Possible problem with Ford Racing Control Pack - No throttle plate signal/movement

[BSMotorsports]

Not really a FFTech problem, but maybe someone can provide guidance. Issue is with a 2017 Coyote 5.0 Gen2 using FRPP Control Pack for 5.0/6R80 automatic. Engine is mounted on our test deck (not in car) with fuel regulator, gauge panel, fuel pump, radiator etc. (from the FFive kit) exactly as indicated in the FRPP directions (RF harness does not come into play at this point). Engine will eventually be installed in Gen3 65 Coupe. With ignition switch in run position (engine not running), pump comes on momentarily as it should. Moving the accelerator pedal (APPS), I should see the throttle plate move; however it does not. BUT, the engine will immediately start upon advancing switch to the ign/start position, idle up to 1100-1200 rpm (runs very smooth). Still no response by moving accelerator pedal; as the engine comes up to temp (about 5 min.), around 600 rpm the engine shuts down. I have an HP Tuners scanner in the OBD port and capturing accelerator PIDs among others. Around 700-800 rpm, timing starts to advance and retard (constantly up and down) to try to keep the engine running. Accelerator PID (% movement) does not change while moving the pedal. I've probed the voltage at APPS and see normal voltages on the various pins (reference voltage, etc.). Moving the pedal will make the voltage states change from APPS to PCM; probing wires at the TPS indicates no voltage state changes while moving the pedal from 0% to 100%. So it doesn't look like the PCM is reacting to the throttle input signal at all. Throws a DTC 2112 - Throttle Plate stuck; but the plate moves freely, so this may be a false DTC given no voltage state change at the TPS.

Sent FRPP all testing results along complete page of other information they may need. A few hours later, I got an email back that stated their Control Pack should be used with their intake and will need a tune. Replied back (politely) to please read the entire email stating (again) the engine would be installed in a FFive Daytona Coupe and no one actually used the FRPP intake. FRPP replies "where is the regulator located, did you alter the wiring harness, and has the tune been changed. I replied "regulator located on the test stand set to 55lbs., did not alter the wiring harness, and tune has not been changed". They responded " we've never seen that problem". That was last week. Their phones are down due to Covid, and your directed to use chat or email. However, chat doesn't work either, so used email. No updates from them since last week.

SO, can anyone suggest how to better troubleshoot or next steps. OR, does anyone (FFive Tech) know how to escalate this to someone within FordRacingPP.

[lewma]

Have you tried chatting with Ford Performance directly ? Here's their chat page:

https://performanceparts.ford.com/contact-us/

[BSMotorsports]

Thanks lewma.......just re-read my note and I said "chat does work either"; meant to say "chat doesn't work either". So yes, tried chat (just tried the link u enclosed) and nothing happens when I hit the chat button. Can u try your link and see if it goes through. May be a problem on my computer. I think they're closed now, but have tried several times during normal business hours and hitting the chat button gives me no response.

Thanks.....much appreciated.

[lewma]

I had to do it from my Safari Browser. If you have popups blocked or ads blocked etc, the chat window doesn't appear.

[BSMotorsports]

Thanks!! Didn't think about that. Just tried it on my iPhone/Safari and got in. I'll disable on myWin10 and try again 2morrow. Much appreciated.

[Alan_C]

Very interested in hearing what your resolution is. I have the same setup, a very low mileage Gen 2 Coyote and 6R80 from a Mustang GT together with the Controls Pack for the Coyote with 6R80. I am quite a ways off from trying to start my build. My vehicle is a 70 Mach 1, not a FFR although I have built and owned one. I come here because there is more Coyote and 6R80 experience here than on the vintage Mustang forums.

You noted the change in the output voltage from the APPS, but did you check to see the same changes at the input of the PCM? Sometimes wires get damaged in the harness. Have you checked the condition of the pins in the PCM harness side connector? Sometimes pins are not inserted into the connector properly and they result in an open connection. I have the documentation from FP for the Controls Pack Harness if you think that could help?

In the last year I have had a number of Chat conversations as well as email exchanges with Ford Performance. Covid has had an effect on their communication and answers. My last question was in regards to whether Ford had built into the 6R80 and PCM a neutral safety switch function. This stumped them with no real answer to the question. It was actually confirmed here on this forum by a builder with the 6R80 in his 33 truck.

Good luck, hope you can resolve this easily.

[BSMotorsports]

Thank Alan for the response. The engine is a 2017 Mustang GT/Premium. I got the engine, 6R80, PCM, shifter mechanism, steering wheel w/paddles, and complete 3.73/Torsen rear-end for $7,500. All parts look brand new. However, the main engine harness was cut, so had to replace it. So yes, I've re-seated all the connections at least twice and checked for misaligned pins. It's odd that I see reference voltage, but don't get any voltage transition. I'm seeing reference voltage and transition when probing between the APPS and the PCM, but no voltage transition between the PCM to the TPS. Engine starts fine and runs for about 5min. and then idle begins to hunt as the engine warms up. Shuts down after 5min. and moving the accel pedal while its running has no effect.

EdwardB (El Maestro) responded to a forum member about wiring up the control pack; it's really pretty simple. I have the FRPP installation instructions pretty much committed to memory. Also, have the Ford Mustang shop manual for trouble shooting and wiring diagrams. First response was disappointing when I received the email from FRPP that stated I had to use their airbox/intake and get a tune. I wrote up a full page of info that outlined all the specs and trouble shooting results, but I don't think the tech read it. So I'll try FRPP chat this morning and see what happens. Since I have the original PCM, I wonder what would happen if I plugged it into the currently configured wiring setup, licensed it via HPTuners, and turned off VATS/PATS/security. Would it start? Hmmmmmmm

Love the '70s cars. I have numbers matching '71 350/auto and '72 454/Muncie Corvettes in the garage doing body-off restorations. It's what unmarried old retirees do!! That and a 3 grand-kids.

[Alan_C]

If you substitute the OEM PCM, I believe the engine will not start even with reprogramming. The primary difference is the fuel system, returnless on the GT and return type for the controls pack configuration. I remember there is a comment in the controls pack instructions saying that substituting the controls pack PCM for the OEM one will result in a no start.

I agree on loving the cars from the muscle car days. I am a retired engineer and still married, but need a hobby to keep my mind busy. Before retiring here to Prescott, I had no idea how much of a car culture there was here with the older guys. I can't wait for the vaccine and Covid to get under control. We are missing out on a lot being mostly isolated at home.

[Al_C]

I don't know if this will help or not, but I'll throw in my 2 cents. It appears the only things that have changed (since it ran last) is you're using the controls pack PCM and you have a new main engine harness. I'm wondering if the "new" engine harness is a different version than your original. Consider that there are essentially two versions of the Gen II, and the later iteration doesn't have as many cut outs as the earlier (2015-2016) version. I would suspect there are changes in the PCM as well. Since your donor was a 2017, it should be the later Gen II, but if it were built early in the production year, perhaps it wasn't? You have probably done this, but it doesn't hurt to ask - did you compare main harnesses to each other? I'm thinking the issue has to be some difference in the variables that changed.

[BSMotorsports]

Thanks, Al_C, for the response. U may very well have hit the nail on the head. Ever have that feeling in ur gut that something just wasn't right. I replaced the harness with a Ford OEM engine harness, proper part #, etc. The part number is identical for 2016 and 2017 Mustang 5.0. Ford techs said nothing about an early vs late model, and told me the harness would fit based on VIN #. However, when I installed it, it was either the injector connections and the COPlug connections didn't fit (don't remember which). So I ended up snipping the connectors off the old harness and soldering them into the new harness. Couldn't simply re-pin them because the termination pins on the new harness wouldn't fit the old harness connectors. Odd thing is the color code on the wires matched perfectly old to new. But I always wondered about what else may be different. So I'm learning a lot as I progress.

On another note, dug into the bowels of Windows 10 and found parameters to enable JavaScript and disable pop-up blocking (thanks to lewma's advice). Had a long chat session this morning. As I entered the chat session, I recognized the name of the person I had been trying to communicate with via email. He apologized for not getting back to and told me there are only 4 techs who work a full 8 hours on the chat line and don't have a chance to answer emails like they should. We went over all the previous data and troubleshooting and he said this was a real mystery, but he would huddle with the techs and get back to me this afternoon. Sure enough, he emailed this afternoon, and said if I've truly, truly, honestly did all the testing I said I did, they would look at the PCM. BUT, after thinking about it this afternoon, I concluded that I could do some end-to end continuity checking on the harness. Also, I'm going to try to compare old vs new wiring harness wire by wire. Told the tech I would get back to him next week with results. So we'll what I come up with.

[lewma]

I'm about to split open my wiring harness for my Gen2 tonight. Trying to solve a ECU P0620 fault code - alternator circuit fault. That's after spending $$$ on new alternator and new battery too

[Alan_C]

Interesting comment regarding there being an early and late Gen 2 Coyote engine harness. However, note that the engine harness does not contain the APPS signals, the body harness supplied with the Controls Pack has those signals. The new engine harness would have the TPS signals though.

A concern regarding the engine harness would be that one for the 6R80 was purchased as there is a unique engine harness for the 6R80 equipped cars.

Have you discussed in a Chat the modifications you had to make to the new harness to connect to the COP or injectors? Hopefully noting that your harness was not plug and play should jog someones memory at FP.

[BSMotorsports]

Alan_C Yep, told them about the harness mod, but the tech didn't seem to think it was a problem since the engine starts and runs (briefly). Yep, the engine harness has a 15-16 wire plug that twist lock into the right side of the transmission, so I think we're good there. Lots of testing to do next week.

Just went back and looked at lewma's original post about his alternator problem. Excellent alternator/trouble code doc attached in his post. Had to save it to my reference library; may come in handy down the road.

[Alan_C]

I am still trying to process your comment that the rep did not see your needing to modify the harness as a problem. The proper harness for your engine should be plug and play. The need to modify the harness to fit clearly shows a mis-match. For the rep to not understand why the harness did not fit is a concern. At a minimum, I would have expected the rep to have figured out why the mod was needed and identify the correct harness part number for your engine.

Since Covid, I have not had much luck getting good answers from Ford Performance either via the online Chat or via email. Good luck, very interested in hearing that you have solved the issue and what it was.

[slowgto]

Did you try loading the coyote layout from HPT and adding the accelerator pedal readout? It sounds like something is wrong with the pinout on that harness.

[Silv3rsurf3r]

For what its worth, when i built mine(about 2 yrs ago...so a lil hazy), albeit same engine(2017 gen 2 coyote) different tranny and different car, i had a few codes pop up on initial start but it ran. Ford told me to send it in to them which they promptly shipped back saying nothing was wrong with it and asked what i was putting it in which i told them a FFR roadster. They said that is normal and that it will need to be tuned(which i had done and havent had any issues since). So trying to get to the point here, during that conversation with FRPP and picking their brains...apparently the crates engines they sell (which i bought through FF with my kit) come with different ECU and wiring harness than what comes in the actual mustang, and i believe i remember him mentioning that it is something to do with that in a mustang all the connections MUST be connected for it to work correctly because the ECU is so sensitive. So if your running this on a test stand and not everything is connected i would wonder if that is the problem...i do know that in the crate motor engines and ecu lockout the Ti-VCT somehow probably due to some sensors and vacuum plumbing not being used in a kit car(or test stand) like they are found in the mustang. So, the takeaway here is...if your running the coyote on a test stand with mustang harness and ecu i dont think it will work, you will need the crate motor harness and ecu. Again its been a few years since i talked with ford about this so definitely double-check that info with ford. Hope that helps!

[edwardb]

For what its worth, when i built mine(about 2 yrs ago...so a lil hazy), albeit same engine(2017 gen 2 coyote) different tranny and different car, i had a few codes pop up on initial start but it ran. Ford told me to send it in to them which they promptly shipped back saying nothing was wrong with it and asked what i was putting it in which i told them a FFR roadster. They said that is normal and that it will need to be tuned(which i had done and havent had any issues since). So trying to get to the point here, during that conversation with FRPP and picking their brains...apparently the crates engines they sell (which i bought through FF with my kit) come with different ECU and wiring harness than what comes in the actual mustang, and i believe i remember him mentioning that it is something to do with that in a mustang all the connections MUST be connected for it to work correctly because the ECU is so sensitive. So if your running this on a test stand and not everything is connected i would wonder if that is the problem...i do know that in the crate motor engines and ecu lockout the Ti-VCT somehow probably due to some sensors and vacuum plumbing not being used in a kit car(or test stand) like they are found in the mustang. So, the takeaway here is...if your running the coyote on a test stand with mustang harness and ecu i dont think it will work, you will need the crate motor harness and ecu. Again its been a few years since i talked with ford about this so definitely double-check that info with ford. Hope that helps!

To be clear -- The Coyote crate motors that Ford Performance sells are bone stock Coyote 5.0 motors intended for manual shift Mustang models. They come from the factory with the engine wiring, again for manual shift. Ford Performance doesn't do anything to them except put in a shipping crate. The Ford Performance control pack adds a custom harness that integrates to the stock engine harness. The supplied PCM is the same physical unit as used in Mustangs. But has a difference program (Ford calls it "calibration") for the crate motor. Includes removing the various security functions, changing from returnless to return style fuel delivery, plus likely other differences I'm not familiar with. You can't put the control pack PCM in a Mustang and you can't put a stock Mustang PCM on the crate motor. They're incompatible. The crate motor calibration most definitely does not lock out the Ti-VCT function. That's central to the performance of the Coyote and lockout is only done on very specific aftermarket applications and power adders. Maybe there's confusion with the CMCV function? That's also active, but only if properly plumbed with a vacuum source, which unfortunately is left out of the Ford Performance and Factory Five instructions. Lots of forum bandwidth on that subject. It's common, and required on the hot rod/truck, to remove the CMCV vacuum motors and physically lock the intake runners. For space, but also because some don't want them for various reasons. Also requires a program change to avoid DTC's.

Regarding the OP's original question -- I'm personally not up to speed on how (if it does) the Ford Performance control pack supports an automatic transmission. As I said, in the past the crate motor was a manual shift version and the engine harness reflects that. I don't know what differences occur if an auto shift harness is used. I recall Ford Performance talking about supporting automatic transmissions with their crate motors. But haven't seen anything, although to be honest haven't followed it closely. I know Ford made some running changes on the Gen 2 and there are some differences between early and later versions. Ford Performance also changed the control pack harness slightly. Mostly simplified it a bit. Like most things, maybe driven by cost. But didn't affect how it was wired. I don't know how an automatic setup would affect the function of the throttle body, if at all. But introducing new wiring, connectors, etc. certainly brings a lot of variation into the picture. Since you are able to measure activity at the throttle body connector, any chance the throttle body itself is defective? They're not super expensive. But agree wouldn't be an easy purchase without knowing a replacement is really required. It's really too bad the support at Ford Performance is gone the direction it has. They had cutbacks even before COVID. The one guy (Ray) that I used to talk to that really knew electrical and control issues has been gone for some time. In almost all cases, the techs are going to have to ask someone else (e.g. in engineering or whatever) and as soon as you get off the standard recipe it's going to be difficult. They're standard line always has been "use the stock air box" and "custom tune required" so nothing new there. The Gen 2 runs OK with the commonly used cold air intake (Spectre or whatever) and the stock tune in our builds, although runs even better with a custom tune. The Gen 3 on the other hand runs but is undriveable without a custom tune. Been there done that on both. I know these random thoughts don't help much. Sorry. Good luck.

[BSMotorsports]

Thanks to all the responders for their comments. Sorry it took awhile to update this thread; trying to sell my house in Houston and move out to the beautiful Texas Hill Country! All good information and again, thanks. So the PCM was shipped to FRPP yesterday after another round of head scratching and continuity testing of the harnesses this week. Oddly enough, FRPP wanted me to ship it to Livernois Motorsports, not Ford Performance. Livernois has a pretty good reputation for building and modifying Ford 5.0 and Chevrolet Lxx engines, so hopefully they will find something.

Brief thoughts on some points:

6R80 automatic has a Trans Control Module; it's my understanding from HPTuners, that you can license the TCM when you license the PCM. So you can modify shift points, pressures, responsiveness, but this is a little beyond my capabilities (for now).

The engine wiring harness I bought still bugs me although 2016-2017 part numbers are identical with no note of early/late versions.

Control Pack was purchased mid-2019, but only now being installed because sellers kept trying to sell me an F-150 5.0 version instead of the Mustang 5.0. But external differences are easy to spot. The Control Pack I bought is specifically for the 16-17 Mustang 5.0 supporting either manual or automatic transmission.

I didn't license this engine with HPTuners because the process to license calls for generation of an identification number in the PCM to tie licensing and PCM together. The FRPP PCM comes with a common id number across all Control Packs; tying PCM to an identification number (normally VIN), means you can't reuse the license and puts more licensing $$ in the pockets of HPT. I didn't want to have the FRPP tech tell me that since I licensed the PCM via HPTuners, I was on my own as far as repair/re-flash. So left it bone stock. However, I downloaded/saved on my laptop (from HPTuners download page) a base stock '17 Mustang 5.0 w/automatic tune and a FRPP tune. HPT editor will look at both tunes simultaneously and produce a log of changes. I did this and the change log is very long. So my backup plan is to license the PCM and start modifying 1 parameter at a time, and testing (assuming Livernois doesn't find anything wrong). Hopefully I'll get the PCM back and it's plug and play like so many on the forum have already done. I've got a pretty good understand of using HPTuner software, but far from being an expert. So we'll see how long it takes Livernois to ship the PCM back.

On another note, a forum member who is installing a 5.0/6R80 auto, asked for some transmission wiring information. I passed it along, but suggested he purchase a manual in .pdf form off EBAY for $9.95. He, like me, was looking for engine diagnostic and wiring information, but didn't want to pay $500-$1,000 for a shop manual. If you purchase a .pdf, make sure it is the Ford Mustang manual with wiring diagrams. After purchase, you'll get an email within an hour and you can download the manual. It's 9,500 pages and is the one used by the FRPP tech because he sent me a couple of cut/pastes in an email that looked exactly like what I had already read.

[Silv3rsurf3r]

Yes, what EdB said! I knew he would chime in eventually and after reading what he posted that convo I had with Ford many years ago is lining up better with his details. Disregard what I said about the Ti-VCT being locked out, I was actually referring to the CMCV function and intake runners being locked out like EdB said. Thats what I was getting the DTC's for along with one for the cooling system and I think another with the MAF(because I didnt use the air box), all of which were corrected with a tune. Thanks EdB for clearing that up not to mention all the help you gave me on my build, wish I had that elephant brain of yours!

Regarding support for the automatic transmission, I just pulled up the controls pack instructions and it says it supports automatics as well, I'm sure this is the one you already have right?...I'll try to attach it
https://performanceparts.ford.com/do..._504V_REV3.PDF

[BSMotorsports]

Yep, that's the Control Pack I'm using. And HPTuners will license the PCM and the TCM/6R80. On another note, I've read several articles concerning the CMCV setup. Locking them open will kill the low end torque on a normally aspirated motor. But on a boosted motor, it's best to lock them open; even better would be to remove them altogether.

[Alan_C]

Thanks to all the responders for their comments. Sorry it took awhile to update this thread; trying to sell my house in Houston and move out to the beautiful Texas Hill Country! All good information and again, thanks. So the PCM was shipped to FRPP yesterday after another round of head scratching and continuity testing of the harnesses this week. Oddly enough, FRPP wanted me to ship it to Livernois Motorsports, not Ford Performance. Livernois has a pretty good reputation for building and modifying Ford 5.0 and Chevrolet Lxx engines, so hopefully they will find something.

Brief thoughts on some points:

6R80 automatic has a Trans Control Module; it's my understanding from HPTuners, that you can license the TCM when you license the PCM. So you can modify shift points, pressures, responsiveness, but this is a little beyond my capabilities (for now).

The engine wiring harness I bought still bugs me although 2016-2017 part numbers are identical with no note of early/late versions.

Control Pack was purchased mid-2019, but only now being installed because sellers kept trying to sell me an F-150 5.0 version instead of the Mustang 5.0. But external differences are easy to spot. The Control Pack I bought is specifically for the 16-17 Mustang 5.0 supporting either manual or automatic transmission.

I didn't license this engine with HPTuners because the process to license calls for generation of an identification number in the PCM to tie licensing and PCM together. The FRPP PCM comes with a common id number across all Control Packs; tying PCM to an identification number (normally VIN), means you can't reuse the license and puts more licensing $$ in the pockets of HPT. I didn't want to have the FRPP tech tell me that since I licensed the PCM via HPTuners, I was on my own as far as repair/re-flash. So left it bone stock. However, I downloaded/saved on my laptop (from HPTuners download page) a base stock '17 Mustang 5.0 w/automatic tune and a FRPP tune. HPT editor will look at both tunes simultaneously and produce a log of changes. I did this and the change log is very long. So my backup plan is to license the PCM and start modifying 1 parameter at a time, and testing (assuming Livernois doesn't find anything wrong). Hopefully I'll get the PCM back and it's plug and play like so many on the forum have already done. I've got a pretty good understand of using HPTuner software, but far from being an expert. So we'll see how long it takes Livernois to ship the PCM back.

On another note, a forum member who is installing a 5.0/6R80 auto, asked for some transmission wiring information. I passed it along, but suggested he purchase a manual in .pdf form off EBAY for $9.95. He, like me, was looking for engine diagnostic and wiring information, but didn't want to pay $500-$1,000 for a shop manual. If you purchase a .pdf, make sure it is the Ford Mustang manual with wiring diagrams. After purchase, you'll get an email within an hour and you can download the manual. It's 9,500 pages and is the one used by the FRPP tech because he sent me a couple of cut/pastes in an email that looked exactly like what I had already read.

6R80 automatic has a Trans Control Module; it's my understanding from HPTuners, that you can license the TCM when you license the PCM. So you can modify shift points, pressures, responsiveness, but this is a little beyond my capabilities (for now).

This is an interesting comment. The control pack PCM for use with the 6R80 outwardly looks identical to what was in my donor and what I see on this forum for manual transmission builds. So the TCM is a function built into the PCM, not used for manual transmissions and enabled for use with the 6R80.

The engine wiring harness I bought still bugs me although 2016-2017 part numbers are identical with no note of early/late versions.

The Control Pack I bought is specifically for the 16-17 Mustang 5.0 supporting either manual or automatic transmission.

This is another interesting comment. I bought my control pack in 2018, at that time the part number was different between manual and automatic versions of the control pack. One version of the control pack did not support both. I think this is worth checking out too. Even if it will have nothing to do with the drive by wire pedal, could be all the difference in the world when it comes time to try to drive the car.


I passed it along, but suggested he purchase a manual in .pdf form off EBAY for $9.95. He, like me, was looking for engine diagnostic and wiring information, but didn't want to pay $500-$1,000 for a shop manual. If you purchase a .pdf, make sure it is the Ford Mustang manual with wiring diagrams.

I need to do this for reference and to identify the AC compressor wire functions.

[Silv3rsurf3r]

Yep, that's the Control Pack I'm using. And HPTuners will license the PCM and the TCM/6R80. On another note, I've read several articles concerning the CMCV setup. Locking them open will kill the low end torque on a normally aspirated motor. But on a boosted motor, it's best to lock them open; even better would be to remove them altogether.

Regarding the low-end torque...400 lb/ft in a 2100 lb car equates to needing drag slicks if your trying to aggressively use that torque lol.

[BSMotorsports]

Silv3 LOL. I helped a friend swap a '90-something 302 HO Mustang engine into a 1994 Miata years ago. Yep, tire burner.

Alan_C Good feedback. Just to clarify, here's a note from the Ford manual concerning 6R80; terminology can be confusing. "The main control consists of a valve body assembly with solenoids that are controlled by the PCM. The PCM operates the electrical components to provide refined engagement feel, shift feel, and shift scheduling".

That valve body assembly with solenoids is sometimes referred to as the TCM. When u look at the various entries in the PCM program, there's a section covering torque management. That's where all the shift programming takes place. HPTuners licensing is a little confusing, but I'll find out more. I don't know why they have separate licensing for the TCM when the shifting strategy is programmed in the PCM. Makes my brain hurt. I'm going back to working on the Coupe build while I wait to see what Livernois comes up with.

[Alan_C]

That valve body assembly with solenoids is sometimes referred to as the TCM. When u look at the various entries in the PCM program, there's a section covering torque management. That's where all the shift programming takes place. HPTuners licensing is a little confusing, but I'll find out more. I don't know why they have separate licensing for the TCM when the shifting strategy is programmed in the PCM. Makes my brain hurt. I'm going back to working on the Coupe build while I wait to see what Livernois comes up with.

Thanks for the clarification, makes sense the TCM is in the transmission. I asked FP if I could weld son the car safely with the transmission installed, they suggested no. I did some testing and noted that so long as you do not ground the transmission in anyway, it is isolated from the frame. I verified this with my DMM before I did any welding.

Please post when you find out more about the HP tuner and the TCM. I chose to go with a 3.50 gearing for the car. I asked FP how the transmission could be reprogrammed for the change in the final drive ratio. They said I did not need to, didn't make sense to me. Another one of those answers from FP that I question. Your comment that the TCM can be reprogrammed with the HP tuner makes a lot more sense. I was hoping there would be a entry for final drive ratio and the transmission programming would adjust accordingly.

Thanks again, eventually we will figure out how the 6R80 really works.