all the way you won't get full torque, this is tire spin, all other things being equal. Then learn how to ease into it, the throttle is not an on/off switch. With experience additional throttle opening can be added until wide open is attained. Restricting RPM only holds back the horsepower. For most of the street motors installed in these cars full torque is generally available in the 2,500 - 3,500 rpm range, look at the dyno charts. If you go to wide open throttle you'll make full torque and the chances are good for some tire spin and/or some loss of control, this is determined by experience and car set-up.

    Welcome to Sunday morning. Hammer down - cautiously.

    Jim

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    I was thinking the same thing, what is the sweet spot. I am interested in the 35 truck but I understand the chassis/frame is the same, so the weight and handling should be somewhat equal as well. I'm looking at the 350-410HP blueprint engines and figure most of the HP/torque are going to be at +5k RPM which I can just shift earlier (manual trans) and keep my foot pressure light. I've never had a hotrod but seriously considering giving it a go in my third garage spot that currently has my riding mower parked in it. LOL

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    Senior Member TBull's Avatar
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    I drove my old MKII for 10 years with the last years at 450 RWHP. It was fun and it is amazing what you get used to. I liked the 9:1 compression with the supercharger. I could cruise with it and get around 22-23 mpg or blow away most of the competition if I wanted. I think everyone is different and you should build what you are comfortablt with. I tell every new cobra owner to treat the car with a health respect and get use to it gradually or by increments. My new MK IV will have 302 based engine as well. Multi-port, Fuel Injected, Supercharged 347 Big Bore. I intend to do the exact same thing to it as I told everyone else, I'll get used to applying that power gradually and seeing how she responds. Best of luck to you and enjoy the ride. It's a blast. I miss my old car every day.
    FFR #4402 MKII Supercharged 308 445 RWHP Sterling Grey W/ Black Sapphire Stripes, Purchase 8/22/2008 Sold 12/04/2018
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    Senior Member dpariso's Avatar
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    I have a 4.6L (about 300hp) and wish I had more. What I mean is not off the line more but more getty-up when rolling about 35-40mph. If I ever do an engine swap or sell the Cobra... I'd get 400hp
    BCF_7813.jpg

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  37. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpariso View Post
    I have a 4.6L (about 300hp) and wish I had more. What I mean is not off the line more but more getty-up when rolling about 35-40mph. If I ever do an engine swap or sell the Cobra... I'd get 400hp
    BCF_7813.jpg
    Good looking engine. Sounds like you might need more rear gear?
    20th Anniversary Mk IV, A50XS Coyote, TKO 600, Trunk Drop Box, Trunk Battery Box, Cubby Hole, Seat Heaters, Radiator hanger and shroud.

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    Senior Member dpariso's Avatar
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    I have Tru-Trac Detroit Locker 3.55 gears Solid Axle. Off the line... its quick (if I get traction). But if Im rolling about 40ish mph and I put the hammer down... eh, its not butt-clinch fast.

  39. #24
    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
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    Yep, you could definitely use another 300HP or so.
    Dart Little M 406" SBC 800 HP N/A & 1,100 HP on nitrous, 2-spd Powerglide with trans brake, 6,000 RPM stall converter, narrowed Moser 88 3.90:1 spool with 35-spline gun-drilled axles & Torino bearings, custom parallel four-link, custom tube chassis & roll cage NHRA certified for 8.5-sec (only two FFR Hot Rods have this cert).

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  41. #25
    Senior Member JOP33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by narly1 View Post
    Is a basically stock 302 too little motor for the 33?

    Looking for an option that would be economical and easy to drive for many (s)miles and (s)miles down the road.

    Narly1
    I realize this post was from back in October, so I am a little late to the game here and also understand my frame of reference is absolutely nothing as this is my first build of any sort. When I went to the build school almost three years ago, Mark Yagelo from Roush Racing visited with us. And with me being a Newbie, his comments still ring in my ears to this day. He said (as I paraphrase), there are many people building these cars, some extremely experienced, some moderately experienced and some (like myself) not so experienced. He said very often he finds himself in a conversation with someone about putting a larger HP engine in their vehicle - Mark said the first thing I ask them to ask themself, is what about your driving or technical experiences makes you think you can handle that much horsepower in such a light car? He was quick to state that this is not an offensive statement or judgemental, but that he is just trying to understand their background with regards to driving high HP cars. He went on to say some have loads of experience and others not so much - he also said, I will never tell you to not put more HP in a car, but I will tell you that when you are driving a car and you finally hit that theoretical wall of HP that you can't handle - in most cases it doesn't end well. I think his point is that more HP is always great to have until you find that level that you can't handle.
    33' Hot Rod Coupe/Roadster (GEN 1), Fendered, Ford 302, 350hp, EFI, AOD, 4-Link, Double Adjustable Koni Coilovers, Split Rear Exhaust, Electric Power Steering, AC/Heat/Defrost, Moser 8.8"-3.55, Willwood Front/Rear Brakes, 18" x 8" Fronts/20" x 10" Rears, Ordered: 1.26.17, Arrived: 3.29.17, First Start: 7.2.18, Go Cart: 11.4.18 Paint/Body: 2.23.19, Back Home: 11.24.19, Completed: NEVER!; View More Pics @ https://starmobileone.com/

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  43. #26
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    Thank you all for your opinions and input, they're appreciated.

    Based on your posts, I'm pretty confident with my original thinking which is to go with a fairly stock 302.

    Some more on my reasons as to why:

    1. Driveability: I'm at a stage where I don't have anything to prove in terms of a big HP engine. I want something that my wife (if she could wrestle the keys out of my grip, LOL) could drive to the grocery store. Better fuel economy. Something that we can comfortably and reliably ride in together for miles and miles in our sunset years.

    2. Build and my skills aspects: For me it's going to be more about about the build than pride and accomplishment in the finished project. The latter aspects will just be the "icing on the cake" for me so to speak.

    One of the project challenges that I've set for myself will be rebuilding the engine. I've never done a car engine before, and in fact up until only a few years ago I had never done any serious internal work on internal combustion engines of any type.

    But, since then my youngest has gotten into motocross racing.

    As a result I have had to learn how to do extensive 2-stroke engine work involving repairs like complete top/bottom end rebuilds, clutch/gearbox, and carburetor rebuilding/tuning. Also included in this journey there's been a healthy dose of troubleshooting experience gained, and some good lessons learned due to mistakes made.

    So going into the engine rebuild I'm feeling confident with my skills and approach to engine work which is being organized, working carefully, cleanly and methodically, and following instructions to the letter.

    But, I am also tempering my confidence with the fact this be a new first for me, which is why the 302. My research tells me this has the right combination of simplicity, reliability, availability and cost that I'm looking for.

    On the subject of cost, yes I could just go and buy a crate engine but I'm willing to pay a bit more for the challenge /experience of doing it myself.

    So a bit on the donor car I'm looking at:

    It's a 1993 Cougar XR-7, with the HO engine. It has about 180K miles on it but has never been rebuilt. It is running good and is not burning any oil between changes. My thinking is that in addition to all of the usual renewal parts (water/oil pump, timing chain, gaskets, etc.) I might get away with only new crank/rod cam bearings. Being that it's an unmolested block and that it's not burning oil, I figure that any bore work will be minimal, if required at all and at least there will be enough meat in the block if that's necessary. Oversize pistons are relatively easy and cheap to find up here in Canada either new or lightly used.

    From what I've read the Cougar version of the HO uses a milder cam than the Mustang so between that and the expected wear it will likely be replaced as well.

    Valve and head wise I figure I will cross that bridge when I come to it....depending on condition just run them as-is if they are good, or if not switch them out for something that breathes a bit better (with the HP upgrade that some of you guys were talking about) at the same time.

    Similarly the intake/EFI components I am thinking of running as-is to begin with. Part of me would like to go with one of the aftermarket intake/EFI kits right from the start and have that more of an old-timey look.

    Another part of the heads/intake/EFI aspect is that these are things I could always do later as finances allow and increased HP "needs" "dictate" (LOL).

    Tinkering, fixing, making is in my DNA so having these happen after the project is done would keep these itchy fingers busy.

    Oh, finally I should probably add that I don't have the kit yet. I'm pre-retirement by a few years. The driveline work is the start and a way of giving myself something to keep inspired/motivated/busy on until the build becomes my new "full time" job. This would be a great point for any comments re taking the finished engine somewhere to have it run-up and broken-in/dyno'd to make sure there are no surprises for when it's needed.

    Looking forward to all of your thoughts and comments.
    Last edited by narly1; 12-19-2019 at 10:07 PM.

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  45. #27
    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
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    For those that have never rebuilt any engine before I always recommend a crate engine. In fact, a crate engine can be had for less than I can build one myself and I have all the expensive tools and precision measuring equipment and years of experience building engines. And a crate engine comes with a warranty.

    You have some experience rebuilding a single-cylinder 2-stroke engine which is certainly a start but I still suspect you still don't know what you don't know when it comes to properly assembling an automotive engine.

    We all started somewhere -- for me it was long long ago and I jumped head-first into the unknown with lot's of unfounded confidence. Somehow I managed to rebuild several engines that actually ran good before I received formal training from Ford on the subject and knew what I was doing. So if you really want the experience and are willing to pay more and take a chance then do it right. Search the internet and find books on how to rebuild a 302 SBF specifically and how to properly assemble an automotive engine in general (these will usually refer to "blueprinting an engine"). Then purchase the precision measuring instruments and specialty engine building tools that will help you do it right (here's a hint: if you plan to use Plastigage to check you're bearing clearances you're not doing it right). Books on how to build an engine will cover the tools and measuring instruments required. If you want the experience and learn how to do it right it will be an expensive education. If you just throw an engine together and hope for the best, good luck -- it sometimes works out and other times it doesn't. When it doesn't it becomes an expensive hard-knocks lesson.

    But most of all, have fun. It's your car, build it your way.
    Dart Little M 406" SBC 800 HP N/A & 1,100 HP on nitrous, 2-spd Powerglide with trans brake, 6,000 RPM stall converter, narrowed Moser 88 3.90:1 spool with 35-spline gun-drilled axles & Torino bearings, custom parallel four-link, custom tube chassis & roll cage NHRA certified for 8.5-sec (only two FFR Hot Rods have this cert).

    33 Hot Rod Super Pro Drag Racer Build: 33 HR NHRA Cert Roll Cage Build

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  47. #28
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    I suspect that the difference between crate engines and rebuilding is a little narrower up here in Canada. Certainly the landed cost into Canada for a US engine makes the prospect 30% more attractive, LOL.

    Regarding doing my research first, I've already started pouring over the Reid and Monroe books and watching/reading as much as I can find on-line.

    I'm not too proud to ask for advice, if you have any special tips or tricks that you've learned over the years I'm all ears.

    Also any advice on what specialty tools I will need, and what quality they need to be? This is what I have compiled so far:

    - Harmonic balancer puller (cheap one)
    - torque wrench (good one)
    - piston ring compressor (cheap one)
    - cam degree wheel
    - bore gauge (not sure if I need one or not as I will be working with my local engine m/c shop as to whether a re-bore is needed)
    - vernier for measuring piston dia. (I have a cheap one but think I should be buying a good one, ideally with a calibration cert.)

    Thanks again,

    Narly1

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  49. #29

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    I have built many Windsor engines over the last couple decades. I do not own a bore gauge or a quality Vernier caliper set. Never needed them.

    I mostly use an inexpensive adjustable ring compressor. But I also own a fixed compressor for a specific bore. I find that much easier to use.

    '93 cast iron cylinder heads are crap. Don't even bother to try and mod them or rebuild them. They do make wonderful boat anchors.

    IMO, Dart aluminum Pro-1 heads are the best bang for the buck on today's market. It's a quality product at a reasonable price. Other heads make more power, but you'll pay more for them and may not get as high a quality.

    The stock engine has a compression ratio of about 8.8. That's not terrible. But if you install a bigger cam, it might drop your dynamic compression ratio more than you'de like. Be sure and do the math before ordering heads. Most aftermarket heads are available with different size combustion chambers.
    .boB "Iron Man"
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  51. #30
    Consummate Learner TxMike64's Avatar
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    My advice would be to have the machine shop zero-deck the block and do the rotating assembly for you. There's still plenty of other assembly work for you to do that won't be as critical to engine life. This is the way I've always done it.

    If the cost isn't so big an issue I would ditch the stock EFI and intake manifold and choose one of the many many aftermarket EFI systems. They'll be much easier to get running and tune, as well as being much easier to install in a car like this.
    -- Mike -- TxMike64 -- @TxMGarage
    Gen1.5 Hot Rod '33 #1094 (Stage 1) - 302/AOD '15 IRS - Quad Built - Build Thread

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  53. #31
    Consummate Learner TxMike64's Avatar
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    My advice would be to have the machine shop zero-deck the block and do the rotating assembly for you. There's still plenty of other assembly work for you to do that won't be as critical to engine life. This is the way I've always done it.

    If the cost isn't so big an issue I would ditch the stock EFI and intake manifold and choose one of the many many aftermarket EFI systems. They'll be much easier to get running and tune, as well as being much easier to install in a car like this.
    -- Mike -- TxMike64 -- @TxMGarage
    Gen1.5 Hot Rod '33 #1094 (Stage 1) - 302/AOD '15 IRS - Quad Built - Build Thread

  54. #32
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    So this happened on Christmas Eve Day. An early present to myself. 88 MY 5l Engine and AOD transmission with 50K miles (80,000 Km) for $450 CAD.

    20191226_100059[1].jpg20191226_100137[1].jpg
    Last edited by narly1; 12-29-2019 at 10:21 AM.

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  56. #33
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    Got this as a "Christmas present" from my family (it was on sale cheap at $25 CAD at Princess Auto, the Canadian version of Harbour Freight):

    20191229_095016[1].jpg
    Last edited by narly1; 12-29-2019 at 10:22 AM.

  57. #34
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    Snagged this on Kijiji for $50 CAD:

    20191229_094933[1].jpg


    and from the same guy this for $100 CAD:

    20191229_094952[1].jpg

  58. #35
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    It's been mild here in southern Ontario the past few days. So far I have separated the transmission & TC from the engine. Degreased and washed and loaded back into the pick-up for delivery to my local transmission shop guy. In the past he has done good work on our daily drivers so I expect that he will be fair and honest with me regarding this project.

  59. #36
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    I heard back from my transmission guy today. Best description is that it is in good, but old condition. So all new seals and while he's in there a rebuild is in the cards. He also suggests adding a shift kit. I was surprised to learn from him that shorter,crisper cause less band wear than laggy, stock shifts. Also upgrading to the more robust AODE overdrive band. He also notes that the torque converter is showing signs of bulging and recommends a new one. Thinking I will wait to pull the trigger on that until the engine is done, idea being that at least I will have then opportunity to pick what is best based on how it turns out.

  60. #37
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    Baby steps. If you're going to do good work a clean workspace is a must. New stainless steel top and a fresh coat of gray paint on my old but sturdy wooden work bench.

    20200115_170042.jpg

  61. #38
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    Finally got the 302 up on the stand and stripped it down to the bare bones over the last couple of days

    20200411_213927[1].jpg

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  63. #39
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    Had the block up on the bench tonight for some measurements.
    Bore out of round and tapers all measure less than .001". Factory specs are .005" and .010" respectively.

    Factory bore dia spec is 4.0004 - 4.0048". Measured 4.0008 - 4.0028 so if my bore gauge is any where near accurate all they should need is a light ball hone.

    20200412_224917[1].jpg20200412_224849[2].jpg

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  65. #40
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    Checking connecting rods at the big end. Used my $20 vernier to set the bore gauge to 2.2395" so not hugely confident in the accuracy of my diameter measurements.

    That being said they are all reading fairly consistent (about .0015" smaller than spec) so that's a good thing. My bore out of round or ovality measurements I trust as they are relative. Only seeing .0002-.0005" with the bearings out.

    Bearings in is another story. Where the two halves meet, and just before the bore gauge anvils fall into the "crack", the surfaces are quite high, in the order of .0045 to .005". I guess this is the result of the bearing material being "squished" outward (towards the center of the bore) when the rod bolts are torqued down.

    20200415_004558[1].jpg

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