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Thread: Building a my Coupe of tea!

  1. #1
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    Building a my Coupe of tea!

    Hello guys!

    I have been wanting to build race-ready daily driver for quite some time now. I have looked into several kit cars and production cars, and always come back to either an SL-C, the Datsun 240z, and the Coupe. I cannot justify the cost of building an SL-C, and the Datsun requires considerable amount of work for what I have envisioned, perhaps as much as the Coupe, but without some of its advantages. So I have decided that the Coupe is the way to go for me!

    This is basically what I want to do with the Coupe. I want to put a BMW N54 engine in it, and an automatic ZF 6HP transmission. I know this engine and how to work with it. I can get a lot of power with little investment, and a good stream of replacement parts for cheap. I know this might feel sacrilegious to some of you, but I believe the spirit of the original Daytona was to show the ingenuity of people that are willing to push boundaries, and to win by doing that. Besides, what's the point of building your own car if you don't get to build it the way you want it!

    Now, I am planning on making the Coupe AWD, running ABS and DSC from a BMW with similar wheelbase and fairly close weight to a finished coupe. Also, I will be installing a a power steering system, but I am not much concerned with that.

    My biggest concerns at the moment are: 1) front suspension geometry given that the AWD system would require a different steering knuckle than the one provided by FFR, and modifications to the strut mounting points to clear the CV Axle, and 2) matching tone rings for the ABS/DSC system. I am not sure whether using Mustang outer CV joints all around would play nice with the BMW system (the tone rings on the Mustang are bigger), or whether I am going to have to find a way to mate the BMW outer joints to the rear Ford Axles (I will be using the IRS with Mustang axles, but the front axles will come from a BMW).

    Any advice on how to tackle these two issues?
    Last edited by SlugSpeed; 12-11-2019 at 03:15 AM.

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    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    I think you will need to find a way to use tone rings that match the ABS ecu. When I was working as a Lexus tech we had one model that would build rust under the ring and expand it til it cracked. So there was one tooth w/ a gap maybe .020" larger than it should be. That was enough to screw up the system.
    FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.

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    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
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    Welcome to the madness! It appears you are going to take the madness a little further then most. AWD is being attempted by one fellow builder, and there's a need for a booooooooaaaaaaaat load of modifications. So if you are willing to take that on I think the front suspension should be a crackable code.
    I'm looking forward to your build.
    PS you could also do the new coupe frame based super car.
    https://www.factoryfive.com/whats-ne...percar-update/

    Good luck

    John
    Finished the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Sniper EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

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    Straversi's Avatar
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    Welcome to the forum and by all means, go for it. If you have the resources, skills and desire, install whatever power and drivetrain you want. That is what this hobby/passion is all about. Here is a link to the all wheel drive build thread John mentioned. https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...=Striped+steel

    -Steve
    Mk IV #8901 - Complete kit, Coyote, TKO-600, IRS. Ordered 5/23/16, Delivered 7/14/16, First Start 8/13/17, First Go-Kart 10/22/17, Registered and Completed 10/18/18. Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...V-Coyote-Build Graduation Thread: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...-Roadster-8901

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    Senior Member cnutting's Avatar
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    Looking forward to this build. Typically I would fall into the purist camp, but the Gen III is more what I would call Daytona-ish. Its been upsized and tweaked, definitely more of a blank canvas design than the original.
    FFR #8833 289 FIA 3-link
    1965 289, TKO600 from Forte's Parts Connection
    Body and Paint by Mike's Auto Restoration
    Picked up 3/5/2016, First start 4/22/2017, MA legal 7/11/2018
    Build Thread http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...FIA-build-8833
    "Insanity is contagious" - Joseph Heller

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  11. #6

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    If you can pull it off, and it sounds like you can, this will be the Craziest Coupe out there.
    Welcome Aboard!

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  13. #7
    FFR Maven Logan's Avatar
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    I support your idea to make a BMW-powered AWD Coupe, and personally I think it sounds like a phenomenal idea. Buttery smooth, strikingly capable power delivery through all four tires, and modern electronics tech. Place that order with FFR already!
    Logan's Gen 3 Coupe-R Build
    Ordered 4/23/19 | Delivered 6/29/19 | First Start 8/1/20 | First Drive 9/20/20

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    Thank you CraigS! I guess I am going to have to figure out whether I should use BMW axles, build BMW/Ford hybrid axles, or just go custom. Thank you John and Steve for pointing out that thread! That is indeed an insane build and I will follow it closely! Hopefully, mine will be a little simpler given that there are versions of the ZF 6HP transmission that come prepared for a bolt-on transfer case, which also happens to be significantly smaller than the one q4stix is using.

    Thank you for your support, guys! I do want to pull the trigger right away, but I still need to do some more research on how to do the mods I am planning on doing. I don't want to start building this beast just to leave it unfinished. Does anybody know the flange size of the axle on the IRS? Also, how many splines does the IRS axle have?
    Last edited by SlugSpeed; 12-11-2019 at 04:05 PM.

  16. #9
    Senior Member q4stix's Avatar
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    SlugSpeed,
    A smaller drivetrain is certainly the way to go... believe me haha. Since I'm trying to use a Coyote / Voodoo and it's wide and high torque, everything ends up being large and the front driveshaft offset is big to clear the engine. Do you have a link or an image of what the BMW AWD setup looks like so I can get a reference?

    It looks like your question about the trigger wheels have been answered but you'll also need to make sure the Mustang IRS ratio is compatible with your front ratio or your tire diameters/circumferences will also work so you don't burn up your center diff.

    I'd suggest seeing if you can use the front BMW knuckle, hubs, trigger wheel, brakes, etc. to simplify your work there and see if you can create custom A-arms or even bolt on adapters to your knuckles to work with the Factory Five arms. The shocks will probably need moved as well as a focus on how to fit the front differential and the steering rack in nearly the same place. All issues I'm working on at the moment too even though I haven't updated my thread recently.

    Welcome and good luck as you proceed!
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

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    I absolutely love what you are doing to your coupe! And I understand the issue you are having with the prop shaft offset. I ran into a similar problem while theorizing about an AWD RMR with a BMW powerplant. Here are some pictures:

    BMW 535xiT Turbo Project-1768.jpg

    That's the N54 engine bolted to the 6HP19/21X transmission with a bolted-on transfer case. As you can see, the front differential was designed to bolt into the engine's oil pan. My plan is to remove the differential from the oil pan and move it forward into the car. Then, fabricate a small tunnel-like structure to protect the passenger side CV axle and anchor the differential to the frame:

    s-l1600 (2).jpg

    BMW 535xiT Turbo Project-1826.jpg

    In the previous picture you can see the inside of the CV shaft tunnel, and the place were the differential bolts onto the pan.

    s-l1600.jpg

    s-l1600 (1).jpg

    That's one of the ZF 6HP transmissions. If I am correct, Ford does use a variation of this transmission in some of their cars. I am sure that you can even swap valve bodies from two transmission of the same generation and, perhaps, level index, and be able to use an AT that is cheap and easy to upgrade/fix if you are into that sort of thing.

    Now, here are some pictures of the transfer case (either an AT250 or an AT350):

    inv_018677_01__59686.1531437506.jpg

    inv_018677__31184.1531437506.jpg

    I think the entire BMW powertrain might make it easier and cheaper on the entire project, so I might end up going that way. Also, spot on on the rear-end ratio. I think some BMW owners have installed the Ford IRS differential into their cars. I'll look into that. But worse case scenario, I'll either use an M differential or the donor's original one, and just do the necessary mods to hold it in place with the IRS.

    The biggest issue I have with the BMW suspension is that they use MacPherson in the front, and that might not clear the coupe's body or fit within the chassis without massive modifications. I might also use the measurements of the original knuckle and just build a custom one to hold a push rod suspension. I am not sure yet, but if you have any suggestions on this particular issue, i would love to hear it! I don't really need to use BMW knuckle. I just need a knuckle that would take the spline from the outer BMW CV joint. In the original BMW configuration, the steering rack sits right in front of the oil pan, so I might be able to get away with mounting the steering rack and the mount the differential right after it. That is, if I can figure out this steering knuckle situation without braking the bank. Maybe something like this might work:

    Double_Wishbone_Suspension.jpg
    Last edited by SlugSpeed; 12-12-2019 at 01:40 PM. Reason: Added more pictures

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    I think I might have found a possible solution for my spindle problem (and perhaps for q4stix too). So, instead of fabricating a steering knuckle, I could fabricate a metal cylinder with a welded plate on top of it to accommodate for a ball joint. And the strut could be mounted in a pushrod configuration that would only require a rod coming from the a pivot piece into the lower A-arm. This way, the CV axle might clear all the suspension components. Look at the following picture:

    20191211_223618.jpg

    New A-arms might still need to be fabricated (or maybe the FFR ones could be used). What do you guys think?
    Last edited by SlugSpeed; 12-12-2019 at 12:04 AM.

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    John, that F9R looks hot! I am wondering how much that kit would sell for. By the looks of it, it seems as it will be way over my budget (SL-C territory, maybe?). Hopefully, not. But given that I want to start the build in the by the summer of 2020, I might not have the patience to wait for this new car.
    Last edited by SlugSpeed; 12-12-2019 at 12:04 AM.

  20. #13
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    Do some googling for 'race car fabricated spindles'. Here is one I found.
    http://www.colemanracing.com/Spindle...-5--P4710.aspx
    It has a stub axle which isn't what you want but notice the black piece is just some 1/2 in (guessing) flat steel so easy to make something different. Also google for other US circle track suppliers. There are quite a few and the pricing usually is quite reasonable. What type wheel bearing does the BMW use? If it is this bolt on style
    https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/...E&gclsrc=aw.ds
    that makes fabbing a spindle very easy. You could make the black plate part with a drill press, hole saw, drill bit and a tap. Scroll down the Coleman link to see all the individual parts they sell for steering arm, ball joint mounts etc. If the BMW wheel bearing is the press in type w/ a snap ring, you would need a machine shop to turn a sleeve, w/ an internal shoulder on one end and a snap ring groove on the other. Then use a larger hole saw to drill your flat steel piece to match the OD of your bearing sleeve. Slip the sleeve into the plate and weld. Just so you know, over the years FFR has gotten more and more engineering into their suspensions so my goal would be to exactly duplicate their spindle design as far as position of ball joints, steering rod, etc. so you keep their geometry in tact. I agree using a rod in place of the coil over would probably get you room for the axle. And then mount the coil over up and inside connected via a rocker arm to that rod.
    This is another source for lots of stuff.
    https://www.speedwaymotors.com/shop/...ories~6-16-470
    I made a custom upper ball joint plate a few years ago using some 1/4 inch steel and one of these threaded sleeves. I wanted to run rear wheels on the front and needed to make the outer end of the UCA narrower so I could steer far enough. Original on the left, narrow version on the right.
    IMG_20150330_114810449 by craig stuard, on Flickr
    BTW the industry number for the front upper BJ is a K772 so there are plenty of parts to work w/ that BJ
    FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.

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    CraigS, what a fantastic contribution you have made to the discussion! I had not realized that using a modular spindle would probably be the most cost-effective and simpler option! And if I can fabricate a steel plate that matches the current geometry of the Coupe, then that would make my life significantly easier and my pocket less strained!

    BMW uses pressed-in bearings in the front for their AWD vehicles. Lucky for me, the rear bearings are the bolt-on, and BMW has a wheel hub for that bearing with the same spline count I need to fit the front CV axles. The measurements for the rear bearings are 45X80X37. For the sake of reference, this is what their bolt pattern look like:

    33-41-1-095-652-BOE.jpg

    I would just need to get the measurements from the Mustang spindles/knuckles and perhaps buy those adapter pieces in the Coleman link you posted.

    Is there any particular reason why you suggested mounting the struts/coilovers upright instead of in a somewhat horizontal position? Also, do you happen to know the degree of inclination of the upper ball joint on the front Mustang spindle?
    Last edited by SlugSpeed; 12-12-2019 at 02:39 PM. Reason: Picture added

  22. #15
    Senior Member q4stix's Avatar
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    The transmission bellhousing and engine are a ton more narrow than the Coyote and Voodoo! Wow. That will make your life a lot easier than my setup.
    Double check the height of the prop shaft / front driveshaft relative to the transmission output shaft. I know you should fit width wise but you may have to raise the rear differential height to line up if you don't want the front driveshaft to hang below the bottom of the frame.

    I'm also leaning towards a pushrod front to gain extra clearance for everything in that area. The steering angle of the wheels and tires relative to the A-arms, etc is what has me concerned on my build. If you have it mostly from the donor then it should all fit in place.
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

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  24. #16
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    SS, I must not have worded my reply very well, I was thinking of the front coilovers being horizontal. Double check w/ FFR though as I 'think' the Koni's they provide may need to be vertical. If so, there are plenty of alternatives. Re; spindles. I am referring to the FFR spindles that will come w/ your kit like these. If I were you I would want these to be supplied so you have them in hand while working to duplicate the geometry. They came out 4-5 yrs ago so there are plenty of FFRs around who might want to upgrade to these after you are finished w/ them.
    http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/1450...t-spindle-set/
    These incorporate all the latest design changes that had been made previously w/ different adapters for the Mustang parts. BTW, I am not sure who FFR currently get the UCAs from but here is a source for individual parts if you need to change anything. Scroll to pg 150 and look at the next 3-4 pages.
    https://spcalignment.com/images/stor...t_2018-web.pdf
    FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.

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    4stix, the propeller shaft on the BMW configuration is about 1 inch higher than the transmission pan. I might still need to raise the differential, but I am not too concerned with it, as the engine oil pan is a little lower than the transmission pan.

    Thanks to CraigS suggestion, I am going to fabricate custom spindles for the front to match the BMW's bolt-on bearings and hub. The issue I have to solve now is the rear suspension/drivetrain. I have to decide whether I am going to use the Ford differential or a BMW unit. It is quite possible that I am going to have to make spindles for the rear as well, but I'll do some research on the BMW forums to see what I find

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    CraigS, you are just making my life easier and easier! I really appreciate the info and links you provided! I am going to schedule a visit to the FFR factory and see the car in person, as well as to check the actual space I am going to be working with (if possible). I'll see if I can start collecting relevant data on the spindles

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    It can be done.. Bruce the owner of CSx 3170 just added aftermarket ABS by BMW. The kit was $8k and he fabricated the rings

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    Jcdata! Wow, that's is a high bill to pay for ABS. But then again, I checked prices on a Bosch standalone unit a few years back and it was about the same price. Since I would be using a matched DME+ABS/DSC combo, mine should be significantly cheaper. You can even get a used ABS/DSC unit for less than $100!

    One issue with this setup besides the spindles is finding tone rings for the Ford axles. I am under the impression that the outer CV joint for the Fords are bigger than those used by BMW on any of the potential donors I might be using (1/3/5/Z series), so fabricating tone rings that match the BMW ones, and that would fit those axles might prove way more difficult (if not impossible) than just fabricating spindles that would accommodate the BMW bearings and hubs, which is what I am inclined to do so far.

  29. #21
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    A few thoughts.
    1- Not sure this would work but, a lot of early ABS units used one rear actuator for both rear brakes. Especially on solid axle cars they figured that if one rear wheel was sliding, the other could be close behind so reduced brake effort to both. It was a less complicated system and a bit of overkill as far as preventing a spin under braking. Now that wouldn't work so well w/ the acceleration or stability control of modern systems. But it got me thinking that maybe you could put a tone ring at the diff input flange. Heck anywhere on the drive shaft. The standard FFR setup uses an adapter anyway at the diff input flange so it might be a spot to add in another one.
    http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/1594...shaft-adapter/
    Have to think this through but one ring w/ two sensors??
    2- A question I had but don't know the answer to is this. I know that there needs to be a specific number of teeth on the ring but I don't know if they need to be a certain size. IE; if the stock ring is 4 inches OD and has 100 teeth, could a ring that is 5 inches OD and has 100 larger teeth work? I 'think' it could but definitely not sure. If you can get an answer to this it will open up a lot of spots where a ring could be added on the rear half shafts.
    3- Most all current axles are the style where the ends are machined as a part of the CV joint.
    https://www.buyautoparts.com/buynow/...ic&pt_adgroup=[90-7]%20Drive%20Axle%20Rear&msclkid=4431ce0ffb681e0be9d b93f33bed4179&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_c ampaign=(ROI)%20Shopping%20-%20All%20MAPs%20-%20Year%20Specific&utm_term=4582970623739634&utm_c ontent=%5B90-7%5D%20Drive%20Axle%20Rear
    But back in the day it was very common to have 6 allen head bolts at both ends (or just one end) attaching the CV joints to the stub axle. See the left end of this one
    https://www.amazon.com/TO87628762A-f...22008599&psc=1
    This style would really lend itself to adding on a ring.
    4- You are probably aware that the center shaft of the modern axles that look like they don't come apart actually do come apart so you end up w/ a shaft w/ splines on both ends and usually some type of groove for a snap/expanding ring. That shaft can be made so the splines match pretty much anything. Point is that if you find a diff that will work and an outer spindle, wheel bearing, hub that will work, it's not hard to have an axle made that will connect the two. A friend did this on a project. He had a diff with associated axle and a spindle with associated axle. He wacked the two axles as if he were going to weld them together in the middle. He put a 4 inch piece of angle iron and welded the two axles to it. This way he had a mockup axle so he could check plunge travel etc. Took it all apart and sent his hacked axle to a shop that machined him a new one.
    Last edited by CraigS; 12-20-2019 at 08:09 AM.
    FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.

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  31. #22
    FFR Maven Logan's Avatar
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    The FFR upper control arms are sourced from SPC, which CraigS linked to a PDF of above. Fabricated spindles and knuckles are a common racecar deal. Very stout setups (usually overkill) can be made and most of the time they keep them relatively simple. Imagine your pickup points (ball joints, tie rod, hub, and brake caliper) and then fabricate a big thick plate with all the required holes for those points. They can be bought as a universal part to which you modify or add what you need, or could be designed and fabricated from scratch. I’d love to make some custom front spindles for my Coupe-R because the wheel bearing, hub, and brake handling could be dramatically improved in size/strength, but that’s a project for after I get my car on the track!

    I love all the ideas and discussion generated in this post... keep it rolling.
    Logan's Gen 3 Coupe-R Build
    Ordered 4/23/19 | Delivered 6/29/19 | First Start 8/1/20 | First Drive 9/20/20

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    CraigS, I have a few thoughts on the matter. On #2, I would say that the amount of teeth is as important as the dimensions of those teeth, at least depending on the system. The reason being that the wheel speed sensor measures the transition from high to low points and viceversa. If you increase the transition time (by extending the width of the teeth/valleys), you will be telling the ABS/DSC module that the wheels are going slower than they actually are, which will make the entire system less effective at stopping X wheel from spinning. I am thinking that the if you increase the transition time, and one wheel spins, the system would apply less force than it would at the same speed if the tone rings would be factory sized.

    Now, I could be wrong here, and the system might also be able to correct itself by watching the behavior of the tone rings while applying break pressure (like the difference a big brake kit would make in a system calibrated for smaller brakes). The initial breaking force for the spinning wheel might still be considerably less than that applied by the original system would provide, but might quickly escalate to compensate for the latency on the spinning wheel achieving the desired speed relative to that of the wheel with traction. That difference might even be imperceptible for all I know. This could be an interesting experiment to test how adaptive the BMW system is.

    Your point #2 gave me an idea that that relates to #1. The xDrive (AWD) system on the BMWs uses braking to simulate the effect of an LSD, and it needs very precise information coming from the wheels to work properly (one per wheel, and perhaps with properly sized tone rights if the system is to work properly, who knows!). I can have a company fabricate the axle center shaft that connects the inner and outer CV joints and have the inner Ford CV joint to the outer BMW joint (#4), and that would take care of the need for using the BMW rear differential. One could also create a kind of plate that would fit the center shaft on the Ford CV, and that can be used as mounting plates for the BMW tone rings (#1). Or one could also have the outer CV joint machined so it could fit the Ford center shaft, but have proper mounting space for the BMW tone rings.

    Given that I am using the BMW system, it makes more sense to me to use the BMW differentials and shafts. That way, I only have to worry about fabricating the spindles.

    Logan, I think I will do just that! I took a peek at the Coleman link CraigS provided and I might buy those spindles and use them as patterns for my build. And who know! Maybe my build and fabrications can help others achieve similar results
    Last edited by SlugSpeed; 12-26-2019 at 11:22 PM.

  34. #24
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlugSpeed View Post
    CraigS, I have a few thoughts on the matter. On #2, I would say that the amount of teeth is as important as the dimensions of those teeth, at least depending on the system. The reason being that the wheel speed sensor measures the transition from high to low points and viceversa. If you increase the transition time (by extending the width of the teeth/valleys), you will be telling the ABS/DSC module that the wheels are going slower than they actually are, which will make the entire system less effective at stopping X wheel from spinning. I am thinking that the if you increase the transition time, and one wheel spins, the system would apply less force than it would at the same speed if the tone rings would be factory sized...
    Not sure about that. While details of electronic wave forms are over my head, I have had some Lexus tech training on ABS etc. I 'think' the dimensions won't matter. A 100 tooth 3 in OD ring would have the same result as a 100 tooth 4 inch ring. Example; At some given car speed, the tire, and the axle, would make one revolution per second, so, if the rings both have 100 teeth, the sensor would see 100 pulses per second from both. The teeth would be moving faster on the larger ring because it has to pass 100 of them past the sensor in the same time as the smaller ring. But the sensor doesn't know that. It just sees 100 pulses. If I were the machinist, because I don't know any better, I would want the ratio of the width of the top edge of the tooth compared to width of the valley between the teeth to be the same on both rings
    FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.

  35. #25
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    Cast iron works good for tone rings. I’ve made a couple and they’ve always worked. I don’t think the tooth profile is as important as the separation width.

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