Bob's Daytona Build

[LateApex]

I'm off to a late start posting bits about my build. I realized this morning how much I enjoy reading about and learning from others' projects. Time for me to ante up methinks :-)

I have started with ...

Type 65 complete kit
Powder-coated chassis
Platinum gauges
Mounts for a SBF
FFR Headers
Hydraulic clutch
FFR leather seats and carpeting
3-link rear suspension
Battery cut-off switch
Front sway bar
Nose scoops
17" Halibrand wheels
Wilwood Brakes
Moser 8.8" rear axle.

Blueprint / Marshall Engines 347
TKX and mid-shift option
Eight-Stack Systems Weber-style EFI

I placed my order on 3/19/2021
I received my kit via Stewart on 9/22/2021
Various parts have been trickling in since

As many have also, I have swizzled the build sequence to keep things moving in the face of back-ordered or missing parts. This, in a funny way, has been kinda rewarding. Instead of following the script, I have had to think a bit more about what I am doing :-)

Just a couple more bits needed before I have a rolling chassis and the engine / tranny in place. I am looking forward to this so I can free up some of the shop space for other vehicles before the snow flies!

I'll follow this intro up with some notes about the particulars of my build, and probably more than my share of requests for advice

Happy Holidays to you all!

[LateApex]

Perhaps I should also mention the things that are not in my build (reading between the lines, if you will ...)

No heater / AC
No side windows

Years of riding motorcycles has conditioned me to the environment, and living in Colorado implies maybe more than my share of fair day rides :-)

[Skuzzy]

I think we have all been jumping around in the build manual. Keeps it exciting.

I am envious of those who have enough fair weather days to enjoy a ride without A/C. When a good portion of your good weather is dominated by 100F+ temperatures (with 65%+ humidity), A/C is a must. Even when I rode motorcycles it was hard. Either give in to wind burn, or put on the long sleeves and sweat like there is no tomorrow. Either way you get really dehydrated.

[LateApex]

A side effect of waiting for parts is requirements creep. That is, items I have added to the build. Here are a few:

Dead Pedal Kit
Bimat and Quadmat passenger compartment insulation
Zero Clearance firewall insulation
External Battery Posts
Wilwood balance bar adjuster
Russ Thompson's turn signal stalk
Period Correct front license plate holder
Alpine touch screen deck with Polk speakers fore and aft
Peter Brock's coupe side mirrors
Leather and 1/8" high density foam for the dash
In-tank fuel pump for the EFI

More in this category to come I am sure - Haha

[LateApex]

I think we have all been jumping around in the build manual. Keeps it exciting.

I am envious of those who have enough fair weather days to enjoy a ride without A/C. When a good portion of your good weather is dominated by 100F+ temperatures (with 65%+ humidity), A/C is a must. Even when I rode motorcycles it was hard. Either give in to wind burn, or put on the long sleeves and sweat like there is no tomorrow. Either way you get really dehydrated.

We have more of our share of sunny days. One reason for the coupe is to keep the sun off my balding pate - Hah.

On the flip side, I do not intend to put snow tires on the coupe :-)

[cgundermann]

Look forward to following along.

Chris

[Jacob McCrea]

You should be mostly fine in Colorado with no heat, A/C or side windows. I have about 100 miles in 35-degree weather so far and haven't felt like windows or heat are absolutely necessary. You'll get tired of other aspects of the car before you get tired of the cool breeze from no windows, and there's plenty of heat coming off the engine to keep your legs warm at low temps. We'll see about A/C when it hits 90 degrees!

[LateApex]

You should be mostly fine in Colorado with no heat, A/C or side windows. I have about 100 miles in 35-degree weather so far and haven't felt like windows or heat are absolutely necessary. You'll get tired of other aspects of the car before you get tired of the cool breeze from no windows, and there's plenty of heat coming off the engine to keep your legs warm at low temps. We'll see about A/C when it hits 90 degrees!

Thinking hard right now about how to ventilate foot boxes, perhaps making hood scoops functional, and in general at ventilation through the cabin. Considering venting through the duck tail as was done in the originals.

Thx for the feedback!

[LateApex]

You should be mostly fine in Colorado with no heat, A/C or side windows. I have about 100 miles in 35-degree weather so far and haven't felt like windows or heat are absolutely necessary. You'll get tired of other aspects of the car before you get tired of the cool breeze from no windows, and there's plenty of heat coming off the engine to keep your legs warm at low temps. We'll see about A/C when it hits 90 degrees!

I am curious about the other aspects of the car you find tiring ...

[Jacob McCrea]

I have a Gen 2 Type 65, which I just got on the road. The car is a lot of fun but it's pretty obnoxious and clunky to drive in some respects, especially in traffic and urban areas:

The exhaust - what little there is - seems pointed at your ears and earplugs are necessary if you value your hearing.
I added a fair amount of soundproofing (Eastwood's self-adhesive product) but apparently not enough, and I should have done the inside of the transmission tunnel, and under the trunk floor. I don't think you could overdo it in terms of soundproofing efforts if you want to drive any real distances. The vibrations of the aluminum panels with no soundproofing gets old. There's a little vibration from the seat being solidly mounted to the floor and roll cage, especially with a lumpy idle in a 302 Windsor. You don't forget that it's first and foremost a race car, and one based on +50-year-old technology.
With the shoulder harnesses tight, turning your upper body to look back and out the hatch glass to see is impossible.
The fuel pump in the tank is loud, and so is the coil or something else in the ignition system, the end result of which is it sounds like two tiny turbine engines front and back, in addition to the exhaust.
I have really stiff suspension (750lb springs up front, 450lb in the back) and 19" wheels. It turns like a cat on carpet but you do feel every bump!
On my car the early-style IRS is solidly bolted to the frame and the seat may as well be solidly bolted to the differential because you hear and feel about everything it does.

Overall it is a massive amount of fun and it'll give you a grin from ear to ear, but many aspects of the machine - or at least mine - are obnoxious. I suppose I could compare it to the sport bikes I have long ridden, but honestly the best comparison is the Enstrom 280C I fly: loud, very sensitive controls, you smell the fuel and exhaust, you feel the machine as much as you see what it's doing, it commands your full attention and will kill you if you aren't giving it that attention, but still more fun than anyone should be allowed to have. You'll love it.

[LateApex]

I have a Gen 2 Type 65, which I just got on the road. The car is a lot of fun but it's pretty obnoxious and clunky to drive in some respects, especially in traffic and urban areas:

The exhaust - what little there is - seems pointed at your ears and earplugs are necessary if you value your hearing.
I added a fair amount of soundproofing (Eastwood's self-adhesive product) but apparently not enough, and I should have done the inside of the transmission tunnel, and under the trunk floor. I don't think you could overdo it in terms of soundproofing efforts if you want to drive any real distances. The vibrations of the aluminum panels with no soundproofing gets old. There's a little vibration from the seat being solidly mounted to the floor and roll cage, especially with a lumpy idle in a 302 Windsor. You don't forget that it's first and foremost a race car, and one based on +50-year-old technology.
With the shoulder harnesses tight, turning your upper body to look back and out the hatch glass to see is impossible.
The fuel pump in the tank is loud, and so is the coil or something else in the ignition system, the end result of which is it sounds like two tiny turbine engines front and back, in addition to the exhaust.
I have really stiff suspension (750lb springs up front, 450lb in the back) and 19" wheels. It turns like a cat on carpet but you do feel every bump!
On my car the early-style IRS is solidly bolted to the frame and the seat may as well be solidly bolted to the differential because you hear and feel about everything it does.

Overall it is a massive amount of fun and it'll give you a grin from ear to ear, but many aspects of the machine - or at least mine - are obnoxious. I suppose I could compare it to the sport bikes I have long ridden, but honestly the best comparison is the Enstrom 280C I fly: loud, very sensitive controls, you smell the fuel and exhaust, you feel the machine as much as you see what it's doing, it commands your full attention and will kill you if you aren't giving it that attention, but still more fun than anyone should be allowed to have. You'll love it.

Thank you Jacob. I appreciate your thoughts!

I am applying Bimat, Quadmat and Zero Clearance heat and sound insulation on all cabins surfaces in various ways. The there is the carpeting ... I want the vehicle acoustically "damp", and the firewall / foot boxes / tranny tunnel are getting that extra layer of reflective heat protection.

I'll look at pipes / baffles after I have woken up the neighborhood. And a gross of ear plugs are on my Christmas wish list :-)

[LateApex]

I have a Gen 2 Type 65, which I just got on the road. The car is a lot of fun but it's pretty obnoxious and clunky to drive in some respects, especially in traffic and urban areas:

The exhaust - what little there is - seems pointed at your ears and earplugs are necessary if you value your hearing.
I added a fair amount of soundproofing (Eastwood's self-adhesive product) but apparently not enough, and I should have done the inside of the transmission tunnel, and under the trunk floor. I don't think you could overdo it in terms of soundproofing efforts if you want to drive any real distances. The vibrations of the aluminum panels with no soundproofing gets old. There's a little vibration from the seat being solidly mounted to the floor and roll cage, especially with a lumpy idle in a 302 Windsor. You don't forget that it's first and foremost a race car, and one based on +50-year-old technology.
With the shoulder harnesses tight, turning your upper body to look back and out the hatch glass to see is impossible.
The fuel pump in the tank is loud, and so is the coil or something else in the ignition system, the end result of which is it sounds like two tiny turbine engines front and back, in addition to the exhaust.
I have really stiff suspension (750lb springs up front, 450lb in the back) and 19" wheels. It turns like a cat on carpet but you do feel every bump!
On my car the early-style IRS is solidly bolted to the frame and the seat may as well be solidly bolted to the differential because you hear and feel about everything it does.

Overall it is a massive amount of fun and it'll give you a grin from ear to ear, but many aspects of the machine - or at least mine - are obnoxious. I suppose I could compare it to the sport bikes I have long ridden, but honestly the best comparison is the Enstrom 280C I fly: loud, very sensitive controls, you smell the fuel and exhaust, you feel the machine as much as you see what it's doing, it commands your full attention and will kill you if you aren't giving it that attention, but still more fun than anyone should be allowed to have. You'll love it.

Jacob, I want to ask you about your choice of springs. Why the 750 / 450 combination? My sense has been that choice of shocks (and various tweaking there) has had perhaps more significant impact on vehicle ride and handling. I am wondering what drove you to those spring weights. Are you also running sway bars, for example?

[LateApex]

Been a mish-mash of activity lately, mostly focused on hard lines, wiring and dash design and fabrication. Here is shot of Russ Thompson's turn signal stalk:

IMG_1234.JPG

One thing I found interesting is how straightforward it is to re-purpose the Hot Rod column harness to the hook up the various bits needed for this turn signal stalk.

[LateApex]

Here is a view of my gauge panel. Did a carbon fiber layup over the aluminum sheet ...

Dash Design.JPG

[LateApex]

Footbox is almost done - waiting on a gas pedal :-)

IMG_1245.JPG

[LateApex]

Couldn't resist a little dry fitting. Waiting on engine and tranny mounts ...

Alien.JPG

[Jacob McCrea]

"Jacob, I want to ask you about your choice of springs. Why the 750 / 450 combination? My sense has been that choice of shocks (and various tweaking there) has had perhaps more significant impact on vehicle ride and handling. I am wondering what drove you to those spring weights. Are you also running sway bars, for example?"

Sorry for the slow response; much going on these days. I picked components and otherwise built the car to be a track car first, everything else second. The kit came with 500lb springs up front and 750lb springs in the back (it has the T-Bird IRS system, with much modification). What I recall is that Karen S. and others who were racing the Gen. 1 and 2 coupes had installed stiffer springs up front (maybe 750lb, you'd have to dig back through some old build threads to check). So, I just installed the rear springs in the front.

Out back, the shock location was moved from inboard of the frame rails to outboard; this mod used the same shocks as the 3-link system. I forget who said that 450lb springs in the back was a good fit with the 750s up front, but that's what I heard and that's what I did. I will say that when I had it aligned and corner-weighted by Mark D. in Hershey this year, he suggested changing to 350lb springs in the back if I got tired of the stiff ride.

The spring rates feel balanced but I have so little experience with the car, and with race cars generally, that I wouldn't put much faith in my opinion. There is a Nascar-style sway bar in the front (a 1' hollow Schroeder if I recall correctly) with custom mounts and hand-bent arms (bent with heat and a press, of course!). No sway bar in the rear and no idea if it needs one for the track. It sure doesn't need one for the road.

Sway Bar Arm 1.jpg
Sway Bar Arm 2.jpg
IRS 1.JPG
IRS 2.JPG
IRS 3.JPG
IRS 4.JPG
IRS 5.JPG
IRS 6.JPG

[LateApex]

Monday ... back to the shop!

Working on the "behind the gauge panel" wiring for the RT turn signal stalk. I am making use of these terminal blocks: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CLY5N9T...roduct_details. The fifth one will be my 12V buss. I have wired in the hot rod harness. Still have to connect up a couple of relays. But the idea is that with a gauge panel secured by Riv Nuts, I can easily access this circuitry. Let's see, what else is maybe interesting in this picture ....

You will see a hole where my Alpine deck will sit and one cutout for a forward speaker. I know. You are asking, "What the heck are you doing installing a sound system? Aren't you going to have enough already?" Let's say "Rock and Roll" :-)

There is also the spot where I have installed the Wilwood balance bar adjustment knob - bright blue - hard to miss in this shot.

I trimmed down the RT mounting tube by ~ 1/2" to get the hub closer to the dash. This is not yet pressed flush, but when all is done, I think all the clearances will be correct.

You may also note I am waiting for a gas pedal to call the foot box "complete"

Tranny tunnel next ...

Hope you all had a great Christmas holiday, and didn't spend all of it in your shop ;-)

Dash wiring.JPG

[B Campbell]

I see your going to add the Wilwood remote balance bar adjuster. what side of the balance bar are you thinking of connecting the adjustment cable? I`m mocking mine up now and if I connect to the Drivers side of the bar it looks like it will interfere with the top of the clutch pedal. the Engine bay side seems to be ok but the cable housing looks like it may contact a frame bracket on that side during the pedal travel.

[MSumners]

I used this on the roadster, not sure about the coupe but may work

I see your going to add the Wilwood remote balance bar adjuster. what side of the balance bar are you thinking of connecting the adjustment cable? I`m mocking mine up now and if I connect to the Drivers side of the bar it looks like it will interfere with the top of the clutch pedal. the Engine bay side seems to be ok but the cable housing looks like it may contact a frame bracket on that side during the pedal travel.

[LateApex]

I see your going to add the Wilwood remote balance bar adjuster. what side of the balance bar are you thinking of connecting the adjustment cable? I`m mocking mine up now and if I connect to the Drivers side of the bar it looks like it will interfere with the top of the clutch pedal. the Engine bay side seems to be ok but the cable housing looks like it may contact a frame bracket on that side during the pedal travel.

I have it on the left side. I am lifting it just a smidgen (via zip tie). I do not believe there will be any interference

Balance Bar.JPG

[Rian_Colorado]

Hey Bob - great thread so far! What part of Colorado are you in?

Rian (In Longmont)

[LateApex]

Hey Bob - great thread so far! What part of Colorado are you in?

Rian (In Longmont)

Hi Rian - I am in Niwot. Drop me a note anytime you need an extra hand :-)

[LateApex]

First box of the New Year - Yay!

Rear Brakes.JPG

A little trial and error: The Moser 8.8" has a 2.5 offset (i.e.: flip the flange bracket ...) FWIW

[Rian_Colorado]

Nice that we're like 10 minutes from one another - lol
Damnit, I was SURE I was gonna have the only Daytona in Boulder county too!
Jealous that you got your brakes - still waiting for mine (and the Koni's.... and.... like.... EVERYTHING else.)
Let me know if you wanna grab lunch or a beer sometime.
R

[JohnMac]

Thinking hard right now about how to ventilate foot boxes, perhaps making hood scoops functional, and in general at ventilation through the cabin. Considering venting through the duck tail as was done in the originals.

Thx for the feedback!

We used the big hood scoop and cut a 3” hole in the left side of the hood, cut another matching 3” hole in the top of foot box and placed a foam covered flange on the tube. Haven’t driven yet but also made a blank to cover flange when not needed. The original has a similar setup with the tube into the left side of the foot box.

[LateApex]

We used the big hood scoop and cut a 3” hole in the left side of the hood, cut another matching 3” hole in the top of foot box and placed a foam covered flange on the tube. Haven’t driven yet but also made a blank to cover flange when not needed. The original has a similar setup with the tube into the left side of the foot box.

Hi John - What happens when it rains? Are you scooping water off the hood into the foot box? Do you have a gate valve or some such to close the vent when not needed?

[LateApex]

So ... Brake line puzzle solved. It had my brow knitted.

Front brake hard lines are reasonably easy to locate and pin down. Rear brake lines are a bit trickier.

Background: I am using the kit-provided 3/16" Edelmann hard lines. Rear brakes are Wilwood variety on a Moser 3-link rear end.

I took the rear brake line from the pedal box to the top corner of the DS foot box upper sheet metal, through to the tranny tunnel and along the upper DS tunnel and then DOWN to the 1.5" frame cross-member below and in front of the snout of the differential, where I placed the "T. There is not a whole lot of slack in the provided hard lines from the "T" (8" on the DS, 20" on the PS), so care must be taken to locate the braided line mounts. These I placed on the "inside" of the 1.5" frame members that extend from the top of the shocks to the tranny tunnel. This all "just" fits.

REar brake lines.JPG

As an aside, the Wilwood flex lines come with a straight fitting at one end and a 90 degree fitting at the other. You can see that I placed the 90 degree fitting at the braided line mount. I believe this gives a bit more slack in the flexible lines to accommodate suspension travel.

A couple of brake line clamps to install, tightening of AN fittings, and plumbing is done :-)


Another little bit learned along the way ....

Measure brake caliper mounting spacers with a micrometer. They are not the width specified in the Wilwood documentation (both front and rear), and in my case, they are not consistent. This nit aside, I am really quite impressed with the Wilwood kit. Now, if I could get my front axle nuts (and a few other POL items), without going to NAPA to spend $20 on a readily available Dorman part, I could actually call brake installation "done". Bleeding aside :-)

[JohnMac]

Hi John - What happens when it rains? Are you scooping water off the hood into the foot box? Do you have a gate valve or some such to close the vent when not needed?

RAIN… we’re not planning on driving it in the rain but I have done it on a motorcycle down in the Blueridge area of NC. It’s not fun but if you’re dressed properly it’s not bad. As for the coupe, George, the co-conspritor and master fabricator, cut a piece of aluminum to fit over the foot box tube to keep mice, squirrels and chipmunks from nesting… btw, his cat brought a chipmunk into his house and it’s now found a home behind the refrigerator! The cat’s given up on trying to catch him or her!

[LateApex]

Haha!

I've spent a fair amount of time on bikes in all sorts of weather too. I had posted a query about weep holes for the foot boxes - still haven't settled on that design point. Between the open window design, the rear side window "scoops", and any foot box vents, I figure that there may be cases (like Le Man), where the coupe can fill to the door sills :-)

Russ Thompson had a foot box vent kit for the Gen 1 Coupe. If I recall our conversation correctly, in his personal design, he scooped air into a box (or reservoir) through a gate valve, which was then routed to the foot box. This approach would allow for water to be captured and drained (not into the foot box ...)

On this general topic, I am curious about any existing designs that use the FFR optional scoops, with some gate valve to route air to defrost the windshield (through the existing slots on the top of the dash) ...

Thx for your thoughts JohnMac!

By the way, this is an example of how a creative mind can run amok while waiting for POL parts to arrive :-)

[LateApex]

On a different topic, I am spending some time finalizing my dash design. I have settled on gauge location, and where to install an Alpine deck and a few bits, like 12V socket and USB port. Now it is to upholstery.

I have laid up a carbon fiber surface for the gauge panel proper. The rest of the dash, including end caps, I intend to upholster with a leather (that matches the FFR leather seats), with a 1/8" foam backing for an appropriate "feel". I know no more about car upholstery than building a Type 65, but am wading into it anyway.

My question relates to adhesives you all may have used. Aluminum dash to foam layer to leather, with all the appropriate holes and angles and other puzzle bits. What adhesive are you using? A lot of folks lean to Barge's cement for anything related to leather. It is pretty toxic **** (pls pardon the tech vernacular ..) though, and I am leaning to (and testing) Gorilla Glue Heavy Duty Spray Adhesive. Any experience with this product, or opinions on best products to use?

Thx muchly!

[edwardb]

DAP Weldwood Landau Top & Trim HHR Contact Adhesive is pretty much top of the food chain for automotive interiors. Vinyl, leather, whatever. It's what the pros use. All the automotive shows on TV where you see them spraying adhesive for interior work, 99.9% chance that's what they're using. While it is made for spraying, it's a bear to clean up and overspray is messy. So for small one-off jobs like ours, I've brushed it on for my builds with good results. Not available in retail. But available multiple places on-line. I've heard of some asking for and receiving a small quantity from their local automotive trim shop. They buy it by the drum. One caution: Extremely high solvent smell. Use in a well ventilated area and not around flames or pilot lights.

[LateApex]

What is the conventional wisdom concerning limiting rear end travel?

Under what use is this a practical design consideration?
Is the main intent to limit stress on the shock, i.e.: to limit suspension travel to less than the shock stroke?
Is a swaged cable a typical design?
For the coupe, what are the recommended attachment points for the limiter?

Thanx muchly!

[edwardb]

What is the conventional wisdom concerning limiting rear end travel?

Under what use is this a practical design consideration?
Is the main intent to limit stress on the shock, i.e.: to limit suspension travel to less than the shock stroke?
Is a swaged cable a typical design?
For the coupe, what are the recommended attachment points for the limiter?

Thanx muchly!

You shouldn't need cable limiters or whatever on your 3-link. The coilovers get the job done. Once you get the pinion angle set, make sure at full suspension hang the driveshaft doesn't hit anything and turns freely. Should be good to go.

[LateApex]

How does one eat an elephant? Of course, one bite at a time ...

Here is the requisite progress photo ....

IMG_1287.JPG

[LateApex]

To the right of Alpine deck, I will be mounting USB and 12V access points, as well as a passenger grab handle. Would love to find a "Daytona" chrome emblazon for the dash space in front of the PS seat5. No luck so far ...

The dash will be leather to match the seats. I have not settled on the visor design yet ...

[LateApex]

Another question for this group (if I may ...) In my previous photo, you can see the backside of a 12V cutoff switch. And also a mess of wiring related to the Holley Terminator-X I have mounted in the roof of the PS foot box. I am considering providing 12V power for the EFI control via the switched side of the 12V cutoff switch. This seems logical as this would assure cutoff to power for the fuel pump, which in an "emergency", is maybe the most important function a cutoff might provide.

However, if one is using a cutoff key as part of an anti-theft scheme, such an approach I think means that the Term-X might go through a re-learn process. Am I close? There are a few other threads I have spotted that discuss Terminator-X parasitic losses. I have not measured / do not know if this is a valid concern? Can the cutoff help in maintaining the battery?

Thanx for any insights !!

[GT_Rich]

I am also doing a TermX install and recently researched this exact topic on the Holley forum. Most guys install the safety cutoff switch in the low amperage "trigger" line that goes to the ignition switch. This will kill both fuel pump and spark instantly. While technically not by the books for some sanctioning bodies, it's my current plan.

[LateApex]

Thank you!

[LateApex]

What happens under the dash, stays under the dash ...

Friday afternoon, rapidly approaching Happy Hour. I think I'll call it a wrap for the week. Yeah ... right !!

IMG_1291.JPGIMG_1290.JPG