Ming's MK4 Roadster #9958 Build Thread

[John Ibele]

Congrats on getting back to regular exercise

Engine mount - I’m not a coyote guy, so can’t comment directly on your experience regarding clearance. But while I know it’s a tight fit, I haven’t read of anyone having to shim under their mounts, and doing engineering on safety items like this always concerns me. I’d suggest posting this specific item in the main roadster forum to get more eyes on it, if you haven’t already.

Radiator mount - cool. Breeze makes a nice kit, but the components are readily sourced, and it seems fairly straightforward to produce something that works well and looks good.

Glove box - good for you, and good progress so far. You can see detail in my build thread … a bit messy where it doesn’t show, but fully functional and neat looking where it does. Fixit has a humorous and very frank coverage of his attempts and ultimate success in his thread. You can find others as well.

For my glove box, I’m now very comfortable with the use of Super77 for covering material and JBWeld for the structural stuff. Could have (and wish I would have) made the epoxy neater on the back side, but as I said, works fine regardless and won’t show. I liked using the galvanized from the HVAC aisle for this project and would use it again.

Your question about outside corners. Not totally sure what you mean. Maybe take a look at my or other build threads and PM me with questions. Good luck and good progress!

[edwardb]

I found some 1/4" aluminum plate on Amazon and made some engine mount shims to give some more space on the driver side.

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First time I've seen anyone have to add an additional shim beyond the 1/2" spacer that Factory Five provides to go inside the motor mounts. Including my Coyote/Mk4 build. It was close, but not as much as yours. I'm betting you could lift the engine out of the mounts just slightly, tip it away from the DS footbox, and drop it back down and it would clear. Even just loosening the motor mount bolts and jacking the engine on the DS (e.g. on the headers) and tightening it back up will move it just enough. It only takes a very slight movement at the mounts to provide clearance. Because the engine mounts kind of wedge into the frame mounts, it will often be off slightly when you put it down and doesn't move. What I'm describing is common for all engines, often when trying to align the side pipes. So nothing new. Having said all that, and assuming you leave it as is, I'm hoping that motor mount nut you pictured isn't tightened? Hard to tell for sure from the picture. There should be threads all the way through the nut and ideally 2-3 outside the nut.

[Jeff Kleiner]

...assuming you leave it as is, I'm hoping that motor mount nut you pictured isn't tightened? Hard to tell for sure from the picture. There should be threads all the way through the nut and ideally 2-3 outside the nut.

Agreed. I had the same thought as Paul when viewing the photo and also noticed that the alignment pin doesn't appear to reach far enough to engage. An additional consideration is that by raising the engine you'll also bring the headers and sidepipes up. Unless you're using J-pipes the Coyotes already require a high cut out on the body for the pipes, especially on the driver's side. Use of this shim will exacerbate that situation.

Just so you know

Jeff

[Merciless]

Congrats on getting back to regular exercise

Glove box - good for you, and good progress so far. You can see detail in my build thread … a bit messy where it doesn’t show, but fully functional and neat looking where it does. Fixit has a humorous and very frank coverage of his attempts and ultimate success in his thread. You can find others as well.

For my glove box, I’m now very comfortable with the use of Super77 for covering material and JBWeld for the structural stuff. Could have (and wish I would have) made the epoxy neater on the back side, but as I said, works fine regardless and won’t show. I liked using the galvanized from the HVAC aisle for this project and would use it again.

Your question about outside corners. Not totally sure what you mean. Maybe take a look at my or other build threads and PM me with questions. Good luck and good progress!

John, thank you for the encouragement. After looking at your thread, I have a much better idea of how to install the glove box. I also realized that your build is what made me want to build my own glovebox. Double thanks.

[Merciless]

First time I've seen anyone have to add an additional shim beyond the 1/2" spacer that Factory Five provides to go inside the motor mounts. Including my Coyote/Mk4 build. It was close, but not as much as yours. I'm betting you could lift the engine out of the mounts just slightly, tip it away from the DS footbox, and drop it back down and it would clear. Even just loosening the motor mount bolts and jacking the engine on the DS (e.g. on the headers) and tightening it back up will move it just enough. It only takes a very slight movement at the mounts to provide clearance. Because the engine mounts kind of wedge into the frame mounts, it will often be off slightly when you put it down and doesn't move. What I'm describing is common for all engines, often when trying to align the side pipes. So nothing new. Having said all that, and assuming you leave it as is, I'm hoping that motor mount nut you pictured isn't tightened? Hard to tell for sure from the picture. There should be threads all the way through the nut and ideally 2-3 outside the nut.

[QUOTE=John Ibele;513267]Congrats on getting back to regular exercise

Engine mount - IÂ’m not a coyote guy, so canÂ’t comment directly on your experience regarding clearance. But while I know itÂ’s a tight fit, I havenÂ’t read of anyone having to shim under their mounts, and doing engineering on safety items like this always concerns me. IÂ’d suggest posting this specific item in the main roadster forum to get more eyes on it, if you havenÂ’t already.

Agreed. I had the same thought as Paul when viewing the photo and also noticed that the alignment pin doesn't appear to reach far enough to engage. An additional consideration is that by raising the engine you'll also bring the headers and sidepipes up. Unless you're using J-pipes the Coyotes already require a high cut out on the body for the pipes, especially on the driver's side. Use of this shim will exacerbate that situation.

Just so you know

Jeff

Thank you all for your warnings. Your points are valid. First, I haven't seen other do this, plus your warnings about raising the exhaust really concerned me. As for the alignment pin and the motor mount nut mentioned by Jeff and Paul should be okay. The pin is long enough that it is still inside the motor mount and the nut was not tightened and there's plenty of thread.

So what I did was test fit the exhaust headers as is and measured the height. They were equal. Then I took the shim out and let the passenger side lower as far as possible as Paul suggested. This gave me more clearance from the engine to the DS foot box. The passenger side header dropped 5/8" and the driver's side actually went up >1/2". I think what happened when I first mounted the engine, I tried to keep the engine level left to right, but this makes the clearance between the engine and the DS footbox too tight. Tilting the engine slightly provide the clearance, but lifts the drivers side header. So the shim I had allow the clearance the footbox and the headers to be level and the DS cutout to be 1/2" lower. I'm going to double check my measurements, but I might try it with the shim. What do you guys think? Am I crazy?

[edwardb]

So what I did was test fit the exhaust headers as is and measured the height. They were equal. Then I took the shim out and let the passenger side lower as far as possible as Paul suggested. This gave me more clearance from the engine to the DS foot box. The passenger side header dropped 5/8" and the driver's side actually went up >1/2". I think what happened when I first mounted the engine, I tried to keep the engine level left to right, but this makes the clearance between the engine and the DS footbox too tight. Tilting the engine slightly provide the clearance, but lifts the drivers side header. So the shim I had allow the clearance the footbox and the headers to be level and the DS cutout to be 1/2" lower. I'm going to double check my measurements, but I might try it with the shim. What do you guys think? Am I crazy?

Crazy? No, of course not. But I'd suggest one thing at a time though. The headers moving as much as you described (5/8 and 1/2) is a lot. I've never been able to get them to move that much. But your assumption is getting them level is the goal, and that may not be accurate. The headers and side pipes are not exactly the same side-to-side as the engine sits slightly off center to the right. So the angles and lengths are slightly different. Hundreds (or more?) Coyote builds without adding shims in the motor mount as you're describing. That means something. I'd first of all focus on getting the engine sitting with enough clearance on the DS as needed without any added shims. I don't remember exactly how much mine was, but it was in the 1/8 inch range. Drove it thousands of miles before selling and it was never an issue. Lock the engine down at that point and move on. That may not be what you want to hear but is my advice. The header and side pipe alignment is later when the body is on. There are various means to adjust as needed and you may find they're not exactly symmetrical side-to-side. Trust me, won't be the only thing on the car that's not symmetrical. Even 1/2 inch difference, if it comes to that, isn't an issue and will never be seen. Do you by any chance have the newer ball joint setup on the exhaust? If so, even less of a concern.

[Merciless]

Crazy? No, of course not. But I'd suggest one thing at a time though. The headers moving as much as you described (5/8 and 1/2) is a lot. I've never been able to get them to move that much. But your assumption is getting them level is the goal, and that may not be accurate. The headers and side pipes are not exactly the same side-to-side as the engine sits slightly off center to the right. So the angles and lengths are slightly different. Hundreds (or more?) Coyote builds without adding shims in the motor mount as you're describing. That means something. I'd first of all focus on getting the engine sitting with enough clearance on the DS as needed without any added shims. I don't remember exactly how much mine was, but it was in the 1/8 inch range. Drove it thousands of miles before selling and it was never an issue. Lock the engine down at that point and move on. That may not be what you want to hear but is my advice. The header and side pipe alignment is later when the body is on. There are various means to adjust as needed and you may find they're not exactly symmetrical side-to-side. Trust me, won't be the only thing on the car that's not symmetrical. Even 1/2 inch difference, if it comes to that, isn't an issue and will never be seen. Do you by any chance have the newer ball joint setup on the exhaust? If so, even less of a concern.

Paul, your powers of persuasion are uncanny. Without calling me crazy, you've convinced me with your "Hundreds (or more?) Coyote builds without adding shims" and So for now, I've removed the shims and will see when the exhaust pipes are mounted. Thank you all for your input.

[Merciless]

I started the wiring and it's a bit intimidating because it's not all very obvious to me. I started with the Coyote harness.
I first cut out the ICP connection and cut it back into the harness.

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Then I cut out the ATT and CMS LH and RH connectors are cut them back into the harness. For the LH and RH, I had to cut them where the red wire was split 4 ways. 2 were for the LH and RH and 2 were for the O2 sensors.

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[Merciless]

For the PS O2 sensor, I had to resplice the red wire back at an earlier point in order for it to reach.

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Not pictured, but I also removed the CAN Bus wire and hid them back in the harness.

[Merciless]

For the RF Harness, here's what I did shown on the wiring diagram.

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Here are some of the connections for the fuel pump relay, EFI to Ign Trigger and EFI Crank to SMR. The connections are not that great looking but they seem solid enough with "the pull test".

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I plan to eliminate the sending unit harness all together since the Oil Pressure and Water Temp wires came with the vintage gauges, the choke and the thermo switch are not needed.

[Merciless]

I epoxied the heck out of the glove box. Then I drilled beveled holes in the dash to counter sink to screws for securing the glove box. I had to grind down the top of the screw head so they would be flush or below the surface of the dash.

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This is a mockup before I epoxy the screw into the dash. The two holes on the bottom are for the grab bar. The hole on the top needs to be patched due to over drilling.

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[Merciless]

Cut back the RF fan wiring (blue) as the fan is controlled by Coyote Control Pack
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I connected purple Tach wire to the #4 ignition coil and wrapped it all in the harness
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[Merciless]

Here's the mess of my dash test fit. I ended up taking a lot of the wiring out of the harness.


Attachment 190514

This is basically the dash layout


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Cutting out the electric choke wire (Tan) from the fuse block and the Fan wire (green) from the cooling fan relay.
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I cut out a bunch from the dash harness. The green highlight means removed. The picture shows the Oil Temp, Oil Pressure and Water Temp wires removed from the dash harness connector. My oil pressure and water temps are wire directly from the sensor to the dash gauge.
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More dieting on the dash harness.
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I also remove the speedo wires from the rear harness connector.
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[Merciless]

I installed some 3 pin weather pack for the front signal lights
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For the rear, I used the flat converter which eliminates the brake light wiring.
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[Merciless]

Since I'm directly wiring from the sensors to the gauge, I had to dissect the wires from the Oil Pressure sensor and the Water Temp sensor to connect them to ground.
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[Merciless]

These are catchup posts. Some of these were done back in Sept. I've not been great with documenting as much as I would like.

I used the 1/8" closed cell high density foam from amazon. I liked the feel. 3M Super 77. This is for the inside of the glove box.
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One issue I ran into with the foam were the creases. I ordered the foam back in Feb, I don't remember if the creases were there when it first arrived. Google provided a few solutions. The heat gun helped a little if the crease wasn't so deep.

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I tried to avoid the worst part of the creases.

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I'm using a marine vinyl faux leather over the foam.

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I cut the original firewall and bend it to make a cover under the dash. I have a confession. I didn't have a brake and clamps and 2x4's wasn't working so I walked in to a Harbor Freight with the panel and when no one was looking bent the panel on their display model.

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[Merciless]

Copying others great idea, I also used the Summit Racing Eddie Marine grab bar for the passenger side. To secure it I got some angle and C-channels from Home Depot. A buddy lending me his welding machine offer to do the welding for me. It wasn't pretty, but it's all going to be hidden behind the dash.

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This is what it looks like with the dash.
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[Merciless]

For the door, I took the piece that I cut out of the dash for the glovebox as the front panel. Used it as a template and cut a slightly smaller piece for the back panel. Wrapped the front piece with foam and vinyl and the back with only vinyl.

In order the hide the screws for the hinges, I took some pretty flat head screw and flatten them some more. Then I epoxied the two panels together to make the door.

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Figuring out where to attach the hinges was not so simple. It took a lot of trial and error. In the end I think it worked ok. I used a cabinet hinge. It has a very tight spring. I had thought about removing the spring, but didn't in the end. It helps to keep the door closed. I used the VW latch that I saw in other's builds.
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[Merciless]

Last few things before 1st start. Kind of excited.
Prelube the engine through the pressure sensor port with a garden sprayer. Put 7 qts through the garden strayer and 1 qt on the top. (Mike Forte sent 9 qts, but 1 was hiding. I didn't find it until later.
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The other item to finish up was the cooling system which included the heater. I got some extra heater hose and a 4-port heater bypass valve from Old Air Products and completed the heater connections. I was worried about how the hoses, valve and heater would line up and fit. Actually, it worked out.
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[John Ibele]

Nice progress. I'll be interested in how your 4-port bypass valve works; that's in my plan for winter finishing touches ... plenty of hot air gets pushed through the blower even when the heater is 'off'. Better louvered vents which shut all the way will help in the cockpit, but I figure the 4 port bypass valve is really the way to get the temps down.

Your glove box looks great. I think anyone who tackles their own gets bragging rights ... definitely goes beyond just assembling parts. And it's fun when it comes together as planned.

You thought your grab rail mounting wasn't pretty ... I think all's well that ends well. Looks fine up top, and it sure isn't going anywhere.

Good luck moving on to first start!

[Merciless]

Nice progress. I'll be interested in how your 4-port bypass valve works; that's in my plan for winter finishing touches ... plenty of hot air gets pushed through the blower even when the heater is 'off'. Better louvered vents which shut all the way will help in the cockpit, but I figure the 4 port bypass valve is really the way to get the temps down.

Your glove box looks great. I think anyone who tackles their own gets bragging rights ... definitely goes beyond just assembling parts. And it's fun when it comes together as planned.

You thought your grab rail mounting wasn't pretty ... I think all's well that ends well. Looks fine up top, and it sure isn't going anywhere.

Good luck moving on to first start!

Thanks for the encouragement. I will let you know about the 4 way valve once I get the car going and start driving it. I had to use it for the Coyote.

[Merciless]

It was a beautiful Saturday morning late October. Everything was ready, the wiring's done, the cooling system is buttoned up. I even changed out the dreaded gas tank grommet.

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I even called a friend who helped me put in the engine to come witness this momentous milestone. Before he arrived I ran out to get a couple of gallons of 93 octane. When he arrived we shared some donuts and headed straight for the garage. I took advantage of the free labor and put him to work pumping the garden sprayer to prelube the engine while I filled the gas tank. Once it was all buttoned up, we rolled it to the driveway and got the fire extinguisher ready. I did a final walk around the vehicle and connected the neg battery terminal.

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We're ready! All the work I had put in the last three years, thousands of holes drilled and riveted, wires cut and terminated, fuel lines, brake lines, head scratching, confusions - you builders know, was leading up to this moment. I turned the key to ON, the gauges came alive, the relays clicked and actuators buzzed. Here we go. Foot on the clutch, turn the key to Start.... nothing. I look over to my witness/friend. Let's try it again. Still nothing. I drew a blank.

My mind was slow switching out of anticipation, excitement mode. Fuel, spark, and crank. The three words that popped into my head as my mind transitioned to troubleshooting mode. Trying to look like I knew what I was doing in front of my friend I marched confidently to retrieve my multimeter. There was 12V from the key ON to ground. But no power to fuel pump in either the ON or Start position. Looking back on it now, what I did next didn't make a lot sense, but at the time, I was didn't know what to do so I had to do something. I thought, maybe I can put a jumper to energize the fuel pump. I carefully disconnected the battery terminal, stuck a wire between the ON and the fuel pump terminals in the fuse box. Reconnected the battery terminal and flipped the key to ON. This time, I can hear the sound of the fuel pump running. Yes something is happening. But the excitement quickly turned to panic as we started hearing splashing sounds. Fuel was gushing out near the passenger side rear wheel. I quickly switch off the key and pulled the jumper to investigate. The double flare connectors on the supply and return lines were both leaking. I quickly tighten them and wanted to get the jumper back on to try again. But this time, I wasn’t as careful. I didn’t disconnect the battery. The jumper accidently touched another terminal and ground. Pop. Fortunately it was only a fuel pump fuse. There were other unused fuses. I swapped one out, but I didn’t learn my lesson. Pop! Another fuse. Finally I got fuel pump on again, but the leak was still there. I pulled the jumper and I popped the lasted unused fuse. Ultimate defeat.
Six weeks out looking back on that day, I can say in spite of the frustrations, it was still a good day. Got to spend a beautiful morning with a friend working on a really cool project. I learned that when things don’t go according to plans to take a step back before heading into dangerous territories without a plan.

[Merciless]

Over the next few weeks I scoured the internet for why Coyote No Start. Apparently, this happens to a lot of people. Reasons range from bad ECU to bad wiring. I belong to the latter. First I realized that I had wired the starter blue control wire completely wrong. For whatever reason, I eliminated the blue control wire and tied the ground to the control post on the starter. After reading the correct FORD Instructions, I corrected the mistake.
2nd First Start attempt was also a No Start. Back to the internet. I noticed people were calling FORD when they had this issue. I decided to give it a try even though the strike was still going on. To my surprise, someone answered. I explained my situation of putting their coyote engine in a Factory Five Roadster. He said a lot of their calls were from us Factory Five builders. After going through the usual questions, he directed me to check the voltage in the Coyote fuse box for the On and Start positions. He also said that their ECU needed a dedicated ground directed to the battery. After checked the voltage, they were indeed low near 7.5V. After some head scratching, I did run the ECU ground directly to the battery negative terminal. I went back and tighten all the ground and power bus connections. I did find that they were only finger tight. After these corrections, the voltage did increase to 11V.
3rd First Start attempt was successful, but since I didn’t expect it there’s no video. After a couple of weeks, we eventually got there.

[Merciless]

I used a laser level and an angle finder to do the basic alignments.

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However I noticed that my steering is not centered meaning the two tie rods don't have the same the thread. May have to go back and adjust that and do the alignment on the front again.

[Merciless]

I couldn't resist the temptation of installing a radio. I don't even listen to the radio in my DD. I just like the idea of having one with Apple CarPlay. Also I want to in a reverse camera. I mocked up the radio box with card board about 5 times. I called crutchfield and got a Kenwood radio, amp, and got the larges speakers that can fit behind the seats.

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I also went with the FFMetal tunnel cover. In the end I used the old cover to build the radio box. Here's what it looks like. I added cupholders on the tunnel over.

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[Merciless]

The kit cooling tank wasn't cutting it. I've driven it around in go-kart mode and every time it burps out coolant. I finally bit the bullet and got an UPR tank (like Moroso but cheaper). I bent some aluminum and used the angle finder to make the mounts.

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With the new set up, no more coolant burping.

[Merciless]

Here's a video of the start. I noticed that there's a slight squeal at the end of the crank. Maybe need to check the tension of the power steering belt?

[John Ibele]

Wow, your metal / foam / leather fab turned out great! Fun when you get the hang of it, I think. Probably my favorite part of the build. I personally think those VintageAir knobs are visually jarring in a chrome / leather dash like yours is. If you're happy with it great. If not, know there is a threaded nut buried in all that plastic that holds it on, so you can replace it with a polished chrome one if desired. Took me a while to figure that out. I think I needed to shorten the heater control shaft and file a new flat on it though, to put the new knob in the right in / out position on the dash.

Main reason for the post: your engine sounds great and everything sounds like it's working fine. But I thought I spotted your tach sitting at 300 or so when the engine was idling, clearly too low. Am I mis-seeing something in the vid?

[Merciless]

Wow, your metal / foam / leather fab turned out great! Fun when you get the hang of it, I think. Probably my favorite part of the build. I personally think those VintageAir knobs are visually jarring in a chrome / leather dash like yours is. If you're happy with it great. If not, know there is a threaded nut buried in all that plastic that holds it on, so you can replace it with a polished chrome one if desired. Took me a while to figure that out. I think I needed to shorten the heater control shaft and file a new flat on it though, to put the new knob in the right in / out position on the dash.

Main reason for the post: your engine sounds great and everything sounds like it's working fine. But I thought I spotted your tach sitting at 300 or so when the engine was idling, clearly too low. Am I mis-seeing something in the vid?

John,

Thanks for the advice. I will look into it. Thank you also for pointing out the tach reading. You're right. It's actually not reading correctly. I'll have to investigate.

[Merciless]

John,

Thanks for the advice. I will look into it. Thank you also for pointing out the tach reading. You're right. It's actually not reading correctly. I'll have to investigate.

John, I finally got to looking at the tach. You're right. I had not set the rev per signal to 0.5 and it wasn't reading 0 when stopped. That was an easy fix. Thanks.

[Merciless]

When I first started, I only filled the tank about 2 gal because I didn't want a full tank in case things weren't working or if I had to drop the tank, etc. But after a few go-kart laps around the block, I should have filled that tank more. But I didn't and paid for it. It died on the other side of the neighborhood. Had to call the wife to rescue and tow me home. Although, while I was trying to figure out what happened a couple of guys in white pickup stopped and offered to help. They were excited to see a go-kart.

Eventually, I realized that the fuel pump had failed due to low fuel. I ordered a new fuel pump and made sure the tank was at least half full.

[Merciless]

I actually did this back in Dec, but just catching up with the pictures.

I used Prep All and Scotch Brite pads to wipe and clean the seams, but the seams were so rough, they just tore up the pads. I used a metal file and started grinding down the sharp teeth.
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Then I went back to cleaning and there was a lot of wax in those seams. I started using a pick to pick them out. I also use the pick to explore the air pockets. This was in the trunk area.

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Here's another hole I found. I dug in with the pick and found gooey uncured gel coat. I found closed to a dozen holes but most were empty and not filled with gel coat.

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There was also a crack in the fiberglass on the driver's side above the dash where it meets the door. Will have to do some fiberglass repair.

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Then I washed, wiped with Prep All, picked, and repeat 3 more times.

[Merciless]

Next I tackled the louvers. I only noticed later that there were templates in the back of instructions for the louvers, but I didn't know at the time. I ended up measuring the louvers, marking the dimensions on the body and using a washer as a guide for the corner radius. I used a grinder to cut the hole bigger and sanded the edges smooth.

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I used nutserts to attach the bracket to the louver and used the slotted post from McMaster Carr that others have used to mount to the body with HSRF.

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Paint sticks and old broken chopsticks

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[Merciless]

I used a round bit and hollowed out the crack and filled it with 3M HSRF, but the first time I moved it, it cracked again. So I ended up doing 3 layers of fiberglass underneath and filled the top again with HSRF. So far so good.

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After that I used Herculiner to coat the underside.

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[Merciless]

Over the holidays, I had a few sets of friends and family come visit. They brought kids. They were super helpful. They helped me test fit the body-meaning put it on, take it off, put it back on. They must have helped me install and remove the side pipes 3-4 times. They also helped install the tail lights, head lights and signal lights. I was too busy giving instructions that I didn't take any pictures. Their reward: a ride around the block and go home tell their friends that they build a car over the Christmas Break.

[Merciless]

After the armies of helpers left, I worked on fitting the doors. Did a bunch of sanding to trim the doors to fit in the opening. I started with the passenger side door. After a lot of adjustments the door and latch finally fit where it functions. The drivers side was not as easy. One issue was the latch just fell apart. My heart sank when it wouldn't go back together. When in a pickle, ask google - that's my philosophy. It appears to be a common problem. Here's a solution.

https://www.linger.com/cobra/doorlatchrepair.htm

So I kind of followed it and it's working for now.

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[Jeff Kleiner]

I do that to every latch as soon as I take 'em out of the box! Only difference is that I use elevator bolts instead of carriage bolts (heads are already flat and don't have to be ground down).

Jeff

[Merciless]

I do that to every latch as soon as I take 'em out of the box! Only difference is that I use elevator bolts instead of carriage bolts (heads are already flat and don't have to be ground down).

Jeff

Yes, that's a good suggestion. It would be really nice if there was a "best practice" or "lessons learned" for each aspect of the build. I've found that pretty much every mistake I've made has been made before and will probably be made again. That's why I appreciate your bodywork thread. I've read it and will probably read it few more times.