Why do 818 projects stall / what are the major road blocks?
I'm considering doing an 818C (or Type 65) but I've noticed there are build threads (here and elsewhere), YouTube video series, and blogs of people who have started building them, and then cease updating at some point before the car was done. I've also seen a number of partially completed builds for sale.
I assume these are "stalled" builds and not that the people have finished them rather than deciding to stop documenting their builds.
What would you figure the major project failure points are for 818 builders?
And for bonus points, if not the same as above, what was the most technically challenging (as opposed to time consuming) part for you?
I'm considering doing an 818C (or Type 65) but I've noticed there are build threads (here and elsewhere), YouTube video series, and blogs of people who have started building them, and then cease updating at some point before the car was done. I've also seen a number of partially completed builds for sale.
I assume these are "stalled" builds and not that the people have finished them rather than deciding to stop documenting their builds. What would you figure the major project failure points are for 818 builders?
And for bonus points, if not the same as above, what was the most technically challenging (as opposed to time consuming) part for you?
No one answer, for each person it's different.
Project stalling caused by Life events or priorities. Such as having kids, lose of job, new demanding job, or wife not on board.
Technical reasons: the project was more complex than expected or more time consuming than expected.
Getting bored of working on it, found a more exciting project to work on.
Some really get hung up on the electrical stuff.
The electrical was my favorite part while I want nothing to do with bodywork.
My car has been street legal and track-ready for 4 years. I still have done ZERO bodywork.
The 818 would be the least expensive but possibly the more difficult of the two. With the type 65 coupe is more of a tribute car, so the path forward is already laid out if you choose to follow. The 818 suffers from several problems, some of which indicate the need for further design attention. Because there are no other cars quite like the 818, it is a good platform for modifications. This can capture some people’s imagination and before you know it, the project has grown beyond original plans, and the budget along with it. It does make for some interesting variations.
Also, many people wait until life presents the opportunity, which may not come until their fifties or even later. This is good in some respects, since it takes a lifetime of experience to be confident about such an undertaking and acquiring the skills to pull it off. Reasons for not finishing are many.
I've seen bodywork be a major stumbling point. A lot of people bought the car under the premise of "paint free body work". The first body style had paint free panels (no seams), but fit and finish was hit or miss and did not look like the FFR cars used for photos. The new body style is definitely not paint free (seams in the front body panels that require attention). Depending on the fit of your particular kit and your degree of (dis)satisfaction, that stops a lot of people. The mechanical was easy for me. Then I hit body work, got frustrated with the quality, had kids, had other projects, and stepped back for several years until getting back into it.
I built an 818s in 18 months. I am 75 years old, so didn't figure I could take too much time changing things, before I would no longer be able. I pretty much followed the manual and got tons of great advice off the forum and fellow builders. I found the wiring to be my biggest challenge, so went with VCP harness and ECU. I had some body issues as well, and FFR sent me two new fenders already knocked down, ready to install. Cant beat their customer service. Its a fun car to drive, cornering is remarkable.
Could the 818 just be more difficult to build simply because it requires a Viable Donor Car before you start the process?
The GTM seems to fall into that same class where you have to rip a C-5 apart, then refurbish anything that is worn before starting the build.
In addition, I think the fact that parts are tougher to chase down plus you can't simply order a driveline puts the 818 in the same category as the GTM.
Remember that all other Factory Five kits are offered in a base and complete form plus drivelines for those cars are easily sourced and are not very limited.
All of the points that have been made are vailed reasons. I would like to add that one of the big things missing from the build attempts is proper plaining and follow through on the plan.
Ron
"May you be in heaven a full half hour before the Devil knows you're dead"
Imo it's 1. wiring and 2 body work. Most folks get to the go kart stage rather quickly then hit the wall. The amount of body work and "finishing touches" that were just neglected is pretty apparent. The cobras are simple especially ones that are close to time correct since they are "no frills" type. For a lot of 818s they are coming from modern day tuner cars (subarus) and trying to build something compareable to the donor is diffcult in creature comforts. (no FF option for AC, radio, and the likes). the basic plastic interior and dash leaves A LOT to be desired and just not well thought out. For a 818R it makes sense, for the C/S folks want to do more than just race it on a track so a level of comfort is expected that is just lacking. Finally the body work needed for even close to presentable is attrocious. when you buy a kit for 10-14k and then get quotes from body and paint folks for 6-10k it makes you scratch you gun shy. almost spending as much on body and paint is a tough pill to swallow for some. Just some intial thoughts.
oh and to talk to your point. documenting things gets really daunting and a lot of guys hit a point and just stop providing updates but are great with sharing lessons learned. I'd say their are far more on the road/track that start the build and don't finish updating the forum/fb/youtube. Then actually finish updating thier build threads and posts.
18mo is pretty good, how many hours a week do you think you worked on it, or how many hours in total did you work on it? What did you use as your donor car, and what kind of shape was it in?
Could the 818 just be more difficult to build simply because it requires a Viable Donor Car before you start the process?
That could certainly be a factor, from what I've seen donor cars are actually pretty scarce, especially if you want a WRX that hasn't been butchered, especially if you're looking for one at a good price.
For a lot of 818s they are coming from modern day tuner cars (subarus) and trying to build something compareable to the donor is diffcult in creature comforts. (no FF option for AC, radio, and the likes). the basic plastic interior and dash leaves A LOT to be desired and just not well thought out. For a 818R it makes sense, for the C/S folks want to do more than just race it on a track so a level of comfort is expected that is just lacking. Finally the body work needed for even close to presentable is attrocious.
I think that's very likely the case, a lot of people probably want something to impress other people on a budget, not a lightweight track car. Interior finishing is a mysterious art for sure.
I've observed that too. I think a lot of people under estimate the amount of time bodywork takes.
I think most under estimated it because (at least in the early days, I haven't followed FFR's marketing in a while) FFR's statement was "bolt the panels on and buff them!".
All of the points that have been made are vailed reasons. I would like to add that one of the big things missing from the build attempts is proper plaining and follow through on the plan.
Ron
And here’s the answer...planning.
I’ve seeing many projects with pieces parts all over the working area that had no reason to be there.
Over 20 years ago when building my Mustang I was one of them until a a good friend came into the shop and asked “ where’s you attack board ,cause there’s a lot of work to get done here if you want this POS to get done ”...he was a GM guy...
Creating an attack board and sticking to it was key....no need to jump from fender to brakes to engine all in the same day.
If you took on a project of this magnitude is because you were certain that you could follow through and the key is baby steps, the help and information required for all facets of a build are readily available.
All good responses above. I started in 2015, bought a pretty rough donor and ended up refurbished all of the donor parts, because I wanted a "new" car. Why build a kit car if everything is going to look like it came off a 20 year old car? I also upgraded the engine, new short block, port and polish, STi cams, bigger turbo, injectors, flex fuel, etc.
I think the major road block is re-engineering the FFR shortcomings, like the shifter. I scraped all that and went with the ZB solution for the MR2 shifter. Other things like wiring, the FFR way of doing it, will work, but if you are meticulous about your build, you will probably go another direction. I'm halfway through the body work on the gen 1 Red body, no one is exaggerating, it's not a fun part of the build. I've been using the manual as a guide, but there are definitely better way of doing some of the things.
...the key is baby steps, the help and information required for all facets of a build are readily available.
I'll second this. Then triple this.
If you know you have a short-term goal/next-step to take, then baby stepping your way through even a huge or daunting part of the project (e.g. electrical, body work, etc.) makes it both manageable and less intimidating.
I'll also second (or triple) the "life happens" cause for stalling. In my case I had a slew of life events hit me in succession, some of which I'll own as bad decisions, but all of which were more important to address than a project car. There are not many professional builders here; we don't do this to make a living. We do this because it's a fun and creative way to realize a personal goal we believe we can achieve. I'm still in it, but I did take a few years off while I cleared the way to address things that were a higher priority.
A friend of mine that built a mk4 roadster reminded me to break down the project to their systems, brakes, cooling, electrical, ect. This kept the project from being overwhelming.
Personally though, work is overwhelming the available time and energy that I have. I'm lucky to be able to work on the car one day a week. Saying that I'm going at a snail's pace would be generous. Lol
I'd bet some projects run into trouble simply because of over-expectations, in particular completion dates. Few of us really set a target date but we do have some idea when we "think" it will wrap up. Miss those targets repeatedly and one becomes discouraged. That did happen to me a few times, even though I did not overall have a target for the whole car. I had to keep reminding myself it is a project for fun and hobby, also an excuse to spend time engineering (conjuring really) changes to the car.
Two things helped me - like Jet and others - ran a "to do" list from before the start. I got a lot of enjoyment working that list down over time, albeit many times I was adding to it as fast as cleaning it up. Another thing that worked for me, but no doubt not for some, I jumped around on different things constantly - rarely finishing one thing before getting into something else. You could tell that was going on just by reading my build as I came back to something a number of times with a lack of flow. But that kept me from getting bored or tired of wrestling with something and letting it ALL sit - instead I'd just switch to something else on the build for a week or way more then come back to something.
In one respect I'm pretty lucky that there was nothing in the project that I didn't relish doing myself, from refurbishing the scrap yard stuff (had no donor per se), various changes and custom parts design/build, upholstery, wiring and yes body/paint. And I went into it with the determination that I'm building this, not paying someone to do it for me. (Don't get me wrong on that last one, not everyone wants, trusts or has the time/energy to do everything themselves and I totally respect that.)
Just try to evaluate what you expect to do building one of these and consider that ol' man Murphy will be sure to throw some monkey-wrenches in whenever he can.
Planning can never be overemphasized, nor the tenacity to execute the plan. I bought the donor car with the intent of rebuilding and refurbishing every part that I needed, as well as selling as many of the unecessary parts to help reduce my cost, before ever ordering the kit. Since I was working in my two car garage, my daily driver had to sit outside. All of the parts were cleaned de rusted, blasted, re built or new ordered before the kit arrived. That gave me room to minimize the number of parts in the garage and get to the build after the kit arrived. It took me 6 months to tear down and rebuild the 04 wrx, and 18 months to title and license after the kit arrived.
Too many buy the kit for the car and not the build. If you’re not into the build you won’t be happy with the car. And most aren’t prepared to put in the hours on the things no one sees or doesn’t net big results. That’s why people stall after the go kart stage.
Kit car builds are like marriages, 50% don’t work out.
Adam _____ Instagram @PopesProjects____ YouTube Channel
818 SRX - #91
Arrived 01/02/2014
First Start 10/31/2016
First Drive 05/22/2017
Registered 10/25/2019 BRAP818
I kept a daily record of what I did and the time I spent, but I have never added it all up. I worked on it almost every day for at least 3-4 hours. Some things like removing the bolts from the rear hub carriers, which were rusty took probably a week of soaking and hammering. I used a 2004 wrx wagon with 163K miles from Georgia, so the rust was not as bad as it could have been if it had been from further north. It had a new short block put in it at 100k, so did basic maintenance, belts, seals, flywheel clutch but did not open the engine.
Have you been working on it continually for 5 years? How often / how much do you work on it?
I've taken some creative breaks, but try to get a few hours in each week. In those 5 years, a lot of life happened, like selling/buying a new house and having my first kid.
Again, It really depends on how much you go off the script. If I would have stuck to the manual and not added any extras, I could have built two by now (it feels like).
I will add the thought that the go-kart stage brings home the realization that you are literally putting your life and that of your passenger on the line. Your craftsmanship, knowledge, and judgment matter in ways not normally pondered.
I've had several moments since we got to go-kart in late October of serious reflection and have reviewed my work in a few areas. This is not for the faint of heart.
I will add the thought that the go-kart stage brings home the realization that you are literally putting your life and that of your passenger on the line. Your craftsmanship, knowledge, and judgment matter in ways not normally pondered.
I've had several moments since we got to go-kart in late October of serious reflection and have reviewed my work in a few areas. This is not for the faint of heart.
Definitely second that. the go-kart stage will reinvigorate your love for the project and we have you second guessing any short cuts you might have taken.
Also, not a good a good idea to go ripping it with skinny sun cracked/belted tires in the rear with over 275whp, especially off the line.
I will add the thought that the go-kart stage brings home the realization that you are literally putting your life and that of your passenger on the line. Your craftsmanship, knowledge, and judgment matter in ways not normally pondered.
I've had several moments since we got to go-kart in late October of serious reflection and have reviewed my work in a few areas. This is not for the faint of heart.
For me it wasn't a question of my craftsmanship, but of the design that I started to question. Mostly side impact (or lack thereof) and why I decided to treat it like a motorcycle with four wheels and wear a helmet and went with the R windshield.
I started in 2014, got it to go-cart stage pretty quickly. The mechanical and electrical was a lot of fun, the body work is where I stalled. I then got very busy with work and did not have enough time for family, work and car so car was put on the back burner. I just recently started again. I will also say that the first time I mixed up some resin to do some body work in my garage it became clear that I couldn't do that again in the house(even the dogs were pissed). I just finished a small 1 bay shop detached from the house so now I can continue. My opinion is a kit car should be attempted by at least 2 people, one strong mechanically and one strong with body work.
All great points and comments that are useful to a new builder.
I didn't put a time line per say but did set monthly goals along with a budget that was really a white paper that was constantly updated and adjusted as my plans changed. I completed my build 2 years from the day I received the kit. I averaged about 8 hours a week on the car but found it important to take a break now and then which allowed a fresh prospective and refresh the bank account. To be fair my build was a R so I things like interior details, doors that open and close or being road legal were not a concern.
It is such a great feeling of pride and accomplishment when completed (not sure these projects are ever 100% completed which is part of the fun) September 15 2018-105 T13 2.jpg3.4 Front.jpg
I am currently 2 1/2 years into a Pro Touring build that is at least another year to run and a few more to finish at my current pace.
Last edited by Mitch Wright; 12-30-2020 at 09:05 AM.
Good comments. When I was actively working on the car I was traveling 3 weeks out of 4 and my wife worked every sunday, so I read the forum and planned each weekend and made a big push each sunday to make progress. I got the car registered after 3 years of working on it this way. I have loved driving it, but still need to finish the bodywork as mine is the same stormtrooper white as Bob's. It took a push at the end to get it registered as both my wife's and my work scheduled changed and I lost the 1 day a week I had to work on the car. Then we bought a 120 year old house and those projects became more urgent. I still look at the body work and think I need do something about that as the fit and finish definitely are not what I wanted, but driving the car still makes me grin every time it comes out of the garage.
Click, This thread is research, whether it is beneficial or not is TBD individually. Compromises are made and rationalized; compromises purchased are disincentives. The complete vehicle is a sum of experiences.
I observed my son and his buddies embrace the "metric" "tuner" cars and realized that all metrics are not the same. With typical consumer use, Toyotas and Hondas reach 300K miles routinely. My experience with Subarus has been so repair-intensive that I had to bail out at 165K and 185K. The experience of enthusiastic driving brings the performance Subarus to major repair between 80K and 100K. Guess what I would choose for a donor?
With an alternative engine as a long range ambition, I bought a 2014 818 that neither of the (2) previous owners got to a running stage. I endure issues from all the previous players.
My “purchased” compromise critique is:
Eleven simply molded body panels are a PIA to bring to completion.
Interesting thread recently on painting a replica Cobra body “on chassis” or off. Painting an 818 part by part is problematic as is handling damage.
Inappropriate transaxle mount angle leads to durability issues.
The Subaru engine sump/lubrication system is not appropriate for the lateral G forces achievable.
FWD shifting hardware is unacceptable for mid-engine application.
The OEM engine management is complex and unreliable. Creativity often makes it worse.
Fuel system same as electrical.
A turbo charged and water cooled FWD engine has cooling issues being located behind the cockpit.
HVAC is ???
Ergonomics are acceptable for only a percentage of body types.
Anti-roll is kinda addressed,
FWD McPherson strut-based steering is fraught with bump steer.
The rear suspension interferes with fat tires.
Option Wilwood brake package is not balanced properly, alternatives are available.
Like eating an elephant, resolution is tedious and if you keep track, it takes more time and money than you have budgeted.
Completion may be delayed or divested, alternatives to the feeling of accomplishment.
jim
The cockpit needs another 2-3” for leg room too. Wheelbase needs another 3” in length to accommodate a variety of tire choices. Ingress/egress needs addressed. Side sill step-over is unnecessary and reduces interior room.
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Why do 818 projects stall / what are the major road blocks?
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Originally Posted by Click
