Is a basically stock 302 too little motor? Subsequent build: ITS ALIVE SEE VIDEO

[cv2065]

It's an unalienable right: life, liberty, and the pursuit of horsepower. Get as much as you can afford and use your right foot and common sense to modulate it. Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. Would Carroll use a stock 302 or would he go for some heat?

Right!!

[narly1]

It's taken a bunch of wheeling and dealing and letting go of un-needed/unused things and projects that I'll never get to but managed to scrape together enough surplus funds to pull the trigger on these over the weekend:

afr.jpg

[TBull]

Very Nice. I love my AFR's. What did you get? 185 or 195?

[narly1]

Very Nice. I love my AFR's. What did you get? 185 or 195?

Neither. 165's. This is a very mild build, but should still yield out about 350 hp.

[narly1]

So while I'm waiting for the heads to turn up I'd like to form a plan as far as pre-install checks of them go.

Here's what I've come up with so far:

1. Close visual inspection out of the box for any damage. Check mounting surface flatness using a straightedge with a light behind it to see if there is any light peeking through indicating an obvious low spot. Chase and clean threaded holes. Deburr edges if/as necessary.
2. Remove valve springs one by one and check valve stem to guide clearance for smooth but not tight (grabby) or sloppy fit. Measure and record spring installed heights. Reinstall.
3. Flip heads upside down (chambers up). Fill combustion chambers with rubbing alcohol and check for leakage by blowing air into int/exh ports, watching for bubbles, to confirm that the valve/seat sealing is good.
4. Using recorded spring installed heights do coil bind calculations as per https://help.summitracing.com/app/an...-hJHQE1nCdo9IM.
5. Check that rocker studs are torqued to their correct values.
6. Thorough wash/clean/dry, ready for install.

[33fromSD]

So while I'm waiting for the heads to turn up I'd like to form a plan as far as pre-install checks of them go.

Here's what I've come up with so far:

1. Close visual inspection out of the box for any damage. Check mounting surface flatness using a straightedge with a light behind it to see if there is any light peeking through indicating an obvious low spot.
2. Remove valve springs one by one and check valve stem to guide clearance for smooth but not tight (grabby) or sloppy fit. Measure and record spring installed heights. Reinstall.
3. Flip heads upside down (chambers up) Fill combustion chambers with rubbing alcohol and check for leakage over time. (20 minutes) to confirm that valve/seat sealing is good.
4. Using recorded spring installed heights do coil bind calculations as per https://help.summitracing.com/app/an...-hJHQE1nCdo9IM.
5. Check that rocker studs are torqued to their correct values.
6. Thorough wash/clean/dry, ready for install.

Boy, I don't know, if I'm paying that much for aluminum heads I would sure hope all this is already done by the manufacturer..

[narly1]

Boy, I don't know, if I'm paying that much for aluminum heads I would sure hope all this is already done by the manufacturer..

That perspective has crossed my mind too.

[TxMike64]

Boy, I don't know, if I'm paying that much for aluminum heads I would sure hope all this is already done by the manufacturer..

That perspective has crossed my mind too.

Yeah.... but some of us like the process. And there's nothing like doing it yourself for peace of mind, even if it's just "for the seeing".

I've been on a somewhat similar path refreshing a 5.0 like narly1 and have been slowly working on it for almost a year now. I'm in no big hurry and I'm enjoying it!
I mean if the end product was the goal why would we be building a car? If we just wanted the car it'd be better to just go buy one...

[33fromSD]

Yeah.... but some of us like the process. And there's nothing like doing it yourself for peace of mind, even if it's just "for the seeing".

I've been on a somewhat similar path refreshing a 5.0 like narly1 and have been slowly working on it for almost a year now. I'm in no big hurry and I'm enjoying it!
I mean if the end product was the goal why would we be building a car? If we just wanted the car it'd be better to just go buy one...

Don't get wrong, I love seeing how stuff goes together too and the process involved of getting there, but when it comes to things like aluminum heads with tolerances / clearances, my old school intuition kicks in and it falls into the category of if it ain't broke don't fix it, and then my conscious kicks in (a miniature version of my wife sitting on my shoulder) and tells me I paid a s**t load of money for them to be professionally built, so I don't want to chance me screwing something up.

I figure if it bought as an assembly, leave it alone, otherwise if I want to take it apart, why didn't I just order all the various parts and do it from scratch myself.

just me, not saying there is a right or wrong answer.

[narly1]

The AFR heads have a great reputation of being correctly manufactured and assembled right out of the box. But like many things they are mass-produced so there is always some chance of something being not right.

My perspective is with all the time and dollars I've invested so far, why not double check them if it's not too hard to do. Other than removing/measuring the springs and checking the valve "feel", all the other checks can be done with simple tools and the heads intact.

[junglejim]

The AFR heads have a great reputation of being correctly manufactured and assembled right out of the box. But like many things they are mass-produced so there is always some chance of something being not right.

My perspective is with all the time and dollars I've invested so far, why not double check them if it's not too hard to do. Other than removing/measuring the springs and checking the valve "feel", all the other checks can be done with simple tools and the heads intact.

Absolutely! One would like to think that his hard earned dollars are well spent, and AFR products are well respected for a good reason, but as the saying goes, trust but verify.
narly1, I'd say you're on the right track with your inspection procedure, as far as filling the chamber with liquid and such. You never know when something can slip by even the best quality control, and the burden is on the end user.
I bought CHI heads and being, as you are, careful (suspicious), I had them shipped unassembled, so I would have that peace of mind. I found them to be exceptional in quality, as well as the Ferrea valves and Comp Cams springs that came with them. I vacuum tested the ports with the valves unsprung and they pulled 100 percent. I marked the seats with a sharpie and spun the valves on the seats and got a nice mark on the valve faces right where i expected them to be. The installed height on EVERY valve was within 3 thousandths of where they should have been. Point is, quality products should yield quality results, and I would expect your AFR heads will be the same, but you can't replace the peace of mind that comes from seeing it for yourself. Plus you can in clear conscience recommend these products to others.

[narly1]

I'd say you're on the right track with your inspection procedure......

Thanks Jim for confirming my thinking and such.

I figure that if my checks are for the most part "non-invasive" and easy to do, why not do them? The other reason for checking that I forgot to include in my justification was the possibility of shipping damage.

And spare time is in good supply right now, LOL.

I noticed that Summit has them back in stock now so I hope my local supplier here in Canada will be getting theirs in soon as well. I can hardly wait!

Earl

[narly1]

I should also mention that I found another test for checking valve seating where you still fill the combustion chamber with fluid, but then you take an air hose and blow air up into the intake/exhaust ports and observe for leakage (air bubbles) around the valve seats.

[narly1]

I'm pleased to announce that Mrs. Narly1 started a new job on Monday so the engine build project is officially restarted. Not that it ever stopped LOL, I'm still waiting for the new heads to turn up.

In the meantime I celebrated the good news by purchasing a few other things I will need: throttle/kickdown cable bracket, Thermostat, thermostat housing/filler neck, spark plugs (2 sets) and an oil pressure sender extension. They are not scheduled to be delivered until 3rd week of March. COVID seems to be extending the lead-time on everything these days!

[HotrodMike]

Yeah.... but some of us like the process. And there's nothing like doing it yourself for peace of mind, even if it's just "for the seeing".

I've been on a somewhat similar path refreshing a 5.0 like narly1 and have been slowly working on it for almost a year now. I'm in no big hurry and I'm enjoying it!
I mean if the end product was the goal why would we be building a car? If we just wanted the car it'd be better to just go buy one...

I agree with all of you, I have been preparing my drivetrain for the arrival of my Stage 1 kit in July. This is one of those rare moments in life when both the journey and the destination are rewarding...

[narly1]

So the delivery of my heads continues to drag out, I've been told that they should be delivered to me on the 22nd.

So in the meantime I decided to order this pulley and bracket set from CVF:

CVF.jpg

As a side note I found these guy's telephone customer support to be nothing less than fantastic....they definitely earned my business because of it.

[HVACMAN]

So the delivery of my heads continues to drag out, I've been told that they should be delivered to me on the 22nd.

So in the meantime I decided to order this pulley and bracket set from CVF:

CVF.jpg

As a side note I found these guy's telephone customer support to be nothing less than fantastic....they definitely earned my business because of it.

I used them for my LS and had a compressor making noise at startup. One phone call and I had a new compressor in a couple of days. Awesome customer service.

[Brastic]

I am running 195 in my 302. Mainly because this is the vehicle that I put the most miles on. If it were only a weekend, drive fast and put away, maybe I would go lower. Since I like to put miles on the car, I want to be in closed loop.

[narly1]

Dang, with COVID lead times being what they are on things these days I thought I should look into this:

EFI2.jpg

Sure enough delivery is currently being quoted as mid to late June.

So better safe than sorry I placed my order this afternoon....

[narly1]

Any suggestions/preferences as to a fuel pump and regulator to use with the ProFlo4 EFI?

The reason I ask is that the Edelbrock-reccommended 3604 system (which seems pricey IMO) is backordered into late June.

So there's that and I'm also thinking I won't use everything supplied in the "kit" when I finally get around to installing it on the car.

So far I've been looking at Walbro pump model GSL392BX and the Earl's Performance regulator model 12848ERL (How can I resist with a name like that....looks to me like all regulators of this style are just brand-labelled clones anyways, LOL).

[narly1]

Finally!

20210324_192019[1].jpg

[narly1]

Pre-install inspection of the cylinder heads started tonight.

I checked the valve to seat (head) sealing by filling the combustion chambers one at a time with soapy water and then blowing compressed air up into the intake and exhaust ports.

Zero bubbles which is good thing.

As a side note I tried blowing some air in around the sparkplug which was only tightened in loosely by hand and sure enough some bubbles...so the technique works.

[narly1]

Checking and double checking.

Went through this once before but thought I should post it up here for posterity.

Comp specify their pn# 986-16 springs for use with their pn# 35-349-8 (XE264HR-14 grind) cam. These are 322 lbs/in springs.

The springs as supplied with my AFR1399 are their pn# 8017. These are 360 lbs/in springs. So I'm good.

I might lose a bit of bottom end torque but shouldn't have any worries about high RPM valve float....even though I'll probably never rev that high anyways.

[narly1]

Yesterday afternoon. and this morning's exercise is checking piston to valve clearance.

Disassembled a couple of the lifters I will be using, took out the springs and added washers to essentially convert them into solid lifters. I found that it took 3 flat washers/lifter to make the top piece butt tight up against the wire clip.

I then went rummaging through my collection of springs and found a nice light one (why couldn't I find 2 the same, LOL).

Getting the supplied valve springs off turned into more work than I planned. My homemade compressor ended up being useless so ended up borrowing one. Thankyou Facebook for connecting me with a local lender almost immediately.

I found that the keepers were firmly wedged in the retainers, with a block of soft wood against the valve face, a light tap on the retainer face got them free.

So installed a couple of the new rockers that I bought back at Christmas time along with the stock pushrods that I saved from when I tore the engine down.

I then loaded the head onto the block and put a few bolts in (just slightly more than hand tight, not torqued) to hold it down.

Set everything at zero lash and used a dial indicator to find the position where the valve lift was the highest and thus the valves widest open. Set the indicator to read zero at this point. From there I pushed the rocker down by hand until the valves bottomed out in the reliefs in the piston top.

Measured values were .076" exhaust and and .075" intake. Note that these were taken without a head gasket installed. The AFR recommended Fel-pro 10111 has a compressed thickness of .041" so the clearances will be more like .117" and .116" respectively.

Next step is to re-install the actual springs and re-check the clearances using the Play-dough method.

20210328_090952[1].jpg

[narly1]

Using the Play-dough method I measured clearances of .131" and .116" So I think I'm good!

[narly1]

So now we wait for a new adjustable pushrod to arrive so I can check what length I need.

Turns out the one I have is far too long for the job.

[johnnybgoode]

Nice! What cam are you running with the AFR 165's? Scott (I'm in Ottawa BTW)

[narly1]

Comp XE264HR-14. Nothing crazy. This is my first car engine build. Ever.

[cv2065]

Just watch for the little things. My second build was a Chevy 383. Took my time building it and performed all of the clearances myself. Put it on the run stand, fired up and sounded awesome. Pulled the pan and had metal shavings in it. I was like...WTH? Blew it all back apart, but this time, took the block to the machine shop to be cleaned, and told them to set all of my bearing clearances. Got it rebuilt...placed back on the stand. Fired up and sounded awesome. Pulled the oil pan and it had metal shavings in it. I was like...WTH x2!!. Took the shavings up to the machine shop. Owner says..."That ain't bearing"..."Pull your timing cover"...Got home, and pulled the cover. Sure enough, the chain was gouging the cover. Little did I know that when I was ordering parts, the timing cover thickness changed and I had the wrong one. Went all back together again and it was a champ. $800 mistake. Just the little things that sometimes you take for granted...

[narly1]

Thanks for the hint on the timing chain/cover. I know for a fact that's one issue I don't have. The 302 cam is retained by a plate so it can't move very far in or out, and there's a spec for that clearance which I checked. The timing gear that goes on the end of the cam has a proud feature to set it out from the retainer, etc., so it should never touch anything on the back side. On the front side there is tons of room for a mechanical fuel pump eccentric which I deleted.

For sure the devil is in the details, especially when you're piecing together a project with parts supplied by different manufacturers. Not all combinations play well together.

[narly1]

On the subject of determining pushrod length to match the correct rocker geometry, I'm planning on using this method:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5is9BsH5OU&t=1s

I have one question:

Previously for piston to valve clearance checking purposes I converted two of the existing hydraulic lifters into solid ones. I did this by using washers to locate the top internal moving part of the lifter (sorry not sure what it's called exactly) against the bottom of the retainer wire/clip piece.

Should I use the lifters in this condition for the geometry check/set-up or change them back to original first?

[johnnybgoode]

I've always seen it done using the sharpie method.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmzbHgVY3cI

I'd leave it the same way you were set up to check PTV clearance myself since you want to make sure the lifter is in it's fully pumped up position. Scott

[narly1]

I've always seen it done using the sharpie method.

I think where the sharpie method really helps is when you are trying to optimally "clock" the rocker in relation to the top of the valve stem.

[narly1]

OK new pushrod length checking tool arrived yesterday (no holidays for Amazon.ca I guess.).

I've decided to wait until I have the head gaskets in place before doing this next step.

I ordered a pair from my local Carquest on Thursday, they're supposed to be here on Monday.

So in the meantime I went shopping for more bits to make up my engine stand and picked up these stock headers for $50:

20210403_133148[1].jpg

[narly1]

This is the contact pattern after setting up the rocker geometry using the previously referenced method followed by the sharpie technique as a double check:

20210405_192134[1].jpg

Beginner's luck or predictable beginner results based on following expert technique to the letter? I choose the latter...

The pieces of Gorilla tape are holding an Allen key flat on top of the spring retainer in order to establish/indicate the 90 degree angle plane relative to the valve stem.

[narly1]

In the FFR spirit of finding other things to work on due to POL, I decided to install the oil pressure extension and sender, CVF pulley set, and alternator while I wait for pushrods to turn up. The pulley set and alternator exercise was more of a mock-up, but at least it's keeping my eagerness in check. Other than the one alternator bolt being 1/2" too short everything fitted and lined up perfectly.

It's starting to look more like a complete engine.

20210408_202008[1].jpg

[33fromSD]

In the FFR spirit of finding other things to work on due to POL, I decided to install the oil pressure extension and sender, CVF pulley set, and alternator while I wait for pushrods to turn up. The pulley set and alternator exercise was more of a mock-up, but at least it's keeping my eagerness in check. Other than the one alternator bolt being 1/2" too short everything fitted and lined up perfectly.

It's starting to look more like a complete engine.

20210408_202008[1].jpg

Looks good; what are you waiting on from FFR for the engine?

[narly1]

Thanks. The CVF stuff is very good for the price.

My POL is with Edelbrock/Summit, not FFR LOL, but it's the same sort of situation. The EFI won't be shipping until late June so now I'm having to look for other things to do, even if they are out of sequence, just to keep pushing forward.

COVID has affected lead times on everything it seems.

I'm trying to be optimistic by looking at these delays as project / supply chain management training for when the kit comes, LOL.

[33fromSD]

Thanks. The CVF stuff is very good for the price.

My POL is with Edelbrock/Summit, not FFR LOL, but it's the same sort of situation. The EFI won't be shipping until late June so now I'm having to look for other things to do, even if they are out of sequence, just to keep pushing forward.

COVID has affected lead times on everything it seems.

I'm trying to be optimistic by looking at these delays as project / supply chain management training for when the kit comes, LOL.

Ah...I got it, I just saw the comment about the "In the FFR Spirit" and thought it was something on the engine FFR was supplying.

Jim

[narly1]

It's my birthday next Friday and I asked for pushrods!