Mark 1 Upper Control Arm Upgrade ??

[ProfessorB]

Oky, okay....I'm a newbie and did NOT build the car (I could have not built this much bang for the buck). I'm a backyard mechanic at best...but CAN understand good advice. The steering is "twitchy" and it has been recommended (by more experienced guys) that adding caster should be my first thing to do (car has power steering). It's just that I'm looking at my front suspension and I can see how to adjust camber....but NOT caster.
I'm wondering.....is there some kind of UCA upgrade for the Mrk III ?
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UPDATE: Originally, I thought I had a Mark III. When I found out I have a Mark 1, I edited the Title of the Thread to "MarkI" instead of "Mark III".

[Jeff Kleiner]

Oky, okay....I'm a newbie and did NOT build the car (I could have not built this much bang for the buck). I'm a backyard mechanic at best...but CAN understand good advice. The steering is "twitchy" and it has been recommended (by more experienced guys) that adding caster should be my first thing to do (car has power steering). It's just that I'm looking at my front suspension and I can see how to adjust camber....but NOT caster.
I'm wondering.....is there some kind of UCA upgrade for the Mrk III ?

Caster and camber are both changed by turning the adjustment sleeves on the upper control arms.

Jeff

[Indy Shu]

The typical "problem" with that vintage (which i have) is the front end geometry led to bump steer so it may jump left or right as it goes over a bump or dip. There are some different solutions that help improve that, which your car may or may not have. If it's twitchy on your steering input, a realignment will likely fix that. You want to check caster, camber, and toe-in for total alignment. Good luck!

[ProfessorB]

Caster and camber are both changed by turning the adjustment sleeves on the upper control arms.

Jeff

Thanks for your response, Jeff. Problem is....I'm don't see any adjustment "sleeves" on my Mark III. I have been really struggling with understanding this. The upper control arm is ONE PIECE....

[ProfessorB]

Thanks John. But if you re-read my post, I do not understand HOW to adjust the caster. Again, HOW to do it.

[gbranham]

Your upper control arms don't have these hexagonal sleeves on each arm? Show us a picture of yours. By adjusting the length of each arm by rotating these sleeves, you will adjust caster and camber.

Passenger Suspension 5.jpg

[Jeff Kleiner]

Thanks John. But if you re-read my post, I do not understand HOW to adjust the caster. Again, HOW to do it.

Do your upper arms look like the photo Greg posted? Or do they look more like this?



Jeff

[ProfessorB]

Yes, they look a little like those. I am struggling with this (pretty obvious) but DO appreciate the advice. Furthermore, posting pics is ALSO a struggle for me (and I know that learning how to post pics is MY responsibility)
...Basically, I can describe my upper control arms as "one piece, tubular). They are attached at the top to a long round piece (I'll call it a pivot bar). This "pivot bar" is attached by two bolts in slots. These slots run sideways...by that I could loosen the botls and slide in outboard or inboard (which would change camber) but I see NO way to move upper arm forward or rearward. I'm so frustrated that I'm willing to just buy new upper arms (like the Mark 4 has) . I'm baffled as to how caster can even be changed a little with the etup I have. (I'm assuming that all Mark 3's have this)

[rich grsc]

That is not a Mk III, sounds like a Mk I. You adjust caster by moving the rear bolt in towards the engine and keeping the front the same, or just a little outward to maintain camber.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Yes, they look a little like those. I am struggling with this (pretty obvious) but DO appreciate the advice. Furthermore, posting pics is ALSO a struggle for me (and I know that learning how to post pics is MY responsibility)
...Basically, I can describe my upper control arms as "one piece, tubular). They are attached at the top to a long round piece (I'll call it a pivot bar). This "pivot bar" is attached by two bolts in slots. These slots run sideways...by that I could loosen the botls and slide in outboard or inboard (which would change camber) but I see NO way to move upper arm forward or rearward. I'm so frustrated that I'm willing to just buy new upper arms (like the Mark 4 has) . I'm baffled as to how caster can even be changed a little with the etup I have. (I'm assuming that all Mark 3's have this)

Got news for ya’ Professor—-you have a Mk1, not a Mk3. This also explains some of the handling concerns you discussed in other threads because they were more prone to bump steer.

Jeff

[ProfessorB]

20240209_161323.jpg

Here's a pic (I can't believe I figured it out). Hopefully, this will help. As you can see, there's just some slots going "crossways" (which I'm thinking would change camber) but I can't see how I could change caster.
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So if I have a Mark 1 (I DO know it's titled as a 2002) what, including changing control arms, should I do here?

[weendoggy]

20240209_161323.jpg

Here's a pic (I can't believe I figured it out). Hopefully, this will help. As you can see, there's just some slots going "crossways" (which I'm thinking would change camber) but I can't see how I could change caster.
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So if I have a Mark 1 (I DO know it's titled as a 2002) what, including changing control arms, should I do here?

I'd purchase new upper control arms from SPC. They will have adjustable sleeves. Then, I'd weld a washer on top and bottom of that slot, putting the bolt off center toward the outer edge, but not all the way. That will keep it in place and not move. Then you just use the SPC arms to do camber/caster adjustment. How do I know this, I did it on my MKI and it works fine, even with PS.

I can take take some pics of mine later today if needed. I've had mine like this for over 20yrs and do open track driving as well. No issues.

Those original arms had a habit of moving as well as breaking. There was a time when a "widget" was made and I have buddies who still have them. You can set camber/caster with that setup, but it's a PITA and to me, unsafe. jmo

[Jeff Kleiner]

... There was a time when a "widget" was made and I have buddies who still have them...

Ah yes Glen, the famous "Lisman widgets"---Not a lot of us around here who go back that far

Here's a pic (I can't believe I figured it out). Hopefully, this will help. As you can see, there's just some slots going "crossways" (which I'm thinking would change camber) but I can't see how I could change caster.
.
So if I have a Mark 1 (I DO know it's titled as a 2002) what, including changing control arms, should I do here?

Professor,
Ween just made the same recommendation that I would have regarding the best way to go about converting to the adjustable SPC adjustable uppers. FYI, with the slots you can indeed adjust both caster and camber---for example the crossbar is moved farther inboard on the rear slot than the front slot to increase positive caster and so forth. As he said, it's a pain! Since up till now we thought you were dealing with a Mk3 rather than a Mk1 many of our suggestions involved going to a more aggressive positive caster setting however I don't think that there is sufficient range with the slots to achieve that anyway.

Jeff

[ProfessorB]

I'd purchase new upper control arms from SPC. They will have adjustable sleeves. Then, I'd weld a washer on top and bottom of that slot, putting the bolt off center toward the outer edge, but not all the way. That will keep it in place and not move. Then you just use the SPC arms to do camber/caster adjustment. How do I know this, I did it on my MKI and it works fine, even with PS.

I can take take some pics of mine later today if needed. I've had mine like this for over 20yrs and do open track driving as well. No issues.

Those original arms had a habit of moving as well as breaking. There was a time when a "widget" was made and I have buddies who still have them. You can set camber/caster with that setup, but it's a PITA and to me, unsafe. jmo

....I'm feeling pretty stupid (thinking I had a Mrk III) but also feeling pretty grateful for learning the "truth" and for all the help. So.....got to ask: Who is "SPC"? I'm just resolved to do whatever it is that I need to do in order to fix the issue as best I can. I already had thought changing upper control arms was called for....now I need to know who "SPC" is (as well as anybody else where I might source new upper control arms. And again, I appreciate all the help and guidance. (see below)
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Also, are y'all sure I have a Mrk I....and not a Mrk II ?
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Update: I googled SPC so I know who SPC is now. Is there a certain uca I should use?

[Jeff Kleiner]

....Also, are y'all sure I have a Mrk I....and not a Mrk II ?
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Positive. Mk2 used the adjustable control arms and they mounted in either of two sets of holes where your slots are located. Call SPC and tell them you're needing arms for a Factory Five roadster and they'll be able to set you up.

Jeff

[CraigS]

You can order your arms from SPC by ordering the individual parts. But, from a couple comments I have read over the years, Jeff's suggestion is the way to go. Not only will you get the correct combination of parts but I think their price for a complete UCA will be less than for the parts.

[weendoggy]

Ah yes Glen, the famous "Lisman widgets"---Not a lot of us around here who go back that far
Jeff

Yep, that's why some of us are still here. To help those who don't know anything more than the last 15yrs of how they were built.

8669.jpeg

I'm in contact with the Professor and getting him setup. These are the first edition ones, the second edition were customized to fit in the slot. Now, everybody knows.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Yep, that's why some of us are still here. To help those who don't know anything more than the last 15yrs of how they were built.

8669.jpeg

I'm in contact with the Professor and getting him setup. These are the first edition ones, the second edition were customized to fit in the slot. Now, everybody knows.

Yep, that's them!

Sometimes we have to take a ride on the Wayback Machine! You know, I kind of miss those early days when we had to think for ourselves and build rather than assemble

Jeff

[ProfessorB]

UPDATE:
So I've taken everybody's suggestions here and decided to upgrade upper control arms , rack and pinion, etc Since I learned on here that I have a Mark 1 and not a Mark III (OUCH!) I am thinking of starting a NEW thread (called Mark 1 upgrade) instead of the "Mark 3" title on this thread. I tried to edit the title but could not. So, I'm looking for opinions on whether to re-boot and start a NEW thread.
For the record, I'm a shade tree mechanic at best...and a "newbie". My idea is to maybe, in some way, to this forum. It might only help other newbies, but it might be a contribution. Should I start a new thread?

[David Williamson]

There are lots of older FFR cars out there, mine Mkll is coming up to it's 20th year this Summer. Some of the older cars have been rebuilt and you will find some posts here about it but we enjoy reading about everyones work, post away. Also FFR have some parts to help do upgrades and they did a short video about it a few weeks ago. The biggest change to how the cars drive is in the front suspension geometry as it was updated over the years. Be aware some changes will snowball into many more but that is how you will make the car yours.
And there are guys here who really know these cars that will guide you.
David W

[PG_Cobra]

New thread is a good idea. I have a MK1 and I've done a ton of mods to the suspension front and rear. I'm sure many folk are now rebuilding these older cars and a new thread would be useful.

One item to note on your front suspension is to be wary of ball joint binding. The ball joints have to have an angled mounting on both control arms if you want to increase caster. The Mustang control arms and early FF control arms have a flat mount to the arm. With increased caster the ball stem will hit the edge of its casing as steering lock is increased. This will cause the upper control arm to be forced up under mechanical interference as the steering lock is increased. Good way to blow out PS rack seals and could eventually cause ball joint stem fracture. I noticed my UCAs going up as I was working on my mods so I fixed the issue with better control arms.

[JohnK]

A new thread is probably the best choice, but FWIW you can change the title of a thread by going to the first post, clicking "Edit Post" and when the edit box comes up click "Go Advanced". The advanced editing screen allows you to change the title. This is how folks keep their build thread titles updated with current status, for example.

[ProfessorB]

Attachment 195714Attachment 195714
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Update: I edited the Title of the thread to Mark "1" instead of Mark III. My goal here is to improve the front end handling. I had found it to be too twitchy for me. Interestingly, the seller of this car had made the same observation (and he also owns a Lamborghini and a Porsche). I HAVE decided on a rack and pinion with a "slower" ratio. I know the majority of forum members prefer the quicker ratio and I respect their decision for what will work best for them.......I HAVE decided a slower ratio will work best for me.
I went thru a lot of grief getting to right rack and pinion. If anybody else is rack and pinion shopping BE AWARE. Even tho a website shows different part numbers for different steering ratios, THAT IS NOT THE CASE. They (specifically BBB who supplies O'Reily's) ADMITTED to me that they just send you something that "fits"....the steering ratio will not necessarily be correct. I ended up calling Unisteer....who DOES care about sending the "right" rack where the steering ratio can be specified. If y'all want a Unisteer rack....it's cheaper buying thru Summit than it is direct from Unisteer. $470 including shipping with a military discount. They had two power rack options: "quick ratio" and "standard ratio". I went with standard ratio listed as 3 turns lock-to-lock) So, the rack is on the way....
The first order of business is to upgrade the upper control arms. The Mark I arms leave a lot to be desired. My two choices were the Factory Five arms (with hex aluminum sleeves) or SPC upper arms (with round steel sleeves). The FFR arms are easier to adjust (because of the hex shape) but I went with the SPC arms because of the strength of steel. I have been advised to use Anti-seize on the threads. Good advice....I plan on doing so.

[JohnnyB]

Some things never change. I had the same experience finding a slower rack years ago when I fixed the twitchy steering in my Mark 1. I went through all the racks AutoZone had in their warehouse and finally found a genuine three turn rack on my second try at O'Reilly’s.

You might also want to consider adding rack extenders to improve the geometry issues that come with using a Mustang rack. Factory Five added the extenders in later kits to move the tie rod pivot location out to reduce bump steer. Changing the rack, adding the extenders and adjusting the position of the rack while measuring the bump steer made a huge difference in the handling of my Mark 1. It’s like a new car now, no bump steer and the steering is very stable but still plenty quick.

[ProfessorB]

20240221_204858.jpg20240221_204945.jpg20240221_204858.jpg
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Some good news, I finally located a proper rack and pinion. After a month of trying to deal with O'Reily's and BBB (the rack and pinion supplier for O'Reily's) I threw in the towel. I ordered a Unisteer rack and pinion through Summit. It was an extra $200 to get it this way, but it IS the correct rack with the "standard" ratio. It is 3 turns lock to lock as opposed to the quick ratio which is two turns lock to lock. I know, I know...."lock to lock" is the wrong way to compare racks....but suppliers are NOT listing steering ratio (which is the CORRECT way to compare racks). The other thing I did was to measure the distance the tie rod moved for one complete turn of the shaft. Old rack was 2 inches of movement per turn....new rack was roughly 1 5/8 inches per turn, proving it IS a slower ratio than the original rack. If one is lucky, one could get this rack a lot cheaper at the local auto parts store, but suppliers have begun to "mix" ratios in what they call an "also fits" policy, meaning you may or may not get the ratio you ordered. After a month of this BS, I went with the Unisteer rack. It's cheaper thru Summit than it is direct from Unisteer, by the way. I'm just freakin' glad I finally have the rack I wanted.

[CraigS]

Excellent. The multi ratios is a long time thing. I remember back somewhere around 2015 I wanted to try the 2.5 rack. Took 2 tries to get it. I always carried a pair of small needle nose vice grips w/ me to the auto parts store to test before I bought. BTW I loved it in an autocross slalom but I gave it 4-5 months thinking I would get acclimated to it on the street and never did. In the car around April and out around September.

[ProfessorB]

Excellent. The multi ratios is a long time thing. I remember back somewhere around 2015 I wanted to try the 2.5 rack. Took 2 tries to get it. I always carried a pair of small needle nose vice grips w/ me to the auto parts store to test before I bought. BTW I loved it in an autocross slalom but I gave it 4-5 months thinking I would get acclimated to it on the street and never did. In the car around April and out around September.

Well, I'm new....and I "get" that. But this car is RIDICULOUSLY twitchy. I've received a lot of "feedback" from more seasoned Cobra guys about just "learning to properly drive a Cobra" but it's twitchier than that. The previous owner (who still owns a Porsche and a Lamborghini) had the same complaint. I think at least some of the problem is that it's a Mrk 1 and has only limited caster adjustment. But I am proceeding with a multi-pronged approach. It's MY car and I won't be racing it....I'm changing the rack and pinion as well.

[rich grsc]

Your rack doesn't make the car twitchy, it sounds like the alignment is way off? I have over 15 yrs of driving these cars, the only time it was really bad was an out of alignment issue. Make sure it's toe-in, even a 3* caster will be stable. What tire pressure do you have?. Should be between 22-24 psi

[Jeff Kleiner]

Your rack doesn't make the car twitchy, it sounds like the alignment is way off? I have over 15 yrs of driving these cars, the only time it was really bad was an out of alignment issue. Make sure it's toe-in, even a 3* caster will be stable. What tire pressure do you have?. Should be between 22-24 psi

Rich,
We've discussed alignment (at great length) in Professor's other thread...I think you even participated

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...-ratio-options

I think once he gets the more easily adjusted upper arms installed and a proper alignment done the car will be transformed.

{Personal opinion...the rack ratio ain't the problem}

Jeff

[ProfessorB]

Widget.jpg
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UPDATE: Things are progressing very slowly. I finally got a "slower ratio" power rack by getting a Unisteer rack....and ordering it thru Summit Racing (cheaper than ordering direct). I also have new SPC upper control arms....I went with the "steel" sleeve because I like steel threads over aluminum. Just my personal choice. As suggested by Weendoggy (who has helped me a LOT), I will apply some never seize to the threads of the control arm before installtion.
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And also....the infamous "Lisman widgets" have arrived, courtesy of Weendoggy, who would not even accept payment for the shipping....and followed it up with plenty of wise counsel during our phone conversations. It will be at least another week before I can assemble all this....stay tuned.

[PG_Cobra]

What rear suspension do you have? 4 link on a Mk1 can cause all sorts of problems. Rubber bushes = Fox Body rear end steering. Hard poly bushes can cause rear end bind. Worth checking before you blame everything on the front suspension. Most likely is the front end.

[ProfessorB]

Agreed. The one thing I know is this is never gonna end. (LOL) Part of the sport. I enjoy wrenching as much as driving. My hours spent in my shop, working on cars and bikes I have either owned or built are some of my fondest memories. I really did want to build one from scratch, although there is just ONE aspect that didn't look fun for a guy like me.....the fiberglass bodywork, and I can't paint and painting ain't cheap. But I really could not have built this much Cobra for the price I paid for an already-built car.
Another part of the fun is what I call the "learning curve". And this forum, with the benefit of members with more knowledge and skill, is a huge asset. Yeah, I know, it's only a Mark 1....i Didn't even know that when I bought it. And as I embark on this learning curve, I'm realizing that the 4-link has some draw backs and limitations. So, I will have plenty of projects to keep me busy in the future....like I said, it's never gonna end. But based on the amount of driving I HAVE done, I feel like the front end is the place to start. I AM curious on what effect the front end upgrade will have, I DO believe it will make a significant difference. Most of y'all stress the importance proper caster over the importance of a slower ratio rack.....which is why I'm also changing the control arms.
Regarding the rear suspension, I'm doing a lot of reading up on it (That learning curve I was speaking of). I do agree that poly bushings are not a good idea on a 4-link because of binding. Regarding the rubber bushings, I have read (on a Mustang website) that the rear end can move up to 2 INCHES sideways. I did wonder if a panhard bar could be added to a 4-link as a cheap improvement. I also looked into the FFR rear suspension upgrade and that will be probably the way to go and next on my list.

[PG_Cobra]

The FF 3 link is the simplest way to get a Panhard Bar.

I had an underfloor exhaust with a muffler across the space that the 3 link needed so I installed a Maximum Motorsports Panhard Bar designed for the Mustang. A ton of work involved. Great result.

If you can fit the FF 3link I'd recommend that approach first.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Professor,
You're mounting the new uppers using the widgets? Yes, it will work but seems more complicated than necessary. You won't need them for adjustment. Why not just weld hard washers onto the slots turning them into holes?

Jeff

[CraigS]

I had a MkI and a MKII and both started as 4 link. They both had the FFR supplied poly bushings in the lower arms. These are not as bad as some since they are actually 3 pieces. The pieces that you can see are short enough that they leave maybe 3/4 inch void between them. They are a fairly soft poly. That void is filled w/ a very hard poly bushing. The hard poly takes the fore and aft loads while the soft poly allows reasonable twisting movement when the body rolls. Talking w/ Gordon Levy at the time, he recommended going w/ stock Ford uppers but get the Mustang Cobra versions. They are rubber but a stiffer rubber than the Mustang GT versions. At some later point you can buy the 3 link kit from FFR. You can definitely install just the panhard bar and brackets while still keeping the 4 links. That is actually how I did my upgrade so I could drive the car while doing the work. The toughest part is installing the frame bracket for the 3rd link.

[ProfessorB]

Professor,
You're mounting the new uppers using the widgets? Yes, it will work but seems more complicated than necessary. You won't need them for adjustment. Why not just weld hard washers onto the slots turning them into holes?

Jeff

Washers are probably "better" but with the widgets I don't need any welding. Also, if for some reason I change my mind on where (along that slot) the "hole" is...I can just adjust the widgets.

[ProfessorB]

Widgies.jpgWidgies.jpgWidgies.jpg
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UPDATE: Things are progressing very slowly but I have finally made a little progress. First, the infamamous "Lisman widgets" have been installed aong with a set of SPC adjustable upper control arms. (I used Never-Seize on the threads as suggested by Weendoggy,) The only problem I encountered was one of the adustble steel sleeves seems to have a slight problem with the internal thread so I will be ordering a replacement sleeve tomorrow, and I want to wait until AFTER I have the new sleeve installed before I hook up the tie rod ends. I DID take a measurement (grease fitting to grease fitting) before removing the old rack. I'll probably start there. My immediate question is: Do I need the car OFF the jackstands and ON it's front tires before I even start to look at alignment measurements? I'm thinking the answer is yes....

[Jeff Kleiner]

Yes. Wheels loaded and ride height set before alignment.

Jeff

[ProfessorB]

Align1.jpg
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Update: Progress has been painfully slow due to "life" getting in the way. Both SPC upper control arms have been assembled and installed. As was suggested, I shortened each "rear" sleeve by 1/4 inch at each end...and also shortened the corresponding threaded pieces (1/4 inch each) so they would not "butt" inside the shortened sleeve. I used the grease fittngs as measuring points. From the "rear" grease fitting to the ball joint grease fitting was 8.5 inches and from the "front" grease fitting to the ball joint grease fitting was 9.75 inches. I also installed the tie rod ends and set the "straight ahead" alignment using the string method and set the tow-in at 1/16 inch. Using a caster/camber gauge and turn plates, the camber is negative .5 degrees and the caster is positive 9 degrees. Passenger side is done....driver side still needs alignment. I achieved success by the trial and error method. At first, I was a little confused about what to adjust (front sleeve, rear sleeve, or both) and how much to adjust it. It took quite a while, but I can say I took my time and enjoyed it. I learned to make smaller changes as I progressed and ended up exactly where I wanted to be. Tomorrow I will do the other side. I still won't be done (going to change the power steering pump) but I'm at least making some progress.

[CraigS]

You have the alignment process down. You are exactly right in that as you get closer you make smaller changes. A hint. I leave the jam nuts loose at the beginning, but as I get closer I start tightening them after each change. Not very tight, just a light push on the wrench. I found that if I tightened them only after the last adjustment, the nuts will very slightly change the length of the arm. Also depending how your day goes, it can get really painful to exactly match both sides. Sometimes I will leave the right side caster 1/8-1/4deg higher than the left. This will help counter the crown in the road causing the car to drift to the right. Same for camber, an extra 1/8deg of - camber on the right is fine. BTW I just looked at your pic and see your impact wrench w/ socket. Get yourself a torque stick and never need to torque lug nuts again.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/GEARWREN...9650/327141221
You can get them individually to so order either 80 or 100#. They are also available w/ the socket built in but I find them limiting on some wheels because the socket is a larger diameter than will fit some styles.