Order Review/Input Help Please? Coyote/IRS vs 306/Moser

[svassh]

Hey Guys

Trying to decide between Coyote/IRS and 306/Moser engine/rear suspension. The engine/transmission prices are from Forte's site so may not be 100% accurate but should be in the ballpark. Really want to do a Coyote and IRS but want to make certain I understand the costs involved. The attached zip file has a spreadsheet with 2 tabs, one configured with the Coyote the other with the 306. On the plus side it looks like the 3 link rear is now standard as opposed to the 4 link.

Appreciate if anyone has some time to review the spreadsheet and let me know of anything I may have missed from the FF order form for either combo. Looks to be about a $7K premium for the Coyote and IRS just want to make sure that is all it is and I'm not missing any major items.

For example not clear but it looks to me like front brakes are included with the complete kit but I need to add rear brakes specific to my rear config?

Also I know sidepipes are included but what do the standard ones look like? Are they black, stainless just not polished etc?

I may in the end look at a used motor for either config to bring my price in but not sure I really save that much $.

Thanks for your help

Scott

[rtbellah]

Hi Scott....I'm still waiting for my kit delivery but I was in your shoes not so long ago. I remember Thinking the IRS was a significant bump in cost so I opted for the 3 link and put that money toward other things (upgrades and aftermarket improvements). I don't plan to track my car and I wasn't too concerned about ride comfort. I also believe the IRS adds a fair amount of complexity that I didn't really want to mess with....alignment and such.
You are correct - the front brakes are included with the complete kit - rear are not. The side pipes come as bare steel....unless you upgrade to SS. My plan was to ceramic coat the pipes to help with the heat. If I decide down the road I want stainless I would go with Gas-n-pipes sidepipes anyway since they are quieter.
Good luck on your adventure!
Rick

[Blitzboy54]

The general wisdom is IRS/Coyote is a superior setup for all kinds of reasons. It is also a significant increase in cost. I ultimately decided to go the 306/solid axle setup. That allowed me to use a T5 which is also a lot less expensive compared to a TKO/TKX that a Coyote requires. I upgraded my brakes and did a number of other things. The budget is hard to plan for. Paint is very expensive and all the nickels and dimes along the way. I will likely be in around 38K when all is said and done and originally thought it would be closer to 30K. If I went IRS/Coyote it would have been a lot more.

Having said that some folks have made budgets and stuck with it. It's all about your personal priorities.

Good luck. This part can be a lot of fun. Try to enjoy it and remember the board is excellent at helping you spend your money.

[Papa]

Why IRS only with Coyote? The selection of the rear and engine are really independent. If I could do it over, I'd definitely opt for the IRS, but would likely stick with a pushrod engine. A 306 with IRS would make a really nice driver.

[svassh]

Why IRS only with Coyote? The selection of the rear and engine are really independent. If I could do it over, I'd definitely opt for the IRS, but would likely stick with a pushrod engine. A 306 with IRS would make a really nice driver.

Thats a valid point there doesn't seem to be a big price difference if any between the IRS and Solid Axle at least not if bought via FF for a Moser anyway. I have an outstanding question into FF though about the IRS:

$2499 16598 - 2015 Mustang-based Independent Rear Suspension Kit with KONI coil-overs, tubular control arms, and CV axles

If I order #16598 do I still need this one under popular options?

$1499 16668 - 2018 Mustang IRS 3.55 Center Section, Spindles, and Hubs

If I need #16598 and 16668 then its a substantial price difference.

[RedRaider58]

You are going to need a center section spindles and hubs and I'm not sure how the brakes fit into the equation. I have a base kit I had to source those as well.

If you are willing to accept the risk there are significant savings to be had by sourcing these components used. I picked up a 35k mile 3.73 with trac-lok for $300 locally, spindles/hubs for $100 on ebay, and '16 mustang brakes for $80 on ebay.

Solid axles can be had for cheap on used market and you can rebuild them. Ford built alot of them, so they are readily available. If you are in Houston or nearby I've even got one with rear brakes I'll sell you that came with my donor.

[Papa]

Thats a valid point there doesn't seem to be a big price difference if any between the IRS and Solid Axle at least not if bought via FF for a Moser anyway. I have an outstanding question into FF though about the IRS:

$2499 16598 - 2015 Mustang-based Independent Rear Suspension Kit with KONI coil-overs, tubular control arms, and CV axles

If I order #16598 do I still need this one under popular options?

$1499 16668 - 2018 Mustang IRS 3.55 Center Section, Spindles, and Hubs

If I need #16598 and 16668 then its a substantial price difference.

You are going to need a center section spindles and hubs and I'm not sure how the brakes fit into the equation. I have a base kit I had to source those as well.

If you are willing to accept the risk there are significant savings to be had by sourcing these components used. I picked up a 35k mile 3.73 with trac-lok for $300 locally, spindles/hubs for $100 on ebay, and '16 mustang brakes for $80 on ebay.

Solid axles can be had for cheap on used market and you can rebuild them. Ford built alot of them, so they are readily available. If you are in Houston or nearby I've even got one with rear brakes I'll sell you that came with my donor.

The $2,499 (16598) is for the IRS frame (different than 3 or 4 link frame), and the control arms, shocks, and other IRS goodies EXCEPT for the center section and spindles/knuckles. As mentioned, you need brakes for any rear end setup you choose to go with. If you look on eBay, there are all sorts of 2015+ Mustang rear clips complete with all the parts you need to finish the IRS, including brakes! The prices range from a few hundred dollars to way too much, so be patient or start calling local savage yards in your area. There are plenty of 2015+ Mustangs in the salvage yards now.

[edwardb]

I agree don't link the IRS and Coyote. Treat them as separate decisions. I've had both solid axle and IRS. The difference is really significant. Ride quality and overall handling is better with IRS. Makes a somewhat stiff and hard sprung car more compliant. All new parts are nice and takes out drama. But if you're willing to do some digging, certainly some money to be saved with salvage parts as others have mentioned. The parts are very robust. So if from a relatively low mileage donor in decent condition, they will serve you well. Some money to be saved with salvage parts for a solid axle too. But those by definition are much older. So a rebuild is almost a sure thing. The Moser axle is nice. But not cheap either.

For engines, comparing a 306 with a Coyote is kind of apples and oranges. The current Coyote version (Gen 3) is approaching 500 hp. Try to buy any new warrantied engine with that kind of power and it's a good value IMO. I've done two Coyote builds and it's awesome how it runs and driving is just that much more fun since the engine is happy whether mild or wild. But many want a more classic pushrod engine, and a well built 306 is a great option. Significantly less HP and torque than a Coyote. But still makes a very lively and very strong running car. I haven't used them, but Blueprint seems to be a solid choice.

Appreciate the budget concerns and planning is good. But I can just about promise you it will cost more than you think. This isn't a cheap venture. Be prepared for that. Good luck.

[svassh]

Thanks all gives me some things to think about. Not trying to do a budget build but I do want to make responsible choices.

[edwardb]

Thanks all gives me some things to think about. Not trying to do a budget build but I do want to make responsible choices.

Yeah in both cases you have things pretty fully featured. Took a couple minutes to look at your spreadsheet with these observations FWIW:

You have headers with cats listed for the Coyote build but not for the 306 build. Reason? Are you under the impression that the Coyote requires cats? It doesn't. Most of us build without them. Usually they are added only if required by local regulation or the builder wants a little extra noise reduction. OK, maybe some also want lower emissions... Personally, I'd opt for the ball flange version instead. Makes installation easier and also a bit cheaper.

Interesting you have 17" wheels for the Coyote build but 15" wheels for the 306 build. I get it some want the 15's for the more period correct look. But hopefully you've done your homework about the limited brake and tire choices with 15's.

Assume you see that with a Coyote power steering option (it's from KRC, top quality) you get everything. Total turnkey. For the 306 version, you'll need to add a pump and whatever bracketry/belts are required for your engine. If you go Blueprint (and perhaps others) that's something you can specify in your order and they'll include it. But will be some added cost compared to the Coyote/KRC setup. So there's a little more difference for you.

As a very general observation, in order to control the up front budget and still maybe get everything you want eventually, think in terms of things that can't be changed (engine, rear suspension) and those things that can be changed or upgraded later. I'd put leather seats in that category for example. I've had both regular and leather Roadster seats. Nothing wrong with the leather ones. But (1) the difference is nearly impossible to see, and (2) the leather is on seating surfaces only. Edges and back are still vinyl. We couldn't tell any difference in the comfort. Chrome roll bar is another possible example. Unfortunately, the quality of the chrome bars is spotty in my experience.

Personally, I'd source my own insulation materials. The Factory Five cost for that is pretty high IMO.

Have to say this -- for a Coyote build, don't leave out the cost of a custom tune. The Gen 3 simply won't be drivable without it. Cost can be anywhere from several hundred dollars to over a thousand depending on what's in your area or if you do a remote tune like Lund. It's not a knock on the engine. It's just that (mainly) the MAF calibration is way off once the stock intake is replaced.

Hope that's helpful.

[GoDadGo]

Remember always that you are building your dream car to suit your taste and your taste alone.
That means no matter what path you take, it will be the perfect path for you.
I personally love the 3-Link, but my pal Donnie prefers his IRS.
The bottom line is you can't make a bad decision.

Good Luck From The Dark Dart Side!

[svassh]

So can anyone give their experience on how the order process goes? I emailed Dan Golub a few times and he's been very helpful and responsive. Last week Dan told me current delivery for new orders is out till October which is ok also as I have a Vette to sell to make room.

How much time do I have to make my final decision on Coyote vs 302 and Sold vs IRS?
Will they call me prior to production for any final order changes?

[Papa]

Nothing in your order is locked down until about two weeks before your kit is ready to ship. Up until then, you can change your order as often as you like. They take a deposit when you order, $1,000 I believe. The balance you will wire to them at about two weeks from your ready to ship date.

[edwardb]

Nothing in your order is locked down until about two weeks before your kit is ready to ship. Up until then, you can change your order as often as you like. They take a deposit when you order, $1,000 I believe. The balance you will wire to them at about two weeks from your ready to ship date.

Right. Very common to change options, configuration, whatever after you make your deposit. I've done it and as they told me, it's very common. You will receive communication a couple weeks before your production date asking you to review and confirm your final order and how to make your final payment. You can wire the funds as Papa said. They'll also take a check. For may last build, I sent a check from my on-line banking account and that worked fine. They'll also take a credit card, but for an added charge.

[Hoooper]

I paid $400ish for the IRS center section, spindles, and hubs with 28k miles on them. If you feel you need new on the diff you might as well get the FFR option as finding it elsewhere new will cost you the same.

[GTBradley]

I’ll not add anything technical here since these gurus have it handled, except to say that I think the bang for the buck regarding IRS makes it a natural choice.

The big thing I suggest considering is the way the engine looks. The Coyote is not like anything else in this regard and if you want that old-style look when you open the hood the Coyote will disappoint, but in every other way it will deliver.

[BradCraig]

If you go the salvage pallet option for IRS, which will give you center section/splindles/brakes you'll find the cost delta compared to 3-link & new straight axle is likely a wash. I bought a salvage pallet for $650 plus the FF IRS option at $2500, $3150 all in. The 3-link/Solid option is $2700 for Moser rear plus $650 for brakes, $3350. Food for thought. I love my IRS on street and track!

As far as the Coyote vs SBF...it's really a preference. Figure out what you really want then look at costs. I personally was kind of second guessing my Coyote decision, until I hit the track and wound it up a bit.

[svassh]

Thanks all, order is in scheduled for October 16th.

Ended up going with complete kit, Coyote and IRS. Thinking I will likely get the IRS and brakes from Forte along with the Coyote/TKX package. Seems a shame to have everything else new and save < $1000 to put in a used center section and brakes. But budget may change by that time.