818 Update and Subi-Fest Tomorrow

[kach22i]

BipDBo,.....The alfa you posted looks much better but I can't see that design working with the roll bar and braces.

The closest submittal to that Alfa I can think of is my own rather retro "Scheme-7" which was influenced by FFR's 65 Spyder.

See the first few images at the top of this page:
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...ign/?start=100

Roll bars could be worked into this targa design pretty easily in my opinion, but it's all apples to oranges as a comparison.

[D2W]

Yes I like the idea of a Targa bar to cover the rollbar and a flat deck area that stays in place when the rear is tilted or removed. I always thought Xabier's design would work this way.

[imom]

The targa bar seems a bit old school to me. Most modern cars including mine has double loops, one for the passenger and one for the driver. In this particular to this 818 design, it's got two humps on the back, why not make double hump loops as the roll bar protection? If it's a coupe or Targa, I can understand the Targa bar as it follows the shape of the car. A convertible roadster looks pretty bad with Targa bar.

On a different note, I got a feeling FF5 will go into hibernation mode again until closer to sema. Instead of speculation...I'm just going back to silently checking on this website occasionally. Don't like the idea of playing the guessing game of what FF5 is doing with the 818. Just have to wait and see.

[BipDBo]

The closest submittal to that Alfa I can think of is my own rather retro "Scheme-7" which was influenced by FFR's 65 Spyder.

See the first few images at the top of this page:
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...ign/?start=100

Roll bars could be worked into this targa design pretty easily in my opinion, but it's all apples to oranges as a comparison.

I posted the concept Alfa Romeo not to say that it should be done this way, but to show that camel humps can be done without being so freaking ugly. The Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky had decent looking humps. In general, smaller is better, I think. Also, I think that big problem is that they are trying to cover that bar with a hump that is symmetric to the seats I think it would be better to ditch the humps and go with something more like this:
1977 Corvette.jpg

[kach22i]

I posted the concept Alfa Romeo not to say that it should be done this way, but to show that camel humps can be done without being so freaking ugly.

The point about the targa is taken, but you have to admit they work.

I'm glad I posted the 65 Spyder with extra humpage, because I think FFR may have to increase or reshape the humps to match the reconfigured roll bar.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...%20and%20Ends/


Yes ,the above overlay is terribly inaccurate, but if you know the Chassis and the body substrate...............and put them all together in your head, you just may agree with my conclusion.

Sorry BipDBo, those humps just may be getting bigger on us.

[BipDBo]

Sorry BipDBo, those humps just may be getting bigger on us.

kill-all-the-humps.jpg

[bnr32jason]

I like the humps, but the rest of the design I dunno.

I was really hoping for something "redonkulous."

Something like a smaller Gumpert Apollo. I mean if I'm going to buy a kit car I don't want it to look like anything else on the road. This design just seems a little too pedestrian. If this ends up being near the final design I guess I'm going back to getting the Superlite Razor.

[Niburu]

there is always the possibilty for a third party designed and built bodies
I might consider paying a couple grand extra for a Xavier or RodneyO body

[shim2]

there is always the possibilty for a third party designed and built bodies
I might consider paying a couple grand extra for a Xavier or RodneyO body

+1 The Xavier design is my favorite.

[kach22i]

+1 The Xavier design is my favorite.

There are some slight clues of X's incorporated into the last image Dave posted.

Sorry that I cropped off the front valance, both take a dip up in the middle.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...%20and%20Ends/

[Xusia]

Kach, seeing the 2 side by side makes me think that even though the first design is a roadster, if it indeed has the humps and the single hoop roll bar, it will look a LOT like a targa. In fact, it seems to me the work required to produce a targa body based on the roadster would be limited to the section above the engine and behind the cockpit. In other words, very little work!

I hope this means a targa would be along shortly after the roadster!

[shim2]

Yea I see what you mean. I don't like the side vent. Looks too much like MK3 MR2. Also the fender flare, again too much like the MK3 mr2. Other than that it is very nice and I definitely wouldn't mind having one in my garage. Hopefully they do a targa top in the near future after the roadster.

[Xusia]

What's with all the MR2 hating?!? I've never owned one, but I've always liked the looks of them. I'd prefer the 818 look more exotic than an MR2 (my personal preference), but that doesn't make the MR2 ugly...

[shim2]

What's with all the MR2 hating?!? I've never owned one, but I've always liked the looks of them. I'd prefer the 818 look more exotic than an MR2 (my personal preference), but that doesn't make the MR2 ugly...

I had an mk2. Most MR2 owners strongly dislike the MK3. I never really liked the styling of it. Too girly IMO. I think MK2 MR2 is one of the best styled cars Toyota ever made.

[keys2heaven]

If this is the body.....well, I don't know what to think.

I'll defer my opinion until I see a finished product.

[D2W]

There are some slight clues of X's incorporated into the last image Dave posted.

Sorry that I cropped off the front valance, both take a dip up in the middle.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...%20and%20Ends/

Interesting observations that I hadn't noticed before. There are some definate similiarities but I think the main difference is the balance in proportions between the front and rear. Xabier's has an eveness front to rear while Jim's looks much heavier in the rear, which I don't care for.

[BipDBo]

Interesting observations that I hadn't noticed before. There are some definate similiarities but I think the main difference is the balance in proportions between the front and rear. Xabier's has an eveness front to rear while Jim's looks much heavier in the rear, which I don't care for.

Part of that is aerodynamics and performance. they wanted a low front end, and it looks like they even increased the angle of the radiator to allow for an even lower hood than the design template would allow. Xabier's car has a much higher hood, and to me, looks like a front engine car.

Most of the "heavyness" of the rear end that you speak of is due to the perspective setting on their CAD software. The red car rendering is done with 0 perspective, as if you are looking at it from a mile away through a telescope. Your eye expects to see perspective, and it plays tricks on you, making the rear end look bigger.

[PhyrraM]

Without commenting on FFRs descions on what is currently presented to us, I never got anything but mid-engined out of Xabier's rederings.

[shim2]

Part of that is aerodynamics and performance. they wanted a low front end, and it looks like they even increased the angle of the radiator to allow for an even lower hood than the design template would allow. Xabier's car has a much higher hood, and to me, looks like a front engine car.

Most of the "heavyness" of the rear end that you speak of is due to the perspective setting on their CAD software. The red car rendering is done with 0 perspective, as if you are looking at it from a mile away through a telescope. Your eye expects to see perspective, and it plays tricks on you, making the rear end look bigger.

That's interesting. I never knew that.

[305mouse]

I don't think that Jim's design is what we'll see as a final product. Nobody trolling sites wants to see a bodyless go cart. Just us who have a vested interest in every aspect of the car. They have to show some sort of a body and in my mind they want to keep everything hidden for a big reveal, then it's HOF time. Jim's design was scanned in, they took the little model of Jim's design with them to SEMA. It's just to show for a reference. I saw a BRZ in person for the first time today and I have faith that this will be more HOF than that. It might be misguided faith, but I have it. I think the different rad position will make it easier for the other soon-to-come swatch watch designs.

[Twinspool]

I think MK2 MR2 is one of the best styled cars Toyota ever made.

That's because it was done by Pininfarina.

Italians can make anything look good. It takes Ze Germans to make it competitive.

[Flamshackle]

That's because it was done by Pininfarina.

Italians can make anything look good. It takes Ze Germans to make it competitive.

Haahaha! This is the truth but thanks for the laugh :~)

[Benji]

That's because it was done by Pininfarina.

Italians can make anything look good. It takes Ze Germans to make it competitive.

*COUGH*You mean the British*COUGH*

[flytosail]

That's because it was done by Pininfarina.

Italians can make anything look good. It takes Ze Germans to make it competitive.

Well, they do have the Nürburgring. James May will not be happy.

[kach22i]

Most of the "heavyness" of the rear end that you speak of is due to the perspective setting on their CAD software. The red car rendering is done with 0 perspective, as if you are looking at it from a mile away through a telescope. Your eye expects to see perspective, and it plays tricks on you, making the rear end look bigger.

As I've noted elsewhere, the rear wheel opening is larger, noticeably larger than the front. Is this a distortion of perspective (a computer setting) or an intentional design element for larger wheels in the back?

It is very odd, and if the rear wheel openings are larger (from a bad setting), might not the whole rear end and haunch be larger too?

Things are supposed to get smaller in perspective as the distance increase, however I recently took a photo where this is not true. The Dodge Dart below has wheel openings of equal size, yet the one nearest the camera appears to be smaller. Strange, very strange. My 10X zoom was set at the max setting.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...igan/?start=20


Stock image from Internet - side view:
http://3d-car-shows.com/2012/dodge-d...oit-auto-show/
Dodge-Dart_5-634x421.jpg

[NonProfit]

Things are supposed to get smaller in perspective as the distance increase, however I recently took a photo where this is not true. The Dodge Dart below has wheel openings of equal size, yet the one nearest the camera appears to be smaller. Strange, very strange. My 10X zoom was set at the max setting.

I think there is something wonky about the Dart, here the rear wheel is further away and you get the same effect. 2013-dodge-dart-photo-435905-s-520x318.jpg

[Twinspool]

*COUGH*You mean the British*COUGH*

Close, Lotus co-developed a chassis, M90 or x-100 or the like but it never went to production.

[kach22i]

I think there is something wonky about the Dart, here the rear wheel is further away and you get the same effect. 2013-dodge-dart-photo-435905-s-520x318.jpg

That's not the same effect, that is the normal receding size effect from perspective.

I think there is something about focal length, zoom focal length which can distort things. And it is this distortion we are seeing in the red chassis perspective.

If you compare the side view of the red chassis to the perspective you can see this distortion. In the side view, the rear haunch is not that great, the nose not that low, and the rear wheel well is the same arch size as the front.

[apexanimal]

Hopefully they do a targa top in the near future after the roadster.

dave said in another thread that this was the plan

[BipDBo]

If you compare the side view of the red chassis to the perspective you can see this distortion. In the side view, the rear haunch is not that great, the nose not that low, and the rear wheel well is the same arch size as the front.

This profile shot shows wheel archs fornt and rear the same size,...:
side-old.jpg
but I think that the later revised versions had slightly larger rear wheel archs in the back, as seen on the faded outlines here:
front-new.jpg
I measured the wheel arches on this isometric rendering in autocad, and it looks like the top of the rear arch is around 1" higher than on the front, which agrees with the faded front view.
iso-new.jpg


Also, I think that some of the percieved "heavyness" of the rear end has to do with the presence of those humps and the lack of a windshield. I think that a windshield would bring the look of it back ito balance.

Anyway, this is probably much ado about nothing. Dave said that he flushed Jim's design, so my guess is that they will go something entirely different rather than an evolution of this. If they do go with this, however, I think that it will be a lot better looking than we currently think. I think that a finished product of this design would look pretty good in full scale with windshield, wheels, etc. The changes they've made from Jim's original model to this, in my opinion, make it look radically better. If they are going with this evolution of Jim's / Xabier's design, I'm sure that there will be even more improvement between what we see here and the finish product.

[NonProfit]

That's not the same effect, that is the normal receding size effect from perspective.

Not to completely hijack the thread, but if this is caused by optics, can you post a photo of another vehicle demonstrating this effect?

[BipDBo]

Speaking of Targa, which seems to be a popular idea: What if, as I proposed earlier, they ditched the humps, and enclosed the single roll bar like this:
1977 Corvette.jpg
Instead of having removable hard roof panels, however, there was a removable soft top between the windshield and the roll bar. Under the rool bar, there could be either a permanent lexan or removable monofilm window. Would such a car be a Targa or a Roadster?

This is really my ideal design, except I would like to do this on a coupe frame. The space frame would go over the cockpit, connecting the outer corners of the roolbar and the windshield forming a protective cage and adding stiffness, but the top would be removable to let in the sun.

[skullandbones]

Like your idea. I also like the Targa and in this case it would cover some supports that will not look good if left exposed (design dilemma). The Mk roadster does not have this problem. Some people have even removed the roll bars but not in this project. I could live with a rag top as the construction would be very simple to fab. The added HOF would be automatic. Recent polls have supported the Targa choice, as well. Maybe the subsequent releases have something like this in mind. The 9.9k limit has put some serious constraints on these project that we are not privy to but I would love to be a "fly on the wall" to hear some of those conversations. Thanks, WEK.

[kach22i]

1. I measured the wheel arches on this isometric rendering in autocad, and it looks like the top of the rear arch is around 1" higher than on the front, which agrees with the faded front view............

2. Also, I think that some of the percieved "heavyness" of the rear end has to do with the presence of those humps and the lack of a windshield. I think that a windshield would bring the look of it back ito balance.

RE #1: Great observations, just eyeballing it the rear tires look to be about 1/2" taller and 1" wider than the front ones. Makes sense that the rear opening would also be larger, just not quite as large as my cut & paste and hand drawn fill-in renderings of the perspective show.

RE #2: Yes, true but it is very pronounced in the modified drawing I did as well.

Nonprofit, I think one example (the Dart) of reversed perspective due to focal length is enough. It is a freakish thing and pretty rare unless intentional. Maybe the better versed 3D computer rendering guys can toss a few examples our way, not my area of expertise.

[Xusia]

Instead of having removable hard roof panels, however, there was a removable soft top between the windshield and the roll bar. Under the rool bar, there could be either a permanent lexan or removable monofilm window. Would such a car be a Targa or a Roadster?

It would still be a targa - which is a body style, not a roof material choice - as defined by the the side pillars and roll bar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targa_top

The 818 chassis - in my opinion - BEGS to be covered in a targa body style. It would be a good looking way to cover the roll bar (although an exposed roll bar can look good too!), and provide a bit better weatherization than a pure soft top, along with a better rear window (usually). If the rear window was removable, that would sweeten the deal!

This is really my ideal design, except I would like to do this on a coupe frame. The space frame would go over the cockpit, connecting the outer corners of the roolbar and the windshield forming a protective cage and adding stiffness, but the top would be removable to let in the sun.

Technically, this is not a targa; it's a coupe with a very large, removable sunroof!

[John Buzoianu]

In my opinion the CAD model could be a little less conservative and a little more exotic especially around the front fascia and the door... the front fascia seems a little too ricer to me, and the door area seems a little bland. If you were to incorporate some more of Xabiers design I think it could drastically improve it. Good job so far.

[wallace18]

On the Factory Five Website I saw a blog on the subie event. I has Dave give some details of dates for body and production. I not sure if anyone else saw this Blog. It was interesting.

[FFR-ADV]

This design could make a really nice Targa Coupe melding in elements from Vmans design, with upper air intakes playing off of the side air intakes when the coupe design starts.

Jim Vman Composite Coupe.jpg

Cheers!

[kach22i]

This design .........

An interesting study.

[CallawayTurner]

So in patiently waiting for the body design(s) to come out, the go-kart has been built for a while. Hopefully some testing has been performed using it without the body to make sure everything there is rock solid, but I'd like to see some action shots of it in the parking lot running or something.