MB750's MKIV Roadster build thread

[MB750]

WOO HOO!!! No pics, but I just had my kit review chat with FFR!

Everything's on track for production and shipping.

[John Ibele]

WOO HOO!!! No pics, but I just had my kit review chat with FFR!

Everything's on track for production and shipping.

Fantastic. I'm looking forward to seeing your enviable fab skills applied to the rest of the car.

[MB750]

Fantastic. I'm looking forward to seeing your enviable fab skills applied to the rest of the car.

Thank you for this comment, I appreciate it. I'm really looking forward as well. I've grown tired of working on motorcycles, time for something new.

[MB750]

Merry Christmas to me!





Doing inventory now. It's going...... interestingly. So far, no tail lights and twice the door latch equipment than I need and I'm only on box 6. Is this normal?

My back is going to be killing me tonight though. Bent over slightly going thru all these boxes is taking its toll.

[Mike.Bray]

twice the door latch equipment than I need

Door latches are the last remaining item on my POL list. Send me your spare set! LOL

[JeffP]

Merry Christmas to me!


Doing inventory now. It's going...... interestingly. So far, no tail lights and twice the door latch equipment than I need and I'm only on box 6. Is this normal?

My back is going to be killing me tonight though. Bent over slightly going thru all these boxes is taking its toll.

Completely normal.

[MB750]

Wow, lots of boxes to find a place for. I built this "loft" over my wife's car for her stuff. I had to annex it:



Getting the body off was just like in the FFR video. It's surprisingly light. Since I was going to hoist it up to my ceiling it's staged in this pic:



Hoist it up:

[MB750]

I hate dead space, especially since I've got a lot of stuff to store, so I rigged up this "shelf" inside the body to hold the doors, hood, trunk, and all the aluminum I take off the chassis:





Tomorrow I'll work on the aluminum. Enough for one day:

[Jeff Kleiner]

I'm pretty familiar with these bodies and would like to make a suggestion...or warning. The way you have your straps they are flexing the body inward across the wheel openings. Your shelf (which is clever!) is exacerbating that with it's additional weight pulling on the straps. I'd feel a lot better if you ran a 2x4 across the wheel openings and then hooked the straps on the ends of those. You could suspend the "shelf" from these. If done this way the body would just be held up in a relaxed state without any pressure flexing it inward.

Good luck,
Jeff

[MB750]

Thanks Jeff, and consider it done. I just ran out of lumber but I like your concerns. I'll bang that out tomorrow. Chances are this body will be hanging out for 6 months or so, so your concerns are appreciated.

[MB750]

Thanks again Jeff, that was a good idea. It's much more solid now. I left the straps but they're not load-bearing. Just for when I lower the body:





Numbering the aluminum panels on the chassis per the instruction manual:





And the "shelf" is already working out great!



Next up, assembly!!! Tonight I'll start a path forward. If I use the Factory Five assembly videos I'll be starting with the front control arms.

[cc2Arider]

Good plan!

I just cleared out some more room in my garage by moving my cheapo kayak to my outdoor shed.20221218_164514.jpg

I picked up an overhead storage pulley system (made for kayaks) from Menard's pretty cheap, and am thinking about doing the same for my roadster body, too It's made for about 100lbs, so I'll get two of them and use Jeff's 2x4 suggestion on my body buck

Craig C

[MB750]

Good plan!

I just cleared out some more room in my garage by moving my cheapo kayak to my outdoor shed.20221218_164514.jpg

I picked up an overhead storage pulley system (made for kayaks) from Menard's pretty cheap, and am thinking about doing the same for my roadster body, too It's made for about 100lbs, so I'll get two of them and use Jeff's 2x4 suggestion on my body buck

Craig C

I was originally going to go with the kayak hoists as well, but then just forgot to order them. By the time I had the body off I wanted it up on the ceiling faster than I wanted to wait for delivery, so here we are.

I had the wide ratchet straps from when I strapped down the Mustang donor, they'll work great for this as well.

[MB750]

Since my last update I've gotten started on the build. Low and behold, it's going smoothly. I think it's more time consuming to find and arrange layout of parts than it is to physically install them. Regardless, there's TONS of people who've done a better job than I have the ambition to put towards a blue ribbon level build thread, so I'll basically be doing updates as I deem fit. Unless I run into something unique to my configuration, of course. That being said, progress so far:

Front suspension and control arms mostly done (front rotors on POL)



My axle has 131K miles so it's getting the royal treatment. Complete teardown and replacement of some bearings, all seals, differential clutches, and a paint job:





Steering done too. My rack was only 3.125 turns lock to lock. Here's where it landed after I flipped the steering wheel housing over.



And after cleaning off decades of grime and grease, and cleaning the bare steel with acetone, this is the primer:



After this dries I'll be going with satin black. Both Rustoleum hand painted (not rattle can).

[Jeff Kleiner]

I see an axle with an ABS ring which tells me that it’s from 1994 or later. Are you keeping that width? If so what is your wheel and tire plan?

Jeff

[JeffP]

Be careful with those HF Dollies and Jack stands. I've rolled mine around the garage and had those dollies catch an expansion joint just right and have a wheel slip off. Adding a jack stand thats not even strapped to the dolly is eventually going to not end well.

[MB750]

I see an axle with an ABS ring which tells me that it’s from 1994 or later. Are you keeping that width? If so what is your wheel and tire plan?

Jeff

At this point I'm keeping the 18x9 wheels that came off the Mustang (which was a 95) and putting new 255/40/18's on it. Just street tires, I'll go with sticky rubber once I settle on a better, more period-specific type wheel.

Now you've got me worried though. Is there an issue with this axle? Or do I just need to keep wheel backspacing a consideration with my wheels?

[Jeff Kleiner]

At this point I'm keeping the 18x9 wheels that came off the Mustang (which was a 95) and putting new 255/40/18's on it. Just street tires, I'll go with sticky rubber once I settle on a better, more period-specific type wheel.

Now you've got me worried though. Is there an issue with this axle? Or do I just need to keep wheel backspacing a consideration with my wheels?

If you try to run the FFR 17x10.5” or 18x11” (or other rims in those sizes with similar backspace and offset specs) you’ll get into trouble with tire to body interference.

Jeff

[MB750]

If you try to run the FFR 17x10.5” or 18x11” (or other rims in those sizes with similar backspace and offset specs) you’ll get into trouble with tire to body interference.

Jeff

Cool, thanks Jeff. Doing some googling, looks like my axle is .75" wider in total than the Fox Body variant. I'll keep this in mind regarding the wheels. My current wheels have a 6" backspacing, and since I'm going with 255 tires (at least for break-in and roadworthy testing) I'll be good. And I can take measurements for clearance and base my next wheels and tires off my physical limitations.

Considering I'm not going with a 427" with zillions of HP I don't see a super urgent need to have 315 width tires. When I eventually do get my wheels I'll probably stick with something in the 9" to 10" wheel range and around a 275-295 width. Knowing this new information about the axle I'll have to keep backspacing in mind.

[MB750]

Just a quick plug for ACE Hardware.

I was lowballed a 3/4" x 16 jam nut in the axle hardware kit box. These are used on the upper and panhard bars. One on each bar is left hand thread, the other is normal, but they're both 3/4" x 16 thread. This is not a very common size, but fortunately I needed the right hand thread version.

Knowing Lowes and Home Despot never carry anything north of 1/2", and their inventory for fine thread is a total crap shoot, I hit up the local ACE. Low and behold, not only did they have exactly a 3/4"x16 jam nut, they also had left hand thread 3/4"x16 nuts (not jam though).

Thankfully the ACE is only about 3 miles from my house. I love ACE Hardware!

[Mike.Bray]

Just a quick plug for ACE Hardware.

I was lowballed a 3/4" x 16 jam nut in the axle hardware kit box. These are used on the upper and panhard bars. One on each bar is left hand thread, the other is normal, but they're both 3/4" x 16 thread. This is not a very common size, but fortunately I needed the right hand thread version.

Knowing Lowes and Home Despot never carry anything north of 1/2", and their inventory for fine thread is a total crap shoot, I hit up the local ACE. Low and behold, not only did they have exactly a 3/4"x16 jam nut, they also had left hand thread 3/4"x16 nuts (not jam though).

Thankfully the ACE is only about 3 miles from my house. I love ACE Hardware!

Ace is amazing. I usually hit them first when looking for hardware.

[JeffP]

Sadly an absurdly large percentage of nuts/bolts on my completed car were sourced from my local DoIt center (like ACE if you don't have them..)

[MB750]

Sadly an absurdly large percentage of nuts/bolts on my completed car were sourced from my local DoIt center (like ACE if you don't have them..)

Yea, that's a bummer. I actually headed back for some 1/2" fasteners stuff because I didn't like the length of the bolts they gave me to mount the lower control arm bracket. The one that goes thru the shock, it barely had enough threads to get going on the lock part of the nut. So I got some 1/2" longer bolts and teflon lock nuts.

I also didn't get any spacers for the Koni shocks in the rear either. I had a couple extra spacers that were 5/8" for the panhard bar bolts, but I wasn't going to use them on a 1/2" bolt. ACE to the rescue again there too! (although I did have to machine them a little shorter to be perfect)

[MB750]

Continuing the work. Got the axle mounted, but it was gutted from all the bits so it was relatively light:





I had to make the spacers for the rear shocks. Apparently they're included with the IRS components but not with the 3-link. I didn't want to make a big deal out of it to FFR:



Drilled out 1/2" nuts work great as spacers:

[MB750]

I got the footbox installed but wasn't 100% on that balance rod for the brakes, so I watched a few videos online and cleaned all the damn paint out of the inside of the brake lever (which was making the balance rod stick) and got out the caliper for some accurate data:







According to Wilwood, one full turn on the balance rod is a 4% increase in lever force on the master cylinder you move the center of the balance rod towards. The right master cylinder (when facing forward) is the front brakes. Marking the top, I gave it 5 turns for a 70/30 distribution:

[MB750]

All done:



And the gas pedal, but I didn't mess with the cable yet because I'm probably gonna go with lever arms instead of the cable:

[edwardb]

I don't think your balance bar is adjusted properly. As shown in the manual (a cut and paste from Wilwood instructions) there's supposed to be some looseness between each clevis and the pedal. "In the neutral position, clevises should have between .20” - .25” total clearance between the side of the pedal. The large washers between the pedal and clevis should remain loose." Maybe it's the camera angle, but yours looks tighter than that. Matching the dimensions of the width of the MC's and the clevises isn't part of the setup, which you seem to be trying to do. Not sure what videos you're watching and what advice you might be getting there. But it's important that the balance bar have the recommended clearance to work properly. Agreed it's maybe not intuitive. But that's how it works.

[MB750]

I don't think your balance bar is adjusted properly. As shown in the manual (a cut and paste from Wilwood instructions) there's supposed to be some looseness between each clevis and the pedal. "In the neutral position, clevises should have between .20” - .25” total clearance between the side of the pedal. The large washers between the pedal and clevis should remain loose." Maybe it's the camera angle, but yours looks tighter than that. Matching the dimensions of the width of the MC's and the clevises isn't part of the setup, which you seem to be trying to do. Not sure what videos you're watching and what advice you might be getting there. But it's important that the balance bar have the recommended clearance to work properly. Agreed it's maybe not intuitive. But that's how it works.

It's the angle of the camera. There's around .200" of clearance when I shove the whole balance bar to one side. I measured it with a bunch of feeler gauges, but per Wilwood, two quarters is enough. For the life of me I don't have any spare change around the house so I used a feeler gauge. 0.200" also leaves the clevis' very close to the MC width. When I look straight down at the whole setup the MC shafts are visually parallel, and when measured I'd call it "close enough for Government work". I also didn't get a pic but I did adjust the clevis' to the width of the master cylinders. Basically just took one clevis out another turn and I got as close as possible to the MC width while keeping the BB centered.

Once I had the clevis width the same as the MC width, I had the balance bar at 50/50. That's the caliper measurement from center to 2.5" (there was 2.5" on the other side as well). Per one of the Wilwood videos I watched, one turn on the balance bar is 4% leverage increase on the side you move the balance bar pivot away from. Since my right MC is the front brakes, and I want to start at 70/30 (like a motorcycle), I turned the balance bar 5 times to get the BB pivot closer to the rear MC.

And that is my biggest beef with the manual. It says what to do, but there's no clarifying pictures showing you the mechanics of what's being done. Yes it shows something, but I wanted to clearly see where the BB pivot was located in the brake lever. Even most of the videos I watched didn't illustrate what side you need to move the BB pivot closer to in order to increase the mechanical advantage on one of the MC's, it just said what to do. I'm a very visual person so when I didn't get 100% clarity from the manual I hit the internet.

I also adjusted the MC rods so at 0% brake pedal input the right clevis is just a bit in front of the left, and at 100% pedal input the right clevis passes the left and ends up a bit behind the left one. This is to maintain maximum leverage across the sweep of the brake pedal (just like the Wilwood instructions show in the FFR manual). Once I have everything bled I may make more adjustments since the brake lever sweep is HUGE with no brake fluid or pressure, but at least I'm in the ballpark.

Here's some clarifying pics:

0% brake lever effort from my foot. Right clevis is further forward than the left. And there is no preload on either MC:



100% brake lever effort. Notice how the right clevis is now further back than the left:



Balance rod pulled all the way to the left, plenty of clearance:

[MB750]

Just want to put a quick list of where I'm at, where I'm going next, and where I'm stuck:

Front brakes - need rotors on POL
Rear brakes - since those are on me I need rotors, and clean up OEM calipers. Buy pads too
Axle - need 3/4"x20 tap and die for pinion thread and nut clean-up, then I can install differential and axles
Fuel tank - want to finish axle first for more room to work, and need POL fuel tank pickup and level sensor
Brake lines - could get started on the hard lines, but need the front flex lines on POL
Cockpit Aluminum - Could do this also...after brake lines though

[Mike.Bray]

I have a 3 link and all of the spacers for the shocks came with it. You should have received them with your kit.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Just want to put a quick list of where I'm at, where I'm going next, and where I'm stuck:


Axle - need 3/4"x20 tap and die for pinion thread and nut clean-up, then I can install differential and axles

There is no 3/4-20. 3/4” threads are either 10 or 16. You can buy a new pinion nut for about 8 bucks; probably less than a tap.

I have a 3 link and all of the spacers for the shocks came with it. You should have received them with your kit.

Correct. Should have. And there are specific lengths and stack up which are shown in the manual.

Jeff

[MB750]

I have a 3 link and all of the spacers for the shocks came with it. You should have received them with your kit.

...should have... Key operative there.

As this thing comes together I'm discovering quite a few things I "should have" gotten but didn't. Not even on the inventories for each box either.

As you can see from my honey-do list above, I'm stuck on a couple things on POL. Making a spacer is as easy as buying an oversized one and milling it down. The manual says the dimensions, and I've got a mill.

I'll start on the brake lines next. At least I can terminate them at the transitions where they switch to soft lines.

[edwardb]

It's the angle of the camera. There's around .200" of clearance when I shove the whole balance bar to one side. I measured it with a bunch of feeler gauges, but per Wilwood, two quarters is enough. For the life of me I don't have any spare change around the house so I used a feeler gauge. 0.200" also leaves the clevis' very close to the MC width. When I look straight down at the whole setup the MC shafts are visually parallel, and when measured I'd call it "close enough for Government work". I also didn't get a pic but I did adjust the clevis' to the width of the master cylinders. Basically just took one clevis out another turn and I got as close as possible to the MC width while keeping the BB centered.

Once I had the clevis width the same as the MC width, I had the balance bar at 50/50. That's the caliper measurement from center to 2.5" (there was 2.5" on the other side as well). Per one of the Wilwood videos I watched, one turn on the balance bar is 4% leverage increase on the side you move the balance bar pivot towards. Since my right MC is the front brakes, and I want to start at 70/30 (like a motorcycle), I turned the balance bar 5 times clockwise (facing it from the right) to get the BB pivot closer to the right MC.

And that is my biggest beef with the manual. It says what to do, but there's no clarifying pictures showing you the mechanics of what's being done. Yes it shows something, but I wanted to clearly see where the BB pivot was located in the brake lever. Even most of the videos I watched didn't illustrate what side you need to move the BB pivot closer to in order to increase the mechanical advantage on one of the MC's, it just said what to do. I'm a very visual person so when I didn't get 100% clarity from the manual I hit the internet.

I also adjusted the MC rods so at 0% brake pedal input the right clevis is just a bit in front of the left, and at 100% pedal input the right clevis passes the left and ends up a bit behind the left one. This is to maintain maximum leverage across the sweep of the brake pedal (just like the Wilwood instructions show in the FFR manual). Once I have everything bled I may make more adjustments since the brake lever sweep is HUGE with no brake fluid or pressure, but at least I'm in the ballpark.

You clearly have the specified clearance. Just wasn't clear from the previous picture. Something that a lot of guys miss so thought that was the case. Sorry for questioning. For my builds, I've always started with the balance bar in the center and have required little/no adjustment from there. These cars take a lot of rear brake. But you'll find out when you start actually testing.

[MB750]

You clearly have the specified clearance. Just wasn't clear from the previous picture. Something that a lot of guys miss so thought that was the case. Sorry for questioning. For my builds, I've always started with the balance bar in the center and have required little/no adjustment from there. These cars take a lot of rear brake. But you'll find out when you start actually testing.

No problem, I appreciate it. One of the reasons I'm so transparent with most things in my life is because I like the oversight from people who've done this before. I don't know everything, and sharing my experience with others who've done this before only helps me, and anyone else who might be reading this build thread.

As far as testing my brakes, I was planning on finding a dirt road around here and having my wife record me locking up the brakes to various degrees. This way I can see what end locks up first, and make adjustments from there.

[MB750]

December progress. This includes all the time I worked with the car (delivery, inventory, garage setup, etc...)

[MB750]

December progress video:

[MB750]

Ok, this is getting annoying and I need to vent...

I'm getting started on my brakes lines and reservoir install. The reservoir install went fine even though the manual nor the video is the same as what I was sent. Regardless, it's installed and plumbed and hose clamped.

Starting on the brake lines, I removed them from the tube they all came in. "Looks like enough" I say, so I work on getting more parts ready for install. Hmmmm, insulated clips, I don't recall seeing them during inventory. Considering the video shows about 20 of them being installed I'm guessing there's a sizeable bag of them somewhere.

Nope... None.... In any of my boxes. Not listed on my inventory lists either, nor on POL. So I hit up my reference list for stuff like this (mladen's inventory tracking spreadsheet) and low and behold there's an entire kit that somehow just fell off my order...



No wonder these cars take so long to build! If something isn't on POL, it just fell off the BOM entirely and you'll never get it if you don't magically know you were supposed to in the first place!

[MB750]

Making progress on the brake lines. Please ignore the duct tape straps. Also waiting for the rest of the front brake fittings from the 20" flex line (which apparently includes the Tee and adapter to AN-3 brake line).

[MB750]

Clean up the threads on the pinion and install it, and the differential, and check gear mesh pattern:





Crushing that crush spacer was a total bear. It was everything I had using this breaker bar to get a smidge of turn on the nut.



When you can turn the pinion at 16 to 28 in-lbs that's enough preload on the pinion. I honestly think this is the one and only time I'll every use a beam-style 1/4" drive inch-pound torque wrench:



Add marking compound, apply some resistance to the carrier and turn the pinion. Here's the forward pattern:



And reverse:



I can live with that.

[MB750]

Axle is complete (except for brakes, which are on order). Took about an hour cleaning up that cover but I like the contrast between bare metal and the painted axle: