Factory Five's Most Popular Car!?!?!?

[saiven]

Something very interesting...
There are more posts under the 818 than any other car and this car hasn't released yet...

I think this is very important because as I write this there are more active people viewing the 818 forum than any other.
This car has the potential to place Factory Five in a new class and really set the highest of standards for "KIT CAR" companies.

If they pull this off well, we are looking at the beginning of a new era of Kit Cars.

I really hope they really shock the world with this car.

I believe there is so much potential here!

[shinn497]

Well it has the lowest price and greatest performance potential...I think that is a reason.

[Benji]

Possibly also because there isn't an '818' section on the 'other' forum and that still has a *MASSIVE* community, so if you were to compare it to that I wonder how well it would still fair.

[shinn497]

There is an 818 section on the other forum...and no one posts. Also I am willing to bet that the 818's fanbase is more likely to go online than others.

Anyway, there is no way of knowing how popular it will be until it sells. There could be hidden costs and changes to the market that make the 818 more expensive to build. Look what happened to the gtm.

[Benji]

I stand corrected! (Though maybe that makes my point as well?!)

[PhyrraM]

I think Dave has intended for the 818 to be the volume mover from Day 1. He stated from the very beginning things like 'FFRs biggest challange', 'new process', 'put things in place', etc. Dave wasn't just talking about designing a car and a kit, they have that down. He was talking about internal (and vendor) processes to handle the type of volume he expects the 818 to create.

However, I don't think he anticipated just how fast the online 'support(?)' grew for the car.


Side note, I expect 818s to have a hidden transmission problem (like the GTM). I expect to not see gear problems like in full body WRXs, but I think ring and pinion problems or a problem with the long shaft leading to the ring and pinion. So, in a few years we might see a Mendeola solution - like the GTM. (The GTMs problem was transmission availability and cost of the Porsche unit, created by the demand for GTMs)

[Mechie3]

I think part of the explosion of interest is the targeted customer base. NASIOC is the fifth largest car forum. Go to a local autocross and you're likely to see more Subarus than any other make. Back when I lived in CNY, Subarus often made up 1/3 of the total entrants. Lots of tinkerers, racers, etc. The 818 certainly caters directly to them.

With the launch of the BRZ you have people that are viewing the 818 as what they hoped the BRZ would be: high power, RWD. The other cars FFR makes don't really appeal to me except maybe the GTM. That costs too much for me and is decidely American in it's appearance. Not a bad thing, but I prefer a japanese or Euro look over most American designs.

[riptide motorsport]

The 818 won't come close to the popularity of the C0bra............not by a long shot.

[TY2185]

The 818 won't come close to the popularity of the C0bra............not by a long shot.

I bet Dave hopes to prove you wrong on that statement. : )

[PhyrraM]

Many, many, many folks that want a venomous hooded snake already have one. Many have already built 2 or 3. Nobody that wants an 818 has one.

Plus, factor in the ages (and corresponding interests) and financial migration of the audiences (and future audiences), the multiple purposes of the 818, the return to the 'single donor' concept, and (very important) the no bodywork promise and I really can't see the Roadster not having some very stiff competition.


Disclaimer...If the no paint 818 works out well, I do see FFR migrating it to the other platforms. Also, while the 'single donor' Roadster is still possible it doesn't seem to be a highly utilized option by browsing the forums here.


Question: For those who have been around a long time: Did the GTM attract as much 'non FFR community' interest and new folks as the 818 currently is? Less? More?

[metalmaker12]

I agree with PhyrraM 100% but I disagree with ripetide motorsports 100%, not that I don't love the cobra, cause I do, but the new age of performance gear heads love the Subaru. It is the biggest community world wide, and when they get back to rally in 2014, with the all new STI it is going to be crazy. This car will be the best seller of FFR in two-three years tops. It just has the eye of the young, kind of like a pop group. It is way more affordable across the board, and will beat out a roadster in most ways, except the look, I mean the roadster is a beauty queen. I think the 818 will be a close second in looks when it is all done and dressed up though.

[skullandbones]

The kit car industry is becoming more competitive so I can see why FFR wants to broaden their market to a "world car". Unlike the other models offered, I think the 818 will sell better overall in places like Japan, Europe. There may be a point where a significant number will come from outside the US. Also, there will be a lot of crossover in the US from the Subie community. It may take a while but I do think it will become the volume selling kit for FFR. It will not have the problems of the GTM, the availability of the all Subie components will totally bypass the transaxle issue. Only the most hardcore enthusiasts like ralley guys will have to inventory multiple units. The other limiting factor is the choice of bodies. If the forum polls are any indication, a lot of potential buyers will wait for a Targa or real coupe before pulling the trigger. That's not lack of comitment to the project just knowing what they want. That could be a good thing. It would allow for a slower but more steedy growth which will be more manageable for FFR to ramp up to match the volume. Another issue that will eventually be overcome is that the 818 has no history to support it's sales. The image of the roadster hooks potential customers before even evaluating the quality put into the kit by FFR. That will come with a building of the 818's reputation. WEK.

[VD2021]

True. The majority of post on this forum have been in the 818 section and if this is the metric used, the answer would be yes.

I personally like to call this the "818 forum". However, as of this date, the 818 is not an available "car" or kit yet....

This may be a more relevant question once the kits are available and builders have them on the road.

But, this is another 818 thread that will add to the number of post......

[roglesby]

Don't underestimate the effect of an ageing demographic.

I guarantee that the number of 18 year-olds out there salivating for a Cobra is a tiny fraction of what it was 20 or 30 years ago. Given the choice of building a high dollar snake that isn't fuel friendly and doesn't hold the emotional attachment that it might for us 40-70 year-olds vs a comparatively fuel friendly Subie at less money and effectively comparable performance, what do you think the 20-40 set will choose?

FFR knows exactly what they are doing. If they meet the price and performance goals, eventually get out a coupe and/or targa, this is a slam dunk. Assuming they don't pooch it, 10 years from now the 818 rules the roost...at least that's what my crystal ball says.

[saiven]

I really feel like if they make this car where it could be your daily driver this will cause a big shift. Because I feel a lot of the people who are looking for it to be so CHEAP don't have a lot of money for a toy they can only drive once in while. But would be willing to splurge on something that is semi practical to speak.

[Xusia]

I really feel like if they make this car where it could be your daily driver this will cause a big shift. Because I feel a lot of the people who are looking for it to be so CHEAP don't have a lot of money for a toy they can only drive once in while. But would be willing to splurge on something that is semi practical to speak.

+1

[Jacob McCrea]

No doubt, keeping the 818's various iterations at a price point that large numbers of twenty-somethings and thirty-somethings can afford will be critical to high-volume sales. FFR seems to have done a great job at this in recent years, keeping the kit prices consistent despite big increases in the cost of steel, diesel fuel (read: shipping), other energy costs, health care costs, and so on. For the demographic group(s) above, it's all the more critical in my view given the student loan debt, whether from college, trade school, or whatever, vexing many in that age bracket (myself included). Building any FFR is a really cool experience and I'm hopeful that the 818s will make it a viable choice for younger builders.

[NonProfit]

I really feel like if they make this car where it could be your daily driver this will cause a big shift.

So this begs the question, what would you want in a DD that might not be included in a kit. HVAC, windows, and top are most obvious. Interior fit and finish would be important for some. What else?

[Evan78]

So this begs the question, what would you want in a DD that might not be included in a kit. HVAC, windows, and top are most obvious. Interior fit and finish would be important for some. What else?

Seems like next items would be cargo capacity, power windows, power mirrors, power doorlocks, keyless entry, cruise control, cup holders, interior storage, stereo.

[saiven]

So this begs the question, what would you want in a DD that might not be included in a kit. HVAC, windows, and top are most obvious. Interior fit and finish would be important for some. What else?

I started new Thread with a Poll that has questions about this very thing.

The only thing that is Mandatory for me is some kind of top and windows.

Check out the other Thread
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...stion-and-Poll

I would love to hear everyone's thoughts and opinions and feel like we could all learn from everyone.

[D2W]

So the car has a lower price and high performance, both pluses. I however I see three things holding back this car from outselling the C0bra, the daily drivability, the looks, and the resale value. Its hard and expensive to get a kit car to the level of fit and finish of a production car. So if its going to be your DD you're going to have to put up with things like leaky top/side windows, noise, comfort ect. that you wouldn't have to in a miata. Sure some guys will do it but most won't. So that makes it a toy, some guys won't care what it looks like they are only after the performance. Most others will care, so it depends on how good a job FFR does with the current and future body styles. The current design is ok, but its not a car I would hang a poster of on my wall. So lets say you are okay with the limited comfort of the car, and the looks are good to you. Since its a toy you're going to get tired of it and want to move on top something new. I don't know about you but I need to get some of my investment back when I sell a toy so I can move onto the next one. I don't see this car retaining its value. To sell it you're going to have to find someone who wants one already built and is okay with buying a car that someone they don't know building it. How do I know you had any idea what you were doing when you assembled it without taking it apart and redoing it. I'm not going to do that unless I can buy it at a much reduced rate over a new kit.

The C0bra from FFR sells about 500 a year, it has a great looking design that many people lust over, and a pretty good resale value. (You can never get back what you put into it however). I think it will be a long time before the 818 outsells the roadster year after year.

[RMB]

Well, the difference is, everyone who posts on the roadster, coupe, and 33 forums, has actually built, is building, or will be building one of those. I'm curious to see how many who post in the 818 forum will actually build one. Hopefully, all of them, but we will see once its released.

I know I'm curious about the 818, but the next car I build will either be a coupe or another roadster.

Rob

[PhyrraM]

That's why I'm specifically curious about what was the GTM buzz - pre release.

[Evan78]

The value will be determined by normal supply and demand along with the cost to duplicate it. I don't think it will lose value the same way a production vehicle does. Lots of people love the idea of building their own car, but I bet there's a lot more people that just want to write a check and go drive it. I agree with your points about being wary of build quality, but it probably won't be too hard to inspect. It's not like the frame is being built from scratch. Since the body is not an existing classic, I think the biggest threat to resale value is if the styling does not age well.

[Xusia]

I think it's important to keep in mind it will be pretty easy to inspect - just remove the body. It's not as easy as, say, opening the hood, but it's not exactly a 4 hour job either.

[tirod]

Huge? No. Neither is the whole kit industry. It's practically a back burner to hot rodding factory cars, and for a very particular reason.

You can buy a used car and start your project for thousands less than a kit. Street legal, running cars are everywhere, under a thousand dollars, entirely affordable.

While I might not be attracted to this particular kit, I'm aware that there is a lot of interest - but that interest also has to be backed up with money, and kits are much more expensive than the running car they are based on. Those cars come with a roof and a heater - seats for at least four - and they run when the papers are signed. Reality tells me a running car will gather up a lot of the same people who enjoy dreaming about the kit.

Ask all the Roadster owners - they didn't buy a kit then, they made life choices that put car seats in the back and a mortgage on their checking account. So did I - bought a '66 Mustang and worked it over for 18 years, from six cylinder three speed to 302 with top loader, 9" inch, discs, and full on Shelby suspension. As it broke, I fixed it better, and when life presented choices with consequences, I let it go. My kids were more important.

Much of the youthful interest shown for this kit is one thing, getting cash from a 23 year old with a baby on the way, not so much. I'm sure F5 will do well with it - and a lot of kits will move - but not everyone who posts up here will buy.

Their dreams may take a lot longer to happen, just like the roadster owners, many of who are returning to their roots decades after their interest was kindled. It's likely going to be the kit released 30 years from now that they buy, and there's no telling what it will be based on. It may not be dinosaur cast iron V8 with a tube frame, but it will be something that taps into that dream they once had.

Whatever, it won't be offered based on speculation, but some hard heading thinking and number crunching, just like now. I suspect Dave and the guys are going to do ok with the 818. It's the fan base that may have problems, tho, when all the over the top expectations meet reality and their feelings get hurt when it's not an overwhelming success.

Don't plan on F5's "New Era" of car building becoming a widespread phenomenon of kit builders in every neighborhood. Won't happen. It's still going to be the rare hot rodder who drops a tube frame on jackstands in the garage. Most of the rest will be driving their dream cars, and wondering how many more car seats they can squeeze in before it has to go. How do I know? I owned one of nearly 500,000 Mustangs made that year alone, one of 18 million Jeep Cherokees, too. I'd like to own one of the less than 1,000 Daytona coupes ever built.

Them's the odds - it's millions to one. But, it can be done.

[RM1SepEx]

I'm not sure that the title of this thread is correct, just because of the process that Dave chose for this car there are the most posts relative to the car. Many of these posts are by the same people, interactively discussing design, donors, etc... It would be interesting to see how many people have posted in each forum area, that might better gauge interest in a particular model.

Their current cars both in sales and posts would show the Cobra roadster as most popluar and the most posts. I think everyone knows this by default. I also think that the interest level for the 818 is very high, a testement to F5's choice of the Subaru wbased "world car" as a next kit.

[BrandonDrums]

Discussions here have come full circle! In the early days of the 818 forum, there was a similar slew of polls about what people wanted out of the 818 and weather it should be a exo car, coupe, roadster etc.

I think we have nothing to worry about. I anticipate with the three designs Dave mentioned the car will have in the first production run we'll see a stripped out track car, a streetable roadster and a coupe/targa/hard-topped variant for daily driving.

At one point he was hinting at a track car, roadster and a high mpg variant but there were more than a few poo poos on the MPG variant. People wanted daily driving practicality out of a performance model than just a fuel sipper. I'm betting the chassis for the initial production will be subaru only and just offer varying styles and degrees of creature comforts...

my prediction at least.

[shinn497]

Brandon, dave has mentioned several times that he has relations with vw and ford with regards to implementing thier tdi and ecotec engines respectively. He mentioned that this model would be a coupe. The bodies, of course, are interchangable, so I high think the coupe could pull double duty as a low COD high-mpg and a more comfortable DD. I'm sure the high-mpg chasis will come eventually since there are business incentives for it.

[07FIREBLADE]

Back to the main idea of this thread. One thing that I have noticed every time that I log onto this forum is that the 818 section has the same if not more people viewing the forums as the GTM, which is FFR flagship. Also it has the sum of all there other forum viewers combined. This is just an observation. And many of the viewers are the same people if not all of the same people.

At the moment known of us have a kit in front of us so we are amusing ourselves by interacting on the forum. Most of the other viewers on the other forums have a kit in front of them or are getting ready to buy one so they are more committed and the lack of posting on other forums should not be a gauge of popularity or commitment to a single car.

[vozproto]

I think part of the explosion of interest is the targeted customer base. NASIOC is the fifth largest car forum. Go to a local autocross and you're likely to see more Subarus than any other make. Back when I lived in CNY, Subarus often made up 1/3 of the total entrants. Lots of tinkerers, racers, etc. The 818 certainly caters directly to them.

With the launch of the BRZ you have people that are viewing the 818 as what they hoped the BRZ would be: high power, RWD. The other cars FFR makes don't really appeal to me except maybe the GTM. That costs too much for me and is decidely American in it's appearance. Not a bad thing, but I prefer a japanese or Euro look over most American designs.

^ THIS.
Plus the target demographic is more-so a younger crowd and more likely to have an itchy "POST" trigger finger...

Not to mention the publicity that this has gotten through the different media outlets.

[10 10 Flyin]

all the other guys are too busy building and don't have time to post

[Twinspool]

Because it's the future!

The roadster broke new ground for a kit and established FFR's street cred as a solid business with the engineering and manufacturing prowess to pull it off.
The GTM proved they could go big performance wise. (And price wise )
The '32 proved 'rods could handle.
The 818 will prove that quality, high performing kit cars are accessible to the under 65 crowd. That and hopefully generate enough capital for FFR to flex their creative muscle a little more.