818 Performance Yard Stick

[Inthenameofweez]

I also want super car performance. Given the info supplied, it's damn possible.

[Sandy Washburn]

VOZ

Before making unwarranted negative comments about Dentsport Garage, and me by inference,
you should have read their web site and their customer testimonials, and then checked with
Dave Smith who is familiar with Dentsport Garage and has known me for six years.

I am not an owner, but my son, Bill Washburn, is a co-founder and co-owner of this very successful
race car fabrication and service organization, which has hundreds of satisfied customers.
They helped me build a Factory Five MkII roadster six years ago and I think that future 818
kit builders should know that they exist as a reputable resource.

I have followed the 818 project since the early stages and I expect to be one of the first customers
for the race version.

[vozproto]

Woah there buddy. If you go back and reread I think you'll find that I didnt say anything negative. Only concerned for the rest of the folks on the site.

I even noted that I wouldn't want the shop being blocked from the site if they are in fact a reputable and reliable shop.

[Tpa65cpe]

I am in the same boat as "inthenameofweez" only I would like a top cause of all the rain in FL

[Barrel]

I have reread your post Voz and it still sounds pretty negative to me. Buddy.

[vozproto]

I'll be happy to beat the average Corvette on the track. What I really want to see is the 818 on the chart with the cars of Top Gear. Mind you, someone will have to build a beast and allow The Stig to play with it. :0

That would be a helluva thing. You'd ge the publicity and the feedback all in one.

[Draco-REX]

The Stig is perfectly welcome to drive any of my cars.

[Etos]

Maxwell Power in Washington state is hands down the best subaru engine shop in NA, maybe the world. They have been building engines for airplanes for many years. They even had a plane with a subaru motor. They are also extremely affordable and you will never have a better assembled engine. I also highly recommend people start checking NASIOC for some info in the tech sections if you are unfamiliar with subarus.

[gorilla]

Maxwell Power in Washington state is hands down the best subaru engine shop in NA, maybe the world. They have been building engines for airplanes for many years. They even had a plane with a subaru motor. They are also extremely affordable and you will never have a better assembled engine. I also highly recommend people start checking NASIOC for some info in the tech sections if you are unfamiliar with subarus.

Don't get me wrong, those guys might be good, but to say they are the best in NA or the world...thats climbing out on a very flimsy limb. Either way, there are a TON of great subaru shops throughout the country. Some better than others, just be sure to do your research before you go out and spend a big chunk of change.

All this being said, I never stated where I want my 818 to perform. I am looking for Caterham and Ariel type of performance and 10sec 1/4 mile ability.

[305mouse]

Dom at Maxwell is very anal. He has a great attention to detail. He tuned my car and plan on having him build the shortblock for the 818

[bbjones121]

For tuning, I would say The Boost Creep Ltd. here in Colorado would be one of the best, if not the best and most friendly, subaru tuning facilities in the country.

[Draco-REX]

Serious reply:

Numbers-wise, the online calculators I've seen put my planned build at a 2.8 0-60 and a 10.5 sec 1/4 while hauling my big carcass around. Personally, I think that's wildly optimistic. I'll be happy with a high 11 sec 1/4 and 0-60 in the mid to high 3s. If I do get close to those ideal numbers, I'll be ecstatic.

[DrieStone]

I met a guy a few years ago who put a turbo-charged Hyabusa engine in his Lotus Seven. He mentioned that he regretted it, that it made the car less-fun to drive. This is a guy who owned a Lotus Esprit V8, an '83 Turbo Esprit, a heavily modified RX7 and was in the process of building a 240Z with a Syline GTR motor in it.

I'm sure we're all in the same boat. We all have cars that we wish were "just a little faster", there's always that mark. If I wanted a 2 second 0-60 I'd have a sport bike. I have no doubt that there were be a select few who will go for 400+ HP in this car, but it really doesn't need it. 250WHP is going to be insane, anything beyond that (IMHO) is just unnecessary.

I look forward to hearing the opinions of those who do it, but I'm going to smiling ear to ear with my "slow" 227HP WRX motor.

[crobin4]

This is perhaps all I care about at this point, looks be damned.

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBVVssJwx2Y

[SkiRideDrive]

This is perhaps all I care about at this point, looks be damned.

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBVVssJwx2Y

Oh yea, I've seen him run at El Toro, very quick. At about a minute in I wasn't sure he was going to make it through. If my 818 was that quick I would be quite happy. He does seem to have to drive around the powerband a bit tho, seems like there is a bit of lag. I haven't driven a wrx before but I'm hoping it's possible to really minimize any lag from building boost.

[Draco-REX]

Oh yea, I've seen him run at El Toro, very quick. At about a minute in I wasn't sure he was going to make it through. If my 818 was that quick I would be quite happy. He does seem to have to drive around the powerband a bit tho, seems like there is a bit of lag. I haven't driven a wrx before but I'm hoping it's possible to really minimize any lag from building boost.

A catless up pipe and a stage 2 setup w/ tune can get you near instant boost.

Watch my boost gauge at launch:
http://youtu.be/b3FI3Yfa94E

The downside is that the stock WRX turbo is restrictive on the exhaust side, so you lose some top end. You can free up some top end with an external wastegate. The good news is that with such a lightweight car, the WRX's TD-04 is more than enough to get it to scoot.

[Xusia]

This is perhaps all I care about at this point, looks be damned.

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBVVssJwx2Y

Yeah, that's about where I'd like to be. Perhaps just a bit less on the HP. I also want instant boost, and I want to keep it driveable.

[Flamshackle]

Yeah, that's about where I'd like to be. I also want instant boost, and I want to keep it driveable.

No chance of instant boost. But the earlier it comes on the more "drivable" they are... the 2005 legacy titaniam twin scrolls are very early to come on song so look for them...

[Xusia]

I driven cars with what I would term instant boost (with just a single turbo), so I know it's possible. The whole package just has to be engineered properly for the application and desired characteristics. And of course, there are trade offs...

[PhilElement]

I think the performance "yard stick" is going to be significantly different for what I think will be two different markets. On one hand you'll have the bang for the buck budget builder who's going to keep things basic to mild in regards to engine performance. The car's speed will still be very high due to the lightweight and this person would likely run standard STi wheels etc. On the other hand you'll have people like me who not only want huge power but also want to be the fastest car on the track. My budget and my goals will be significantly higher than the $15k customer. For instance my race STi turns a 1:14 at Summit Point, a 1:26 at NJMP Thunderbolt (with chicane), and a 1:55 at VIR. These are very fast lap times and I would love to step up the game in a tube chassis car. I'm even considering a converting a late model stock car to run Subie power but I would much prefer a clean slate. Given it's rear wheel drive it's going to need a 11-12 slick in the back and lots of downforce. While I think the two chassis could be the same, the body work, front splitter, rear wing, and wheel sizes will need to be much different.

Many more things also I'm sure everyone knows will need to be run...dry sump, bigger brakes, 6 speed transmission, competition worthy shocks and spring rates, engine management, etc. I would love to see a real enclosed body race option (GTM style or even racier) that would work with a rear wing or not. I think a version like this could make a serious track weapon but also a real "super car" for a person that wants to add the required equipment.

I'm exited about the prospects, I just hope a race worthy version will fit our time frame.

Thanks,
Philip Grabow

[vozproto]

Dang. My fastest time @ Summit Main was 1:19 an a 600cc bike.
1:14 is stupid fast.

What course were you runnin @ VIR?

I think the performance "yard stick" is going to be significantly different for what I think will be two different markets. On one hand you'll have the bang for the buck budget builder who's going to keep things basic to mild in regards to engine performance. The car's speed will still be very high due to the lightweight and this person would likely run standard STi wheels etc. On the other hand you'll have people like me who not only want huge power but also want to be the fastest car on the track. My budget and my goals will be significantly higher than the $15k customer. For instance my race STi turns a 1:14 at Summit Point, a 1:26 at NJMP Thunderbolt (with chicane), and a 1:55 at VIR. These are very fast lap times and I would love to step up the game in a tube chassis car. I'm even considering a converting a late model stock car to run Subie power but I would much prefer a clean slate. Given it's rear wheel drive it's going to need a 11-12 slick in the back and lots of downforce. While I think the two chassis could be the same, the body work, front splitter, rear wing, and wheel sizes will need to be much different.

Many more things also I'm sure everyone knows will need to be run...dry sump, bigger brakes, 6 speed transmission, competition worthy shocks and spring rates, engine management, etc. I would love to see a real enclosed body race option (GTM style or even racier) that would work with a rear wing or not. I think a version like this could make a serious track weapon but also a real "super car" for a person that wants to add the required equipment.

I'm exited about the prospects, I just hope a race worthy version will fit our time frame.

Thanks,
Philip Grabow

[PhilElement]

Dang. My fastest time @ Summit Main was 1:19 an a 600cc bike.
1:14 is stupid fast.

What course were you runnin @ VIR?

Thanks! Here's the video of the 1:14 lap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpvVt..._order&list=UL

I ran the 1:55 during the Viper Cup/Whelen TT this year on VIR Full. It was barely a 1:55 as it was a .9 but still not shabby for 100 degree weather.

There's no reason we couldn't go faster in a much lighter tube chassis car...even with rear wheel drive only.

Thanks,
Philip Grabow

[Flamshackle]

I driven cars with what I would term instant boost (with just a single turbo), so I know it's possible.

Sorry the -facts mad dog- in me comes out sometimes... What you term "instant boost" is your opinion I guess. But ANY car with a turbo is FAR from "instant" in building boost pressure.

There are lots of great turbo's designed for the 2.0 and 2.5 applications so a simple shop around and you will easily enough find a good compromise between quick spool and good top end power.

[vozproto]

Phil, Looks like they finally repaved summit main huh? I had actually gotten used to the grip on the concrete patches.

So I am guessing your yard-stick made it through the turn-6 esses @ VIR without issue during your Viper cup run...
That roll over looked pretty nasty.

[PhilElement]

Phil, Looks like they finally repaved summit main huh? I had actually gotten used to the grip on the concrete patches.

So I am guessing your yard-stick made it through the turn-6 esses @ VIR without issue during your Viper cup run...
That roll over looked pretty nasty.

Yeah the lap record was done on a fresh track but the asphalt came up so they had to lay some epoxy with sand in it. Even with temps in the high 30s the track was fast. I did run again in the 1:14s again a couple weeks ago but the track is considerably slower now.

Yes the new yard stick gets through the uphill esses just fine now. LOL!

Back on track:

What I want to build is something between what a GT1 car (professionally prepped and raced) and what a lap record TTU car can run so at VIR a 1:50 in a GT1 and 1:55 in a TTU car. Now the car doesn't have to run that pace in legal TTU trim but that's the beauty of having a turbocharger. You can dial it down for your class and then when races like the Viper Cup or the Ultimate Track Car Challenge come around you can increase your power. I know there is no way to expect an out of the box kit to run these times but with the right shock setup, tires, power and downforce we can do it. If I can hustle a 3180 lbs Subaru around VIR to a 1:55 I'm sure it will be a cake walk in a sub 2000 lbs car

[vozproto]

Would be super cool to have a yard-stick day once there are a few 818's good to go.

Put it up against some FFR cars as well as some other rides. I'm sure between the FFR community and that of whatever track is decided on we would have a few takers.

[PhilElement]

I driven cars with what I would term instant boost (with just a single turbo), so I know it's possible. The whole package just has to be engineered properly for the application and desired characteristics. And of course, there are trade offs...

Instant boost (let's just rephrase that to instant power) is relative to the chassis. Keep in mind the better the chassis and the lighter the car the more grip you have and what wouldn't traditionally be considered instant power is. On my race car because of the grip and downforce it's just never off the power band but if I dropped my driveline into a stock Subaru it would be terrible to drive around the track.

It's just not going to take a lot of power to make a 2100 race prepped (wings, fuel, driver, big brakes, and big tires) car have a similar power to weight ratio of 6.4 that I run now. This would be in the 325 whp range to be competitive against really fast TTU cars. My concern with lower power however is that power to weight ratio doesn't take into account aero drag. The aero drag isn't going to change based on the weight of the car so if it takes 100 HP to punch through the air at 110 mph with a CD of .33 (I'm totally estimating here based on calculations I did years ago) having a 325 whp car vs. a 500 whp car the higher power car is going to pull away on the straights. I've even seen this racing my STi vs. the Z06s and how they will hit higher top speeds with less power.

[PhilElement]

I'll put some NASA FFR lap records here for reference:

Summit Point:
Factory Five 1:22.389 7/8/2006 Tony Johnson

VIR Full:
Factory Five 2:11.947 3/27/2011 Paul Kaiser FFR (Your 2011 National Champ)

There is a heavily modified FFR in TTU driven by Trevor Poquette that leaves me in his dust on the back straight at VIR and he's in the 2:05 range. A 2:05 is solid at VIR and right around what a Grand AM GS car runs.

[SkiRideDrive]

Nice drivin Phil. I got out on VIR a few weeks ago for their holiday laps event on the motorcycle. That downhill roller coaster is tough to figure out on a bike. I particularly enjoyed your seatbelt check on the long back straight, she's a quick one.

[vozproto]

If talking about track times. If I got back east after building and got onto VIR and/or Summit Main, I would love to be able to match or beat my best track times on my r6.

I never made it to the expert level, but to get that same fix on 4 wheels would be something else.

[Kalstar]

Thanks! Here's the video of the 1:14 lap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpvVt..._order&list=UL

I ran the 1:55 during the Viper Cup/Whelen TT this year on VIR Full. It was barely a 1:55 as it was a .9 but still not shabby for 100 degree weather.

There's no reason we couldn't go faster in a much lighter tube chassis car...even with rear wheel drive only.

Thanks,
Philip Grabow

Confussed, why did it crash? I did not hear a throttle lift and the everything else seemed to be funtioning (sound wise). What caused the crash?

[Draco-REX]

Confussed, why did it crash? I did not hear a throttle lift and the everything else seemed to be funtioning (sound wise). What caused the crash?

Judging by the comments, it seems like the rear wing failed which would account for the rear end suddenly getting light over that crest.

[PhilElement]

Confussed, why did it crash? I did not hear a throttle lift and the everything else seemed to be funtioning (sound wise). What caused the crash?

This was awhile ago but the carbon wing mount where the airfoil attaches to the uprights failed and the wing came off. You can't go 148 mph into the uphill esses at VIR in a Subaru without lots of DF but mostly the balance of the car was so off given the car was setup for DF and had equal front DF. I clipped the curbing on entry and it was game over!

If talking about track times. If I got back east after building and got onto VIR and/or Summit Main, I would love to be able to match or beat my best track times on my r6.

I never made it to the expert level, but to get that same fix on 4 wheels would be something else.

The 818 if with the right downforce additions and 375 whp will no doubt be capable of the times I currently run (with the race slicks of course). It's going to be tough no doubt hooking up a RWD car when power levels reach 500 whp but below that it's going to rocket out of turns!

[Kalstar]

I hope you build one, you will be the PDG of the 818 world.

[kitcarj]

0-60 mph in 2.3 sec for $1100 100 mph in 4.9 sec

Ok, so it is only about 2 ft long but pretty impressive. Looks like fun and nice body design also.

http://www.gizmag.com/traxxas-xo-1-100mph-rc-car/20697/

[FFR-ADV]

Wow. FFR is on the right track given what the community has discussed to date. I can see that the both Factory Five and the FFR 818 community will have a wellspring of knowledge to maximize the street/track performance of this car. I personally hope Vman's gorgeous Targa Coupe becomes our next 818 (shameless endorsement) and am excited to place my order and put one of these in my driveway!

By way of comparison, the KTM X-Bow which is Carbon Fiber Monocoque Body

Weight: 825 kg Dry vs FFR goal of 818 kg Wet
(I personally think steel tube with fiberglass body is superior until one uses crazy high modulus carbon fiber, which is more appropriate for F1 $ Budgets.)

Engine: Make Audi TFSI
Type Turbo-charged, 4-cylinder petrol with direct fuel injection
Capacity 1984 cc / 2.0-litres
Bore & Stroke 82.5 x 92.8 mm
Max power 240 ps (177 kW) at 5500 rpm (about 237 HP vs the Subaru Boxer HP capacity while still keeping reliable)
Max torque 310 Nm (229 lb ft) from 2000 to 5500 rpm
Valves 16 (4 per cylinder)

Acceleration from standstill
0 to 50 mph 2.86 sec [0 to 80 km/h]
0 to 62 mph 3.90 sec [0 to 100 km/h]
0 to 75 mph 5.27 sec [0 to 120 km/h]
0 to 87 mph 6.61 sec [0 to 140 km/h]
0 to 99 mph 8.51 sec [0 to 160 km/h]

Price 82,900 Euro (Today about $111,000 USD OUCH!!!!)

More details at KTM site where this info comes from:

http://www.ktm-x-bow.com/KTM-launche...ash=d46ed83150

[bbjones121]

Wow. FFR is on the right track given what the community has discussed to date. I can see that the both Factory Five and the FFR 818 community will have a wellspring of knowledge to maximize the street/track performance of this car. I personally hope Vman's gorgeous Targa Coupe becomes our next 818 (shameless endorsement) and am excited to place my order and put one of these in my driveway!

By way of comparison, the KTM X-Bow which is Carbon Fiber Monocoque Body

Weight: 825 kg Dry vs FFR goal of 818 kg Wet
(I personally think steel tube with fiberglass body is superior until one uses crazy high modulus carbon fiber, which is more appropriate for F1 $ Budgets.)

Engine: Make Audi TFSI
Type Turbo-charged, 4-cylinder petrol with direct fuel injection
Capacity 1984 cc / 2.0-litres
Bore & Stroke 82.5 x 92.8 mm
Max power 240 ps (177 kW) at 5500 rpm (about 237 HP vs the Subaru Boxer HP capacity while still keeping reliable)
Max torque 310 Nm (229 lb ft) from 2000 to 5500 rpm
Valves 16 (4 per cylinder)

Acceleration from standstill
0 to 50 mph 2.86 sec [0 to 80 km/h]
0 to 62 mph 3.90 sec [0 to 100 km/h]
0 to 75 mph 5.27 sec [0 to 120 km/h]
0 to 87 mph 6.61 sec [0 to 140 km/h]
0 to 99 mph 8.51 sec [0 to 160 km/h]

Price 82,900 Euro (Today about $111,000 USD OUCH!!!!)

More details at KTM site where this info comes from:

http://www.ktm-x-bow.com/KTM-launche...ash=d46ed83150

Yeah....I hope it is well beyond the performance of the KTM X-Bow. Though that car looks cool, it performs terrible compared to other exo's. KTM just has a lot of money to persuade opinions in your popular shelf magazines. Running a 0-60 with the 818 in anything more than 3 seconds would tell you one of two obvious things, first, get better tires. If that doesn't work, then learn to work the gas pedal. <<Maybe it would be better to learn how to work the gas pedal first so that you aren't burning through expensive tires.

P.s. You can maintain reliability in the subaru 2.5l in a car this light anywhere up to 400hp (please don't argue this, do the research). Not running at least a stage 1,2 or 3 on the subaru power plant would be a sin (for those running a turbo), for those staying NA, more power to you (just figuratively speaking, not actually more power).

[FFR-ADV]

Thanks bbjones,

I agree with you. The Factory Five should far exceed the X-Bow performance. I was making a comparison to a production Exo, in a similar way to comparisons made against production F and P cars. I expect that the 818 will outperform many of the exos including the X-Bow even in Targa/Coupe form (my personal favorite).

I agree that the Subaru Motor is capable of alot more HP while still being reliable (I was not clear enough on that). I look forward to doing upgrades myself, and will benifit greatly from the knowledge provided by this community. More power, light weight! The 818 will be very cool!!!

The 818 has choosen the correct aplication of composites within our price range (for body only, where fiberglass will get the job done well). Factory Five use of a steel tube frame with rivited aluminum skins very effective (stiff and lightweight). Bad applications of composites look cool but add weight and give up stiffness. This is the main reason I choose it as a point of comparison is that I believe that Factory Five is making great choices in the application of materials to achieve a light, stiff car that will exceed those of even an expensive production exo, while the 818 will be much better looking and streetable in my eyes.

[pressley311]

I have an old EJ257 out of my old 05 sti. Its not put together right now but i have forged pistons and stg2 cams with all the supporting mods and a little bigger turbo not to out do the compacity of a TMIC should be good for an easy 450+ crank hp. I had this in my sti (fully stock enternals and heads)with only a full exhaust down pipe cat back and equal lenght headers, fuel pump, one heat range colder plugs, intake, manual boost controler and a tune put out 300awhp and 366awtrq. So about 380bhp and450btrq. That was just from letting it breathe and a tune. I also made all my torque at below 3600rpm's. This netted me a 12.9 1/4 with a 1.6 60ft on my first pass with a new clutch so with practice probably would do a 12.6 or so and thats a 3300 pund car.

[pressley311]

But juat remeber the weak point on the stock subaru or atleast the EJ257 is the pistons, the crand and rods usually hold up very well.