More progress made on the body : )

[crash]

Stig- Certainly wasn't trying to "toss it back at you" or anything like that. It was just unclear from your previous post what you had tried in terms of contacts with these folks, and I was playing the devils advocate. That's all. Sounds like there was definitly a communication issue with Jesse, and if the engine was fouling plugs left and right...well, that's set up pretty rich.

I'm scratching my head about the Ford comment too.

You must be dying to hear this thing run. (?)

I know I would be.

[The Stig]

You must be dying to hear this thing run. (?)

I know I would be.

Yep. It's coming. We drove up to Greensboro this morning. My wife decided she wanted a new car, so we went up to look at one that she read about. We spent about an Hour listening to the salesman coming up with multiple ways to piss me off. The "Crown" family of Car dealerships seem to leave quite a lot to be desired... I think I'll stick with Rick Hendricks.

When we finished up there, we drove over to Whitby's to see if they had the car back. But no one was home.

So we drove back to Charlotte.

[VD2021]

Yep. It's coming. We drove up to Greensboro this morning. My wife decided she wanted a new car, so we went up to look at one that she read about. We spent about an Hour listening to the salesman coming up with multiple ways to piss me off. The "Crown" family of Car dealerships seem to leave quite a lot to be desired... I think I'll stick with Rick Hendricks.

When we finished up there, we drove over to Whitby's to see if they had the car back. But no one was home.

So we drove back to Charlotte.

My ordered my last two new vehicle purchases. Less hassle and I got prcisely what I wanted.

My cousin is the sales manager of Vann York Honda in High Point. If the Vann York Auto Mall sales the model I can put you in contact with him.

[The Stig]

My ordered my last two new vehicle purchases. Less hassle and I got prcisely what I wanted.

My cousin is the sales manager of Vann York Honda in High Point. If the Vann York Auto Mall sales the model I can put you in contact with him.

Actually, I think I have her talked into keeping the CLS and being happy with it for a couple of years. If I replace that car, I'd prefer that it would be with a CLS63, but she doesn't like quite that much power. So after we drove a couple of cars, and then she got back into the Merc, she realized that she has a pretty nice (and safe) car.

So, once again, life is good. (But I'll keep your offer in mind).

[The Stig]

As I mentioned a few posts back, Jeff has the chassis at his trusted Dyno-Tuner's shop. Today he sent an IM telling me that the 2nd pull (with a mild tune) is now at 362 at the rear wheels. Since there is the theoretical 15% payment to the drive train, I guess it's somewhere around 415 @ the crank.

Part of me is saying to myself that I've reached my goal of 400-450, since I'm at 415 at the crank. But the other side of me is saying that my targets need to be measured at the Rear Wheels. If that's the case, to see 425 at the rear wheels, I'd need to be making somewhere around 475 at the crank. When we start getting in that range, I start to feel that it becomes wasted effort (and Dollars).

The tuner is going to hit it again tomorrow, to see what he can get, but I'm wondering if I really want to go much higher or not.

What does all the Dyno speak really mean? Crank Horse Power, Rear Wheel Horse Power, Ford Dyno, Chevy Dyno etc, etc, etc. Oh yeah, I've also heard that when you run a chevy engine on a dyno that typically runs Fords, you're actually looking at about another 15% above what the numbers show. If that's so, then I'm at about 478 @ the crank...

All I really know for sure, is that I don't really know what the engine is doing yet. Jeff said "It's gonna be SWEET!" So I just nod my head and smile.

One thing I can say with certainty, is that it's making me a little nervous to be running that brand new engine for all it's worth before it's ever even touched any asphalt... Especially when Jeff tells me about his collection of piston chunks that he'd like to show me when i come back up next time...

What are your thoughts? I'd really like to know.

[mmaragos]

I think there is some mis-communication - I don't think it is Ford vs. Chevy. I think that they are using a Mustang dyno (which is a brand of dyno). These dynos read lower than the other popular brand of dynos (DynoJet). I can't fully explain the differences, but the Mustang dyno is generally accepted as being more 'real-world' than a DynoJet. It takes into account vehicle weight and aerodynamic force. But regardless of dyno, they are both just tools that can be used to tune your engine. An increase in HP after tuning is an increase regardless. Don't get too caught up on the number, especially if you are on a Mustang dyno. The proof will be when the car is on the road.

[The Stig]

I think there is some mis-communication - I don't think it is Ford vs. Chevy. I think that they are using a Mustang dyno (which is a brand of dyno). These dynos read lower than the other popular brand of dynos (DynoJet). I can't fully explain the differences, but the Mustang dyno is generally accepted as being more 'real-world' than a DynoJet.

LOL!!! Now I get it! I didn't realize "Mustang" was simply the name of the Dyno that this guy uses. Duhhh. I thought it was a type dyno that shops use to Tune Mustangs on... I guess this is just another one of those "live & learn" days. Sometimes you can really feel like an idiot as you go through this "learning" process.

Thanks for the explanation! It sounds as though it's being tuned on the Dyno that makes the most sense for what I'm after then.

[Stage7]

As I mentioned a few posts back, Jeff has the chassis at his trusted Dyno-Tuner's shop. Today he sent an IM telling me that the 2nd pull (with a mild tune) is now at 362 at the rear wheels. Since there is the theoretical 15% payment to the drive train, I guess it's somewhere around 415 @ the crank.

Part of me is saying to myself that I've reached my goal of 400-450, since I'm at 415 at the crank. But the other side of me is saying that my targets need to be measured at the Rear Wheels. If that's the case, to see 425 at the rear wheels, I'd need to be making somewhere around 475 at the crank. When we start getting in that range, I start to feel that it becomes wasted effort (and Dollars).

The tuner is going to hit it again tomorrow, to see what he can get, but I'm wondering if I really want to go much higher or not.

What does all the Dyno speak really mean? Crank Horse Power, Rear Wheel Horse Power, Ford Dyno, Chevy Dyno etc, etc, etc. Oh yeah, I've also heard that when you run a chevy engine on a dyno that typically runs Fords, you're actually looking at about another 15% above what the numbers show. If that's so, then I'm at about 478 @ the crank...

All I really know for sure, is that I don't really know what the engine is doing yet. Jeff said "It's gonna be SWEET!" So I just nod my head and smile.

One thing I can say with certainty, is that it's making me a little nervous to be running that brand new engine for all it's worth before it's ever even touched any asphalt... Especially when Jeff tells me about his collection of piston chunks that he'd like to show me when i come back up next time...

What are your thoughts? I'd really like to know.

Hi Stig...congrats on your progress. Your car looks fantastic. I have been hoping to catch you at Allan's one of these days when you are traveling.

A couple of things:

1) Dyno differences: Dyno's are not brand loyal, but there are differences between different brands of dynos (not to mention whether or not it's calibrated-correction factors used, etc--these are things controlled by the dyno operator however). The 2 most popular dynos are Dynojets and Mustang Dynos (not affiliated with Ford or Mustang the car-it only shares the same name). The Dynojet is the "standard reference" comparing
rwhp #'s to other cars/builds on the internet (not that you can truly compare #'s from dyno's across the country or even dyno's down the street from each other really. Dyno calibration/operator consistency/weather/altitude/correction factors etc all make differences inevitable.). The Dynojet is an "inertia dyno". The rear wheels (or all wheels if 4wd) spin a drum of known mass and measures acceleration in rpm.

The Mustang Dyno is a "load bearing dyno". You also spin a drum of known mass, however it has the ability to simulate real world driving conditions (one reason it's probably the best for initial pre-WOT tuning for radical combinations). You can also run a Mustang dyno as an inertia dyno and vice versa, but generally Dynojets are run in inertia mode, and Mustang Dynos are run load bearing using an "Eddy Current" electromagnetic motor that can apply drag on the drum based on information entered in the computer. When run in their most common modes, Mustang dyno's almost always show lower rwhp #'s than Dynojets do in inertia mode. How much less? It's impossible to put a % to it as it's not a linear difference. It varies. A lot depends on the dyno operator as well. I used a Mustang dyno while taking the Advanced HP Tuner's course in Florida, and there are many more parameters being entered in during setup than a Dynojet. It was easy to get a 30-50hp swing with simple changes in setup data before ever making a run. The Dyno operator is critical. You generally don't see Mustang Dyno #'s in peoples signatures on the net, they are mostly Dynojet #'s or dyno's like the Dynojet. Doesn't make either right or wrong, but it does make it different. The differences I have personally witnessed between Mustang and Dynojet #'s of known cars (my own and friends), have been on the order of 7-13% depending on the combo. Take those % with a grain of salt. As I mentioned, it can be different for many combos. Also be very clear on the correction factor they are using if they are using any at all: Actual vs. STP/STD vs. SAE - In general engine dynos testing aftermarket engines use STD/STP correction unless SAE is requested (oem use SAE), and Chassis dynos use SAE (*normally*). Very important to know the difference and make sure you are comparing apples to apples.

2) Drivetrain losses: Placing a % on how much power the driveline uses before putting power to the pavement is only valid to that particular known engine/flywheel-clutch/driveshaft (if equipped)/differential-axle/rotor/wheel-tire combination on that particular engine dyno and chassis dyno. Like dyno differences, it's not linear. For example, it's "basically correct" to say c6 z06's have an 11% driveline loss for a bone stock car. (505hp SAE crank vs. 450ish SAE rwhp depending on the car, day, and dyno). However, when the ls7 is modded and makes 650 hp SAE on the engine dyno, and 600rwhp SAE on the dynojet, what's the % difference now? If it was still 11%, the rwhp would have been ~575-580rwhp. But it's not. Now the same exact driveline has a 50hp loss from the engine to the pavement vs. roughly a 55hp loss stock. The drivetrain loss has mostly stayed constant and the 5hp difference could have been due to a slightly lighter clutch, or just variance in the dyno. This example is a real build that happened btw, not theoretical. I only typed it to illustrate that assigning %'s for driveline losses isn't accurate once you start modifying the car.

Your Ls2 is 400hp stock. You should gain 20+hp (conservative) from the kooks and more performance oriented tuning, so expecting ~420 SAE engine hp is totally reasonable. I don't know the driveline loss with the g50/clutch combo you have, but if it was in an otherwise stock c6 you should see ~365-370rwhp SAE. A mild cam swap would put you well over 400rwhp SAE if you wanted to go that route. Even high 400's if you went a little more radical.

Hopefully this sheds light on some things and helps shape your expectations. Best of luck buddy and I can't wait to see your beautiful beast once it's finished.

[The Stig]

Hi Stig...congrats on your progress. Your car looks fantastic. I have been hoping to catch you at Allan's one of these days when you are traveling.

Best of luck buddy and I can't wait to see your beautiful beast once it's finished.

Stage,

It's great to hear from you again. I'm not sure when I'll get back up to Allan's. The project that I had been working on in Southbury, finally wrapped up. Looks like I may be heading to OH (Dublin area) for a while, but I'm not sure yet.

Your post is full of really good information regarding the differences and use of different Dyno Applications. That's exactly what I needed to see in order to start to understand what dyno-tuning really means, and what the realistic results should be.

I'm not really sure what settings they used, STD/STP, SAE, or what. But jeff just called to say that the final pull netted 396 hp at the rear wheels. He says that it's very docile, starts right up and goes into a smooth idle, and then goes like crazy when you step on the gas. And that's exactly what I was after!

I believe "It's Gonna Be Sweet"!

So I'm planning to take my 5 gallon bucket (to sit on) and my driving shoes to Whitby's on Friday.

I'm Stoked!