Braided brake lines from FFR

[Brave Salmon]

Curious if anyone has ever had an issue with the -3 to banjo braided brake lines. I've been fighting a super spongy brake pedal for years and I have isolated the problem to either the calipers (powerstop pbr style nothing fancy) or these braided lines. If I cap off the -3 fitting at the frame on both sides of front, I get a rock hard pedal. Reconnecting either or both lines brings on the spongy pedal. I can't think of a way to cap the banjo fitting so I'm kinda stuck. This is not rocket science and before you ask, yes, the bleeders are up. I don't think it's a caliper problem because these Powerstop units were installed to replace the FFR supplied calipers. That's why I suspect hoses but I see no leakage, no ballooning, and no fluid loss. All my friends say good luck but offer no new suggestions. Help please..
Tom

[first time builder]

Go buy a set of cheap rubber hoses and try it.

[JohnK]

I'd be surprised if braided steel brake lines are causing sponginess without any visible leaks, but it's possible I suppose. Replacement braided stainless lines are only like $20/ea. so rather than spending money on cheap rubber hoses, just buy a couple of new braided lines and see if the problem goes away. For $40, it will definitively answer your question.

[Brave Salmon]

I've never seen them fail either, that's why I'm asking. I know a guy who builds the lines but he's out 'til Monday. I am baffled beyond belief.

[SRGN]

If the calipers were old stock, or stored for a while in a damp area, they could have some pitting in the bore. Even if they don't leak fluid externally, they can allow air to be pulled in when the pedal is released.

[NAZ]

Tom, SS braided hose doesn't expand as easy as the typical OEM type brake hoses, but it still expands. And not all SS braided hose is the same. I've had some that expands as bad as OEM rubber hose if not worse. So I think you're on the right track in troubleshooting the issue and blocking off the banjo fittings to test the hoses -- it's the logical next step. But how to do that?

Easy, if you have the right tool. Here's one: https://www.amazon.com/BrakeQuip-BQ1.../dp/B0791WV8K2

[Brave Salmon]

Thanks Wizard! I spent hours this weekend looking for a way to do exactly this but found nothing. The tool is on order and hopefully will be here before I give up and just have new lines made. I now have the system down to one brake with rf and rear lines capped off. with the kid looking, the best pressure I could get was 500psi of brake pressure at that LF caliper using my SSCP gauge. When I swapped out the braided lines up front and still with only LF in the circuit, I was able to get 1100psi. I will replace the original LF hose tomorrow to see if I can only get 500 again telling me for certain that the line is bad.

[first time builder]

I have had rubber line do exactly what is happening, the inside of the line fails and closes the flow of fluid. It is possible that the liner of the SS hose has failed.

[Brave Salmon]

Well, false alarm. That's what happens when uoy helper is a teenage girl who could care less. Anyway, still with only one caliper hooked up. Other three capped off I get no more 750psi with 15" of idle vacuum. Just don't know to do next. I have a call in to Powerstop tech support for help troubleshooting this damn system. It don't get any more basic than this so I am missing something.

[33fromSD]

I had a similar issue with a driver's side front caliper on the 33 supplied from FFR. Turned out to be that the machined surface on the caliper where the banjo fitting attached had a slight deformity so the crush washer was torque enough to not allow brake fluid to seep out, obut ver time I would lose pressure (soft pedal).

I updated to power stop calipers (bought the red caliper, rotor, pad kit) in the front and swapped out the crush washers provided by FFR to copper crush washers and my issues was resolved. Brake pedal is always firm now.

Jim

[Brave Salmon]

Thanks for the feedback, Jim. These are powerstop red calipers. I replaced the FFR oem fronts trying to fix this problem.

[Brave Salmon]

Update. I spoke to Powerstop Tech support today. Their tech listen patiently to my tale of woe and promptly replied, "You have a bad caliper. The pressure relief valve has failed internal allowing fluid to by-pass the piston with great loss in stopping power and soft pedal". He promised to send me a new set as soon as I can find the sales order for the bad ones from 2019. ( their stuff has a 3 year warranty!) Now, I can find the receipt for button head screws from McMaster-Carr and every friggin' drop of resin but this one for a couple hundred $$ of brakes? Hell no. I still have the boxes the Powerstop stuff came in but not the large outside box with the shipping info. Oh Well, I'll speak to them and see if that will suffice and if not, buy a new set. It'll be a few days but as soon as i get these installed, I will post an update. Or you might read about me in the paper as that crazy ******* who shot his hot rod to death! Thanks for your help.

[NAZ]

Do you mean "proportioning valve" instead of pressure relief?

[Brave Salmon]

Could be, NAZ. He said the problem was in the calipers

[RoadRacer]

Update. I spoke to Powerstop Tech support today. Their tech listen patiently to my tale of woe and promptly replied, "You have a bad caliper. The pressure relief valve has failed internal allowing fluid to by-pass the piston with great loss in stopping power and soft pedal". He promised to send me a new set as soon as I can find the sales order for the bad ones from 2019. ( their stuff has a 3 year warranty!) Now, I can find the receipt for button head screws from McMaster-Carr and every friggin' drop of resin but this one for a couple hundred $$ of brakes? Hell no. I still have the boxes the Powerstop stuff came in but not the large outside box with the shipping info. Oh Well, I'll speak to them and see if that will suffice and if not, buy a new set. It'll be a few days but as soon as i get these installed, I will post an update. Or you might read about me in the paper as that crazy ******* who shot his hot rod to death! Thanks for your help.

Were they not ordered online? You'd have an email order confirmation..

[Brave Salmon]

You'd think so but I can't find it. I've had issues with email folders in recent years. I've calls into Summit, rock auto and Amazon trying to find the order but they all are backed up and can't offer much help. I'll keep looking.

[J R Jones]

Update. I spoke to Powerstop Tech support today. Their tech listen patiently to my tale of woe and promptly replied, "You have a bad caliper. The pressure relief valve has failed internal allowing fluid to by-pass the piston with great loss in stopping power and soft pedal". He promised to send me a new set as soon as I can find the sales order for the bad ones from 2019. ( their stuff has a 3 year warranty!) Now, I can find the receipt for button head screws from McMaster-Carr and every friggin' drop of resin but this one for a couple hundred $$ of brakes? Hell no. I still have the boxes the Powerstop stuff came in but not the large outside box with the shipping info. Oh Well, I'll speak to them and see if that will suffice and if not, buy a new set. It'll be a few days but as soon as i get these installed, I will post an update. Or you might read about me in the paper as that crazy ******* who shot his hot rod to death! Thanks for your help.

BS, along with "Thanks" and "Like" we should have a "WTF" choice. This Powerstop reply makes no sense.
NAZ's plug tool is perfect for troubleshooting but lacking patience I would do the same thing with the seal rings, washers and a bolt.
As a sequence of tests you might start at the master cylinder and work downstream (R&L) until you find the problem. You just have to bleed each configuration by cracking the fitting. Messy.
jim

[Brave Salmon]

Helpful, Jim. You criticize the post as BS and then go on to say I should do what I have already documented as being done. Sorry if I was unclear about what Powerstop told me was the issue. Suffice to say their opinion is that the calipers have failed due to an internal problem. That means INSIDE THE CALIPER if that makes easier for you to comprehend. As far as your bolt and washer suggestion, I tried it, it don't work.

[J R Jones]

Sorry, BS is just an abbreviation for Brave Salmon.
I have not ever experienced a caliper with a pressure relief device in it. Just bores, pistons and seals. You cannot bypass fluid pressure without the pressure going somewhere, it does not relieve outside the caliper and there is no return line.
A spring loaded chamber could work, but inside the caliper? Never saw one.
Why would a manufacturer do that anyway?
Being a little bruital, I do not believe expanding or swelling brake lines would result in the magnitude of soft pedal you describe. IMHO you have unbled air in the system.
OTOH flex lines swell more than hard lines, therefore the length of flex line should be as short as practical.
jim

[Brave Salmon]

Yeah,I agree totally that this is weird stuff but Powerstop said it, not me. I have heard of calipers that had crummy seals allowing fluid to bypass the pistons but always thought you'd see some leaks. Not so in my case. My master cylinder setup from Whitby has 4 ports, 2 front and two rear. Both rear ports are capped off and the reservoir is full. One front port is capped, and m/c was bled for at least 20 minutes after bubbles were gone just to make sure it was air free.. from that one remaining port the line goes to the front t and to the-3 adapters at the frame left and right. I have -3 cap on one side leaving only one caliper and hose in the circuit. Bled thoroughly, I cannot get a firm pedal, period. Swapped to caliper on other side, bled, and same exact problem. M/C replaced, brake hoses replaced, booster to m/c pin adjusted to .020" with digital caliper and adjustment tool (H shaped arrangement). No proportioning valve, no residual pressure valves, no difference if motor is running. So, what's the fix?

[Brave Salmon]

Note: I finally found the order info. I order so much Amazon stuff I gave up trying keep all the confirmations. When I searched I used "powerstop" as keyword I got nothing.. when I searched for "brake" the first thing that popped up was the Power Stop brake kit. Damn computers. Now I remember why I've always despised programmers. Now, just to get Power Stop to replace these guys.

[J R Jones]

Brave Salmon, We must clarify my interpretation.
"Both rear ports are capped off and the reservoir is full." You capped the rear ports on the M/C? Front of M/C body or rear?

This may seem counter intuitive, and you should cross check me by calling Whitby:
The M/C has two pistons to isolate the front system from the rear system for safety.
The ports on the front of the M/C are to be plumbed to the rear axle, usually with one hard line to a "T" and hard lines to RR and LR frame, and flex lines out to the calipers. (you have four wheel discs I assume)

The aft ports on the M/C are to be hard line plumbed to the RF and LF frame, and flex lines out to the calipers. In your case you would not need a "T" for the fronts, you could run hard lines to RF and LF directly from the M/C.

Check Whitby and if they agree, plumb it as I suggest and bleed for effect.
jim

[Brave Salmon]

Ok, you're still missing something here so I'll try again. Original problem: brakes would stop car but not well and with soft pedal from day one when I built the kit. One line from master cylinder to rear brake line to a T to lines to frame and then soft lines to Calipers. Front exactly same way. I could not lock up any repeat any of the 4 wheels when I stomped hard on the brakes. I bled the m/c and Calipers a million times with no improvement. I played with balance bar, talked to Wilwood, ffr (Tony Z), and anyone else who would listen. I've been driving it but never felt real safe so I decided to try and fix it a couple years ago. I ordered Whitbys power brake setup and installed it per their instructions. Same problems so I called Jeff at Whitby and discussed the problem. It was installed correctly and plumbed correctly per Jeff. I then replaced the front brakes with new Power Stop z23 Calipers, rotors, and pads, SAME PROBLEM. I kept driving it and kept trying things until I finally decided to park it til I could fix it last month. That's when I decided to cut the problemin half and isolate it to front or rear systems. The "Corvette" style master has 4 ports. 2 fronts are common and 2 rears are common. You can see through them. Whitby says fronts can go to either chamber, front or rear since it is a disc/disc system, not old style disc/drum with front brakes off rear port and rears off front port. Regardless, I have run them both ways on this car and it made NO DIFFERENCE. Now, I could be wrong but I cannot find a positive instruction online that clarifies a "rule" for which goes where. If you have one, send it along.

To isolate the problem, I disconnected the rear line from the m/c and plugged the port. The other port on the rear was already blocked with a plug. Stomp on brakes and SAME PROBLEM. Reversed the processed by plugging front, hooking up rears, bleeding rears and stomp on pedal. Got a great hard pedal. Tells me softness is coming from fronts. Am I wrong or did I do something incorrect?
I then cut problem in half again by capping off the soft line at the frame going to the RF caliper. SAME PROBLEM telling me problem was in LF brake/hose assy. Simple huh? Well to "prove" it, I them capped the LF line at the frame and hooked the RF back up. Guess what? SAME PROBLEM! That's when I bought a new master cylinder thinking it must be bad. Wrong. I then started asking forum for help. I replaced both front lines with new ones that did not help. At that point, I was down to having 2 bad Calipers. Nothing else made sense. Am I wrong? That takes us back to my call into PowerStop and their decision to replace both Calipers under warranty. That's the current situation other than to mention Calipers won't be available until end of frigging October. Any other suggestions are welcome but please note that the lines were carefully bled after each and every step above to ensure no air was present. I could go down to parts store and buy 2 new Calipers and I still might. For now I'm gonna go fishing.

[NAZ]

Hope you catch something and not just drown worms. Have a couple cold ones while you're at it.

Let us know how the soft pedal issue goes once you get the new calipers. As for not being able to lock up the brakes, I may have some ideas if that problem persists after the soft pedal issue is cured.

Good luck.

[J R Jones]

Brave Salmon, You certainly have exercised several steps and configuration, congratulations on determination.
As stated you have isolated F & R and got a hard pedal with rears. You did not mention locking up the rears which I would expect. Did they lock?

With experience in two wheel development (Harley Davidson) I had to make brakes work with bizarre M/C locations and angles. Then there were integrated systems (F & R) and anti-dive which fed off brake line pressure.

Anyway:
There were configurations where brake fluid went past the air bubbles, kind-of like a reverse sink trap, it was an air trap.
The short-cut to bleeding the air was cracking an in-line fitting at or near the high point. In most instances that was the flare-nut fitting where the brake line was attached to the M/C. Hold a rag under the fitting, push the pedal and crack the fitting as if it was a bleeder. Air will hiss and bubble if it is there.
With that in mind, could it be that your brake line routing has a spot higher than the M/C? That would trap air and it would be hard to get it out.

Keep in mind you already tried two sets of calipers and still have the problem? I am not optimistic about another set.
This can be corrected, it just takes more determination.
jim

[J R Jones]

NAZ did ask earlier about a proportioning valve but I did not see your answer.
In front engine RWD applications it is located in the rear line to modulate the rear brakes and minimize lock-ups.
(In the 818 mid engine RWD the proportioning valve is in the front line, and I question that configuration.)
"Some" proportioning valves are in "T" brake line fitting.

NAZ's question is a good one.
Another wild card: Do you have a brake light pressure switch in the front brake line?
jim

[Brave Salmon]

Jim, that is what i did after I opened any of the fittings to cap and uncap for testing. Hold a rag under the fitting and have the pedal pressed slowly to make sure you have fluid and do not introduce any air into the open line. None of the lines are higher than the M/C although I have never been a big fan of the way the book tells you to route the rear line in a big loop above the rear end and then back down to the frame.

[Brave Salmon]

There's no proportioning valve in this system. nothing but lines and fittings. The brake pressure switch is in the rear lines at the master cylinder using the port opposite the line going to the brakes. Remember, its a 4 port M/C so very convenient to put the switch in the unused port. Since i began testing I have pulled the switch and plugged the port as mentioned above. And yes, i understand I have had two sets of calipers in the system and have always had this problem. I also agree that swapping them out again is a shot in the dark but until something better comes up, I'm stuck. Short of re-plumbing the entire system, there ain't a lot left to swap. thanks for the help..

[J R Jones]

This certainly challenges sanity; why does logic not prevail? Similar suggestions that you likely have explored:

Have you dead-headed the M/C? Capped the "out" bosses? Hard pedal?
One side at a time:
When you connect the hard line and dead-head it, the pedal is still hard?
When you connect the flex line and dead-head it, the pedal is still hard?
If the pedal is soft at any stage, bleed the dead-head cap.
Obviously the pedal has been soft with calipers plumbed

Have you tried un-bolting the calipers, block the pistons in retracted position, raise the caliper as high as the flex line permits and bleed?
I have had to tap my calipers with a hard mallet to dislodge bubbles from the chamber walls to rise to the bleeder. Tapping ia a little cathartic.
jim
Sorry if you are ahead of me, I am grasping for ideas.

[Brave Salmon]

Thanks again Jim. Tomorrow I will go through your list step by step so I remember exactly what results I get. i know I've done most of what you suggest but my old mind is losing it fast on this problem. Maybe the tapping is needed on my head. Baffled beyond belief.

[Brave Salmon]

Ok, still no progress but I'm getting closer, I hope, we'll maybe? I got out the original FFR calipers started with years ago. I wanted to verify that the original stuff was bad. To make it simple, I hooked up that caliper to the braided hose with banjo and washers. Then I hooked the an3 end directly to a banjo fitting on the front port of the master cylinder. All other ports are blocked. Got help and bled that short little line and caliper thoroughly. With air out, press on pedal and it goes to the floor with moderate effort just like always. Ok, I'll swap this arrangement to one of the rear ports and bleed it again. Same results. It should be hard as a rock. Ok, try all above again but with one of the power stop calipers. Same results. I am obviously doing something wrong. I believe the linkage between the pedal assy (remember, it is Whitby`s design), the booster and the master is a solid mechanical shot into the master. The power brake slug is in place and there is just a bit of clearance between the booster pin and that slug. I'm going to reconnect all the lines back to the master, front and rear, and bleed all four an3 fittings at the frame mounts to take all 4 calipers and flex hoses out of the equation. I'll not proceed beyond that point until I have a rock hard pedal to prove the m/c and lines are air free.

Now, Jeff over at Whitbys responded to my help request with a cryptic note that there may be a problem with the welded pedal box mount on some 33s with this quote: "we have seen 4 bolt hole patterns from FFR on the pedal box mounting bracket. It may be necessary to redrill those to get the correct pedal travel and location". I've asked for clarification but don't have it yet. What can this have to do with anything? Does anyone reading this story have ANY feedback about the Whitby system that may shed some light on the matter? I did check with Mike Emerson before going this route and he had positive comments.

[Brave Salmon]

An update: Whitby says pedal box issue above had to do with alignment so does not help. Since I'm still waiting on calipers which I doubt will help, I have been going at it from the beginning. No change but some interesting facts have shown up. Bought a Motive pressure bleeder system and adapter to fit the master cylinder and a gallon of DOT 3 fluid.
Hooked it up and after making sure I had no leaks, pumped it up to 15psi, cracked r/r bleed screw and pumped about10 ozs into a bottle.. I got a few bubbles initially but nothing after first few ozs. Repeated this all around keeping an eye on the gauge to keep pressures up. It made NO improvement in pedal firmness. There is no air in this system, period. Going further, I pulled off the m/c again and measured the stroke length of the booster pin.. With full depression of pedal, booster pin extends only .747". Master cylinder max stroke is 1.375". Is my problem that the master is not getting enough travel to give me a firm pedal before I bottom out? What should I try next?? As always, any thoughts are very welcome. Thanks, Tom


So how do I get more travel? I can raise the pedal as far as possible but that puts it way up there where it is uncomfortable to use. The Whitby pedal has a ratio of 7:1 not the 4:1/5:1 google tells me is proper for boosted brakes. Whitby tells me hundreds of these kits are working perfectly in their builds and I believe him.

[RoadRacer]

Sorry I haven't read a lot of this, but I do want to say that I bled my car multiple times the conventional way, but only finally achieved success when I bought a pressure bleeder and bled backwards from the caliper to the MC. Is that what you did?

For me, air came out of MC as soon as I did this.. I'm assuming that I just could not pump fast enough the get air down to the caliper before it floated back up the line.

[Brave Salmon]

Thanks RR, I have not reverse bled from the calipers to the m/c with pressure. How did you do it? Everything I've read discourages this but I am game if you can direct me. I have the Motive bleeder and can adapt hose as necessary. What about the over flow? Did u start with low fluid in reservoirs?

[J R Jones]

Brave Salmon, I do not have experience with bad brake boosters but what you have documented does not seem right.
If I understand your post, your M/Cyl piston travel is 1.375 but your booster rod is pushing it 0.747? At 7:1 that means your pedal pad is traveling 5.23 to the floor.
I assume this is a vacuum booster? Did you measure the booster travel with the engine idling?

What is your 7:1 pedal pad travel to the floor?
4:1 would be more rod travel. At 5.23 pedal pad travel you would get 1.31 rod travel.

One possibility is that your booster net travel is bad and you have not been getting enough boosted travel.

Do you have a longer brake rod for unboosted brakes? Can you try that for bleeding without the booster?
jim

[RoadRacer]

Thanks RR, I have not reverse bled from the calipers to the m/c with pressure. How did you do it? Everything I've read discourages this but I am game if you can direct me. I have the Motive bleeder and can adapt hose as necessary. What about the over flow? Did u start with low fluid in reservoirs?

Yes start by draining (sucking out) most fluid from mc. Then use pressured reverse bleed procedure like this https://www.brakebleeder.com/solutio.../how-it-works/

It worked for me..I used this tool, nothing fancy. Capri Tools CP21029 Vacuum Brake Bleeder https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OM751EC..._Sg15N7yjjJgVw

[Brave Salmon]

Yes start by draining (sucking out) most fluid from mc. Then use pressured reverse bleed procedure like this https://www.brakebleeder.com/solutio.../how-it-works/

It worked for me..I used this tool, nothing fancy. Capri Tools CP21029 Vacuum Brake Bleeder https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OM751EC..._Sg15N7yjjJgVw

rr, THIS IS A VACUUM BLEEDER. i HAVE A SIMILAR UNIT WHICH i HAVE USED WITH NO IMPROVEMENT. I WILL MODIFY THE MOTIVE PRESSURE SETUP TO ADAPT TO THE BLEED SCREWS AND GIVE IT A TRY AFTER i FIND A SHUT OFF VALVE LOCALLY. HONESTLY, I'M NOT EXPECTING MUCH CHANGE BUT AT THIS POINT, i UP FOR ANYTHING. THANKS MAN.

[RoadRacer]

You’re right I have both types. It’s been a while, but it was definitely pushing it up to mc that was my fix. Sorry for the misdirect.

[RoadRacer]

I found my original post.. https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...l=1#post457949

[NAZ]

An update: There is no air in this system, period. Going further, I pulled off the m/c again and measured the stroke length of the booster pin.. With full depression of pedal, booster pin extends only .747". Master cylinder max stroke is 1.375".

If I'm understanding this correctly, your full pedal travel is only moving the M/C piston ~50% of its stroke. That's not good. So, how much free play do you have in the booster push rod before it contacts the piston? The rod should be adjustable for length so you can minimize free play.

Or are you saying that the total travel of the booster push rod is only .747"? I'm getting hung up on the comment "extends" as in something extends some dimension past a point of reference regardless of total travel. If .747" is the total travel of the booster push rod then you need to figure out how to lengthen that travel to at least equal the total stroke of the M/C.

The caliper piston seals retract the pistons when the brake pedal is released and there is a volume of fluid that is pushed back toward the M/C. When the pedal is pushed the M/C piston must move enough to displace the amount of fluid that was pushed back toward the M/C before any pressure can be built in the system. If your push rod total travel is less than the amount the M/C piston must travel to build pressure you will never have a firm pedal.