I've already mentioned setting the Koni's to their softest settings as a start on improving the ride of the '33. ( Koni Shocks ) This week I got a chance to get the next phase started. I spent some time on the phone with the folks from Eibach and then ordered some "Tender Springs" from one of their dealers.
These things are actually more expensive than the standard springs, but what the heck, it's my butt I'm trying to protect so maybe making my wallet thinner will also help!
Front Shocks/Springs
Here's what the suspension looks like with stock parts:
Two 8" long 500#/in rated linear springs. The front shocks have a 4" stroke.
The pressure on the spring in the FFR suspension configuration is about 450 to 500 pounds at proper ride height. The standard spring compresses about an inch, just as you would expect. Further compression starts to build spring load rather dramatically. The spring would potentially be loaded to 2000 lbs if the full stroke of the shock were used.
Eibach can come up with a "progressive" springing arrangement by stacking two springs of different rating. Because the original spring used up essentially the entire length available, I chose to buy new 500#/in springs that were 6" long to gain the overall length needed. In this case, the tender spring needed to be reacting first with the main spring taking over when the tender spring reaches full bind or "block height."
Image shows assembly "unloaded" with the car on jack stands.
Even as the lighter rated spring is being compressed, it's transferring some load to the main spring. Eibach recommends the tender spring be mounted at the "frame" end of the shock absorber, so in the case of the '33, that meant at the lower end. A nice coupler fits between the main and tender springs to keep them aligned. I plan on putting a nylon tie around both springs and the coupler to keep them from separating unintentionally. The 6" spring gives us room for the tender and the tender spring gives a more compliant ride but allows the heavier spring to do its work under hard cornering. There's still a nominal amount of ride height adjustment (lowering) available.
When the car was back on the pavement, I could push down on the car's frame and see the tender spring flexing and see the red main spring responding, too. Most of the motion was being absorbed by the black tender spring. In this case, the red main spring is compressed about 1" as before while the tender compresses between 1 1/2" and 1 5/8". The tender spring reaches full bind at 675# with a compression of 2 1/4". The additional ~3/4" of travel on the "softer" spring is where the comfort is improved.
Next, Rear Shocks/springs........................
__________________
Tom
#007 Street Rod; #2911SP Challenge Racer (Sold, 06/2010)
V.I.R.U.S.
(Very Immature Racers of the United States)
At the back end I was able to re-use the original 8" 350#/in linear springs as there was lots of room for adjustment. The rear shocks have a 5.47" stroke and the extended length is 17.63". Assembled, the "upper" groove for the spring retainer is used and there's still lots of room. To be sure, however, we moved the retainer to the bottom groove in the shock body and then stacked the tender spring on top of the main 8" spring.
(left rear coil-over shock)
On the left side of the car it was impossible to make the switch without removing the shock assembly from the car. It's fussy work getting the top bold out. As you can see, there's still plenty of adjustability here even with the tender spring in place. Again at Eibach's suggestion, the tender spring is added at the "frame" end of the shock. Here it's on top. A nylon tie will be used to keep the coupler and two springs from separating.
The right side assembly I was able to do without removing the shock from the car. Only the bottom bolt needed to be removed.
I've only had a quick ride around the block (over some pretty old pavement) and the outside temp was just 8°F, but I can verify this has improved the ride comfort at both ends of the car. It's removed the "nervous" aspect of the ride and I would imagine it being quite a bit better when the outside temperature is more civilized!
This car's never going to glide over potholes with aplomb, but at least with this setup, each pavement joint isn't going to jar your teeth. Unfortunately with the winter weather closed in around Wisconsin, I don't believe I'll get a really good chance to fully evaluate the changes for a while.
Best regards,
__________________
Tom
#007 Street Rod; #2911SP Challenge Racer (Sold, 06/2010)
V.I.R.U.S.
(Very Immature Racers of the United States)
NOTE Added 11/22/2010: The car now has around 3500 miles on it with the new spring setup. When I changed front Wheels the new ones had more offset and put that end of the lever further from the fulcrum of the front suspension. This essentially "flattened" the front Tender Springs.
To save yourself some effort and money, I now suggest not using the method described below on the Front End of the car. There's just not enough improvement there with the suggested springs. The optional "progressive rate" springs I've not yet tried. They might work on the front end and would work okay on the rear as well. If I do more testing with the progressive tender, I'll post the info here.
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Original Note Below:
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Here's the Eibach parts I ordered and the info to make sense of it all:
Front
Part #................Spring......Rate.....Free Length......Travel......Block (bind) Height......Max Load at Block Height
Original 8"............Main.....500#/in........8".................?.................... .?.......... .............2000 lbs (full shock stroke)
(Not used with this modification)
Replacement combo from Eibach
..........................Spring......Rate.....Fre e Length......Travel......Block (bind) Height......Max Load at Block Height
Expected result, combination should allow Tender spring to be useful before full bind.
Tender will be compressed to about 67% of capacity under static load.
Should leave 225 lbs of additional load and 3/4" travel before full bind of the tender.
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Rear
Part #
Koni Shock...........................................17 .63"..........5.47" stroke
Reuse original 8"....Spring......Rate.....Free Length......Travel......Block (bind) Height......Max Load at Block Height
Expected result is partial compression of Tender spring and Main to static load. The 300#/In spring will compress most under normal driving while the main will carry heavier acceleration and cornering loads.
Vehicle Weight
Front axle = 1160 lbs; Rear axle = 1260 lbs (weights are with 190 driver in car)
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There's one possible part that could work at both ends of the car. It's a variable rate spring #0200.250.0550. It's a progressive rate from 250#/in up to 550#/in. It's 3.5" tall free height, travel of 2" with a block height of 1.5". It has a max. loading at full bind of 865 lbs. It looks like it might be a good unit for both ends of the car, but I didn't try this one.
The short bit of driving I've done shows improvement over the individual linear rate springs. Unfortunately the weather's closed in for much more testing before next year.
Since these springs aren't exactly "free" and this change is pretty simple even after the car's fully assembled, I'd suggest you try driving your Street Rod before spending the $$$. If it seems to ride like a go-kart, then this is a reasonable solution for taming the ride a bit.
Total cost of part: $690.00 including shipping.
If anyone else does try this, I'd like to hear your own opinion of the change in ride character.
Best regards,
P.S. - the only way I could get the columns to line up was to put a photo in here wide enough to keep the text from wrapping!!! :-)
__________________
Tom
#007 Street Rod; #2911SP Challenge Racer (Sold, 06/2010)
V.I.R.U.S.
(Very Immature Racers of the United States)
We had our January Thaw, but it came with a lot of rain two weeks ago. That's both the good news and the bad. The bad was that I couldn't get the car out to try the suspension changes because of the foul weather, the good news is the rain rinsed off essentially all the road salt.
So, today with the weather around 24°F, clear, dry and salt free roads everywhere I ventured out in the '33 to see how the combination spring set-up works on the car. The BondMobile (#007) had been in a 60°F garage at Salvaggio Automotive Design on Maritime Drive in Port Washington, WI so the shocks weren't stone cold. (But I'm sure they didn't get any warmer as I drove!) First I took it around the block on mostly good pavement with minor frost heave from the winter so far. It drives just fine on this stuff and really didn't seem much different from before. Maybe a bit kinder to the hinder, but at 25 MPH it's hard to tell.
Next I headed down WI State Hwy 32 toward Grafton on pavement which is 15 year old concrete. This is 55 MPH roadway and the joints this time of year are bumpy and noisy even in "your father's oldsmobile." Frost is amazing stuff. The ride here was far better than before - even though the roadway is seasonally worse than the last time I drove on it. The car's still remotely nervous, but no where near as it was before. The car still tracks and steers very well; no change in manners. The main thing is that it doesn't come unglued from the pavement over bumps as it did before.
From the Grafton intersection of Hwy 32 and I-43 I headed north on the Interstate. This section of road has significant joint bumps at this time of year (again, frost heave) and even my Passat complains. At around 70 MPH the car stays nicely settled, the nose stays better planted and the car drives more like a modern sports car - firm but not a kidney bleeder. Before I'd watch the front edge of the hood bobble up and down over every bump and pavement joint.
At Exit 100 at the north end of Port Washington I got back onto State Hwy 32 at the north end of the town. Most of this road is 25 MPH and very new and smooth. However, once into downtown, I headed out of town again via Chestnut road (probably the worst pavement in town) and down County "C" toward Sunset Drive, then back to Maritime Drive in the industrial park. Both Chestnut and Division (Cty "C") are near the end of their useful lives and are scheduled for complete reconstruction next year. Needless to say that at 25 MPH this isn't kind even in a Suburban, let alone the '33. That said, the car took the bumps WAY better than before. The car used to barely handle this section, bumping over all the potholes, sunken pavement and "gator back" ancient asphalt. Every bump was felt all the way to one's elbows through the steering.
Round trip - about 15 to 20 miles at speeds from 25 to around 75, on aged asphalt to new concrete.
I can't see any downside to the changes made. The ride and general comfort improvement don't seem to have any handling drawbacks. Unlike changing to a softer anti-sway bar, or reducing spring rate there doesn't seem to be any additional body roll. A day at the track before and after would have been nice, but "Winter" happens!
If I keep the '03 Pumpkin Racer and use it as a Street car, I'll probably give its suspension the same sort of treatment. There's a lot of difference in how these two cars drive with the extra 22" of wheelbase, but linear springs in both cars produce a level of uncivilized and unnecessary harshness.
So, in conclusion, if the '33 Street Rod's ride isn't what you always wanted, these Eibach tender springs are a very reasonable solution. I would love to hear from some others on this topic relative to their own perception of the car's ride. Further, if you know anyone with an FFR street snake in need of better ride, this concept should work there as well. The part numbers might not be the same, but for any given diameter spring, Eibach seems to have tender springs available.
Best regards,
__________________
Tom
#007 Street Rod; #2911SP Challenge Racer (Sold, 06/2010)
V.I.R.U.S.
(Very Immature Racers of the United States)
Okay, I got a message relative to the '33's ride with the tender springs and it got me busy thinking again. (Thanks Terry for stimulating further action)
On the lead provided by JWilkins:
As you have said, the Eibach tender springs are pretty costly ($102.99 ea. at Summit). Did you consider any of the QA1 progressive springs? They have a 11", 250 - 350# spring for $59.95 ea. at Summit or a 10", 225 - 475# spring for $49.95 ea. Just thinking about the rears at this point. I am also building a '33 and have really appreciated your detailed comments. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
.....I checked out the QA1 springs available from Summit. I've ordered their HAL12-175-350 progressive rate springs for the back of the Bondmobile (#007). These are 12" long and variable rate from 175#/in up to 350#/in for the last inch of travel. I don't have bind height etc for this spring. I had moved the spring thread perch from the middle of the shock to the bottom when I added the tender springs. There's plenty of room for a 12" long spring.
These are going to act different from what I have installed (8"-350#/in linear + 300# tender springs) with the possibility of a bit more body roll. That will be my second interest after I feel how it rides. If it rides nicely, I can accept a bit of body roll as it's mainly a street car. If the ride's nice and I don't like the body roll, I'll look to retrofit an anti-sway bar.
These springs from Summit are $49.95 each so it won't break the bank to try them.
I looked for something else for the front end, but didn't find much that looked practical. Since I'm softening up the rear, I ordered some 9" x 450#/in front springs. I think I can fit them on based upon the 6" mains + 4" tenders on the front. I'll report on this change, too as soon as I get them installed.
My priority is to change out the rears first. Then see how I like the change. Next to decide whether the front needs modification.
The car handled so well at Road America last summer, I really hate to change anything, but not all roads are as smooth as a race track. So, considering where I drive the most miles, this change is the next logical step.
More after the springs arrive and get installed.........
Best regards,
__________________
Tom
#007 Street Rod; #2911SP Challenge Racer (Sold, 06/2010)
V.I.R.U.S.
(Very Immature Racers of the United States)
Today I got a chance to finally get the '33 out and drive it on the streets for a test of the new springs. As stated in the post above, I have switched out the stock rear springs (plus tender springs) for 12" long 175#/in - 350#/in progressive rate springs from Summit.
I also changed out the front springs to 9" 450#/in linear springs and reset the ride height, toe, caster and camber.
All went very well. The Koni shocks are still quite stiff, but now the suspension moves with the pavement instead of the whole car. It's not as cushy as a stock Miata, but is closer than it was. I can now live with it and be quite happy.
Body roll doesn't seem to have increased all that much on the streets. I'll report further on that once I get a chance to drive it on the race track. So far it doesn't seem as though it's going to need an anti-sway bar.
Addressing the front end, while the springs were off, I stroked the suspension through its full travel. Where I had the suspension set before (4 3/4" to the bottom of the frame near the firewall) the suspension was only working in the last 1/3 of its stroke. I've now raised the car so that the frame is close to 6" at the bottom near the firewall. Frame height at the rear is also 6" as before. This puts the suspension more toward the middle of its travel and has helped quite a bit on handling, steering and maybe even feedback of harshness from the road. This is most definitely an improvement in the bump-steer department.
Remember that with ride height, your tire rolling diameter makes some difference as well. My front tires' rolling diameter is 24.9" and at the rear, 26.0". So, you can adjust accordingly. With the new springs installed, there's approximately 1" of threads left on the shocks both front and rear for adjustment of ride height. That should be enough to compensate for most people's wheel/tire choices.
We've reset the alignment back to approx 3° Caster, between 0 and -0.5° Camber and reset Toe to zero. This ride height thing has bothered me from the beginning. Setting the car lower may have been okay for Auto-X, but really didn't work well on the street. Too much bump steer, too much camber change over bumps and when cornering.
While off the immediate subject, another part of the taming was adding copious amounts of insulation. We foamed in the hardtop, insulated the glass panel behind the seats, the door skins, the door panels, the inner fender wells and the cabin facing side of the gas tank. This has helped quite a bit with the drumming. I might even be able to drive it without ear plugs now when the hardtop is on!
So, if you are looking to make your '33 more street compliant give the progressive springs at the rear and the longer, slightly lower rate front springs a try. We've moved from it riding like a go kart to riding line a sports car. It's a nice improvement.
Best regards,
__________________
Tom
#007 Street Rod; #2911SP Challenge Racer (Sold, 06/2010)
V.I.R.U.S.
(Very Immature Racers of the United States)
Ultra Ride
The QA1 Shock & Spring package I have been outfitting Factory Five 33 Hot Rods with cost less than $1000 and I have been supplying them with a Spanner wrench kit and thrust washers to make adjusting a snap. They look Great and give the Hot Rod that extra Bling and performance. I could have taken the easy route and supplied the kit with 8" springs all the way around like FF but the advantages of the longer rear spring far outweigh the simple mods needed to fit the rear springs on the 8.8 rear ends.I have done all the R&D and supply them with Special bushings and instructions I make just for the Factory Five kit.
Please contact me instead of Summit as your Summit kits won't Fit!
Dan Ultra Rides 002.jpgUltra Rides 008.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Veale
.......I talked it over with Dan and will be using the Proma Star shocks, a "single adjustable" version that the adjuster acts on both the jounce and rebound valving.........
First off, I have about 6500 miles on my car and have been fiddling with the ride for quite a while. Most of those miles are "street" and "highway" miles. I've also put on about 500 miles of high speed road course laps. The car needs no changes if you're going to strictly use it for autocross or high speed track days. If you live north of the Mason/Dixon line and know about frost heave and potholes, chances are you'll desire some taming of the ride harshness, too.
Well, like Dan said earlier on this subject, changing to a better shock is the main solution to the harshness issue. I bought the PromaStar shocks from Dan R, installed them and now have about 150 miles on them over all sorts of surfaces. I don't think I have the adjusters "fine tuned" yet, but they are far kinder than the Konis. When I set the QA1 shocks to about their midpoint (18 possible settings from full soft to full firm), they move about like the Konis do at their softest setting. Setting them to "9" makes the car ride about like the Konis on their softest setting, too. So, I have 8 choices that are softer or firmer from which to choose. The adjuster nob is handy and easy to use with just one's fingertips. Just count the "clicks" and you're done.
It's still only about 50°F outside here in WI, so I'm not sure where the final settings should be for warmer weather or after these shocks are a bit more broken in. Right now I set them to the softest setting to experiement. After the driving I've done, I don't think for the street I'll go much firmer. The fronts might get a click or two more firm, but the rears seem just about right where they are. Warmer weather and/or taking the car to a road course probably will require some experimenting with the adjusters.
While this is an expensive option, it has had the most dramatic effect on ride comfort of any of the changes I've made. Handling seems very controlled even on the softest setting. I've only done one 'burnout' since installing them, but had no wheel hop either. Weight transfer to the rear under hard acceleration seems to have improved, too.
So, if your unsure what to do about the ride, there are several possible things discussed here. It becomes a matter of time, energy and expense. Of course all of it depends upon the car's use and your own keyster's sensitivity. I hope this thread has been of value to other builders here.
Best regards,
__________________
Tom
#007 Street Rod; #2911SP Challenge Racer (Sold, 06/2010)
V.I.R.U.S.
(Very Immature Racers of the United States)
Continuing "Final Report" for the change from Konis to QA1s......................
I continue to rack up miles on #007 with another tank full of gas gone with the new QA1 shocks. The ride is quite a bit improved over how it was with the Konis.
More than just the "ride" issues with the Konis, there has been another change that is very noticeable. It's in cornering. I'd worked very hard on getting "bump steer" out of the front end of the car. I decided early on that the suggested ride heights that work well for autocross don't work very well on the street. So, I reset things and have been far happier since. My attempt had been to try to find the center of the suspension's travel range when the shock and spring were off the car. Then, I set the springs to have the car's "at rest" height give me approximately that same "center of travel." Then I used a bump steer "kit" (a long bold and hardened spacers) to get the tie rods working in harmony with the suspension travel. The car dialed in to essentially zero bump steer, but still didn't "feel" right.
I've mentioned before that the car seemed oddly "darty" sometimes on the turn-in of a curve at highway speeds. I'd steer in and then the car would tend to 'self-steer' in further after it should have "set" for the corner. What I now believe was occurring was there is initial weight transfer from steering in, but the tires were taking up most of that. Then there is a secondary transfer once the Konis started to hydraulically compress/shorten on the outside and release/extend on the inside. It's a "slow motion" effect that feels as though the steering rack gets progressively "faster" as you steer into a corner. I'd never "felt" anything quite like it and was blaming bump steer. I didn't know where to "turn" to solve this problem (so to speak).
Because the Konis are so stiff and slow to react to direction change, it gives this odd feedback on turn-in. This isn't "bump steer" at all, think of it as being more like slowly releasing your floor jack! After changing out the Konis to the QA1s at first it seemed as though this oddity had gone away, but I wasn't sure. I thought maybe it was just that I'd not driven the car much since last Fall. Now that I've driven on the QA1's a fair distance, I'm convinced that the hydraulic "jacking" and slow response time is the source of the odd sensation. It truly is "gone" and the car takes a "set" heading into the apex of a turn far better than it did before.
This seems to be an unanticipated 2nd (and major) benefit to using the QA1 shocks. I changed to them for "ride", but the improvement in steering makes the car far less spooky than it was on the brick solid Konis. I'm copying Dan Ruth on this note as well, so he is aware of the change/improvement in steering response. For Interstate speeds, I'll probably set the QA1s a bit firmer than I currently have them, but not much. Also, for track days they may need a bit firmer setting, too. But for now, I'm delighted with the improved comfort and also the far less peculiar turn-in characteristic that seemed impossible to "adjust" away. It was the Konis all the time.
Overall, it's my impression that the Koni fluid and valving are designed for a far heavier car and will never work right on a 2250# vehicle driven on the Streets.
I could have taken the simple path and provided the kit with 8" rises all the way around like FF but the key benefits of the more time back springtime far over-shadow the simple mods required to fit the back rises on the 8.8 back finishes. I have done all the R&D and provide them with Unique bushings and guidelines I create just for the Manufacturer Five kit.
It occurred to me this AM that I'd never written a report after attending the Northwoods Shelby Club event at Road America last August. I guess I just got too busy enjoying the car with its improved ride on the QA1's that I never posted about the car's behavior on the track. First, the car was a great track car right from Day One even with the Koni's. The problem had been when driving the car on the street (most of the miles so far). The QA1's were chosen because of their greater range of adjustability over the Koni's and they made a massive improvement in the overall ride. But, the question remained as to how the new shocks would work on the car during a "track day."
My first session out I left the shocks at their "street" setting of just one click up from full soft. (the QA1's have 18 positions from full soft to full firm, with #9 being about the same as the Koni's on their "full soft" position) The car was fine on the slower sections of the track but got a bit "floaty" when over 100 MPH. Over the next session or two I tried a variety of settings and settled on #4 from full soft as being quite acceptable at speed with great handling. The setting is still too firm for daily street usage, but was great on Road America's 4 miles and 14 turns. Here's a series of photos taken between the exit of Turn 12 (Canada Corner) and the exit of Turn 13 (Mitchel Bend). In this section of the track #007 was in the top end of 3rd Gear, and running between 70MPH and 90MPH in these photos. The car remained very well settled, pointed in well at Turn-In, took a Set and stayed settled through the Apexes and carried nicely through the Exits of the turns with no surprises. This is one of the more "technical" sections of Road America with transitions from right to left, high speed and blind exits.
Transition from Right to Left in this first section shifts weight heavily from side to side while running at near full throttle.
Turn-in for Mitchel Bend requires a light lift of the throttle to set the front of the car.
The apex of Mitchel Bend is done with a steady throttle and eyes way ahead watching for the exit.
One can stay in the top of 3rd gear and feather off the throttle to keep from over-reving before T14,
or do a quick upshift to 4th and then back to 3rd before turn-in for 14.
The progressive springs work well on the track with body roll being reasonable for a street car. Road America's excellent surface probably would allow me to go to even higher settings on the QA1s but I quit playing with the adjuster after the car was settled in the 100+ mph range. On a bumpier track I'm sure a setting could be found that kept the car controlled and the tires planted as well. I'll see if there are some other photo series that show tighter corners and will post later. (See http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...ll=1#post92524 for more photos)
Thanks again to Dan Ruth for helping out on the shock selection.
Great thread Tom! I just started down the path with QA1 DD's on the rear and variable rate springs. Mine isn't from the hard tail Harley aspect as much as the go cart hop you mention at the beginning. I'm a little heavier in the front so I have left that alone for now. Very good info.
I've found that the ride tech website's spring rate calculator is reasonably accurate. It worked for me when I got springs provided with my body/frame that were much too stiff, particularly in the front. Someone noted the the front spring rate calculator wouldn't work with the '33 but it will. Although springs are in a different location, there is still a relevant actuation ratio - all you have to do is measure it correctly.
I have decided to change the shocks, Summit has their brand double adjustable rears that I believe will work part number SUM-Q773501( which I believe is the same as the QA1 ) 17 " extended length, along with QA1 DS403 for the fronts these are single adjustable and 15 " length. I was going to use the trust washers and I have the 250 # springs from Breeze for the rears and the 350# springs for the fronts. The car has an LS3 and TKO500 with a three link with new control arms with the rod ends, does this seem like a decent setup ? Can anyone verify that these are the correct shocks to use ? I can't seem to find any posts that list replacement part numbers.
Any help would be appreciated.
Jim
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