Symth Performance G3R vs. FFR WRX

[Doc_FFR]

Smyth Performance G3R vs. FFR WRX

Someone had to start the comparison.

I was an avid follower of the Smyth project since its inception. I love mid engined cars and Mark’s use of a donor car and “green” diesel seemed very attractive. Several things killed my enthusiasm, however:

1) The initial body sketches looked cool, but the final product doesn’t look nearly as good (IMHO)
2) The Volkswagen Jetta isn’t a very reliable car to start with
3) Mark said his fans shouldn’t expect the final product to handle like an FFR

Now for the FFR WRX

If the kit costs $10,000 and the final product is supposed to be only $15,000 then you’ll have to find a donor for less than $5,000 (See what I did there? )
A quick search of auto trader shows ONE (wrecked) WRX in the entire USA that goes for less than five grand.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/search...s=25#288249284
So how is that going to work?

I'm guessing you may end up using some of the interior bits of the WRX in the completion of the FFR WRX. Dash, steering wheel, seats, etc. I've very interested in this project but I'm trying to keep my expectations low as I was burned once before...

So what's everyone thinking about the two mid engined, RWD, removable top, donor car Smith choices?

[keys2heaven]

Yeah, I see the fancy math there Doc. You and I saw the same ad. Looks like slim pickens for a tuner donor in that price range.

[RedJoker]

This should be a lively thread. As Beta #3 of the G3F, I can say agree with #1, i'm not sure about #2 and I understand #3. Now, I have a FFR roadster but I want to build something that I can drive everyday. This is where the two cars will diverge. This is why people have both a sports car and sedan to drive to work.

Also, the G3F is way ahead in the game. Timing is always the great unknown in product launches. Some great products didn't make it because they were simply late too the game and others fail because they were simply too early. I won't even venture a guess here.

I will reiterate, though, that I view these cars are different enough to compliment each other. I am extremely interested to have a car that handles like my roadster but has something over my head and is relatively cheap. I would love to have both in my garage.

[UpstateCobraGuy]

Here are two in the Albany, NY area

http://albany.craigslist.org/cto/2189925806.html

http://albany.craigslist.org/cto/2201570769.html

Pat

[csx2000_4000]

I douted the 15K without even looking for a donor. Anybody thats built a FFR knows how things add up that you change, don't like or just don't have.

[Olli]

I still want to know how FFR plans on making the WRX drivetrain mid-engine.

Olli

[Hoosier]

Neither will be AWD

[Doc_FFR]

Also, the G3F is way ahead in the game. Timing is always the great unknown in product launches. Some great products didn't make it because they were simply late too the game and others fail because they were simply too early. I won't even venture a guess here.

I'm thinking more HD DVD vs. Blue-Ray with one eventually getting phased out completely. I just hope Mark hasn't put too much money into the thing.

[RedJoker]

I'm thinking more HD DVD vs. Blue-Ray with one eventually getting phased out completely. I just hope Mark hasn't put too much money into the thing.

I dunno... I can see two different target audiences for these. I haven't heard yet, will the FFR be a daily driver?

As a track car, absolutely I would go with Factory Five but I already have one of those, I need a daily driver.

No doubt it will be interesting.

[D2W]

I watched Mark's progress from day one and can say it was an incredible ride but I have become dissappointed along the way. Some of that was the design, and some of that was me wanting more of a performance oriented car. I gotta say now I understand why Dave wasn't thrilled about Mark's project, (I actually thought this was the reason all along), and I understand why Mark is working toward a greener, high mileage daily driver. I believe there is room for both cars as this section of the market is wide open and these two cars appear to be at opposite ends. I love the price point, so pick an awesome looking body with a removeable top Dave and I'll be in line.
DP

[mrmustang]

I still want to know how FFR plans on making the WRX drivetrain mid-engine.

Olli

X2 here Olli, X2.........18 FFR's, maybe, just maybe #19 will be the new WRX based kit,but only time will tell.

Bill S.

[Dave Smith]

I guess this was inevitable. You guys may notice that I have not written anything about what my brother is doing. I think for now I will continue that. I will only say that the project that he is working on is light years away from anything we would do. I would not make a car that way.

Ollie: RWD
Donor: I think we paid $5,500 bucks for our WRX, clean, low mileage. Keep in mind the Subaru parts bin is not limited to the WRX, but includes the other models down the line.
Cost: Paint is huge and trying to make paint-free gel-coated panels is so key but it's also tolerances that hand-made parts cannot (save for a very few guys out there) really be made to fit. With our corp partners at solidworks we can do this (i think).
Performance vs. daily driver. FFR's are as close to daily drivers as kit cars have ever gotten. I could give you over 1,000 names of people who have more than 25,000 miles on their FFR's. I don't buy the argument that anyone really wants to build a daily driver kit car. a Special car is one you want to use all the time, but, daily driver? Hmmm.
More later on this and I really would prefer to not compare anything FFR does with that effort for now.

Dave Smith
FFR001

[canuck1]

For what it's worth (not much, trust me), I think Mark's G3F may fill a niche, but I'm not sure if it's large enought to support enough sales to make it a profitable venture.

I have thought it might be a cool build to do with my now 14 year old son (he's been a great help on the roadster). If the safety factor is high enough, I thought it might make a nice first car for him. fun to build, work on and affordable to drive.

Unfortunately this is an ultra-competitive market segment, so making it work will be a challenge only someone with Mark's brain could achieve!

I need to learn more about the WRX car before a fair comparison can be made.

Sean

[D2W]

Dave to say I'm excited about your project is a huge understatement. Light, economical, fun, and fast. Put a great looking body on it with a top that is ready to go and you will have a winner. Can't wait to see your progress.
DP

[Someday I Suppose]

Last week I caught the episoide of Horse Power where they put the Coyote into the 33. One of the interesting things for me was the inverview with Dave where he talked about his resistance to doing a 33 because Factory Five was always about cars that handled great, and Jim convinced him he could be a 33 that handled like a sports car. I guess that resonates with me in this next car. I think it is less about a WRX donor then it is about building a killer 4cyl turbo mid engine sports car, and the Sube power plant is probably the best choice to fit the bill.

I'm very much looking forward to seeing how it all comes together, the idea of paint free fel coat panels alone has my interest.


-Scott

[FFRWRX]

I too was very much interested in the Smyth car and have followed it since day 1 (haven't posted anything about it though). Also, I was pretty excited about it until I saw the latest pictures, then I thought...well...it looks good, but it just looks like a fairly ordinary car. Don't know what I expected, but I suppose I expected something a little more exotic. If I'm going to build a car I don't want it being "ordinary" looking. Oh, I did build one of the first FFR cars way back in '96 (and way up in Canada!).

As for the Smyth car having the jump on FFR, that's true, but you have one person against a fully up and running company with a very good track record and a very comprehensive set of resources. I do hope Mark makes a go of it with all the time and money he has in it, but I think he is in for a bit of a struggle now. I have 2 project cars on the go now, so the timing should be good to have those done and be ready for a new project just as the new FFR car is ready for me!

Rick

[steno]

To be honest, I'd build a car that was much more like the original smyth concept cars than what it ended up to be.

[redsharK]

The turbo talons, eclipses and lasers that are commonly referred to as DSM's are much more plentiful and cost effective then the wonderful WRX.
Plenty of decent running DSM's can be found for well under $5000. huge following and 400hp can be reliably made from the stock long block with a 16g turbo.

red

[Doc_FFR]

I guess this was inevitable. You guys may notice that I have not written anything about what my brother is doing. I think for now I will continue that. I will only say that the project that he is working on is light years away from anything we would do. I would not make a car that way.

I started this thread, although I think it would have been started anyhow. I do feel like I should apologize Mark if this has caused any unpleasantness. For what it's worth, I know you're going to make a great product and I'm looking for to seeing more about it soon.

[Rich Drake]

The point that seems to have been missed in the Smyth/FFR debate (if you want to call it that) is MARKETING. Give two identical products to two different people to market and you will see entirely different results. We are car guys and we'll argue all day about the merits of one design versus the other - and no one would be wrong. The reason I (and what, 5000 other people?) bought a Factory Five was DAVE SMITH. Unless Mark brings someone in who can generate excitement like Dave can, I don't see the Smyth car getting much beyond the current following. This is not meant to disparage Mark - who is very talented - but to make a point about the business side of these cars.

[Rob J]

Subaru WRX underpinning excite me a tad bit more than Jetta TDI underpinnings. Just saying...

It's kind of like would you rather go to Sizzler, or Ruth Chris.

[Evan78]

You can purchase early WRX's in good running condition with a clean body for $6-$7k. Sell what you don't need and be close to $5k. Or you could probably purchase all the parts and spend less than $5k. I'd go for a 2.5L anyway that became available 2004-2006 depending on the model (STi, WRX, Legacy, etc).

[GAThunder019]

This link shows the Design 'Mule' for the G3F:
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3850096/2011-smyth-g3f

Interesting to see it taking shape... (o;

[Roadster]

Hey olli. Mid engine and a "donor" concept! Extra parts in the kit? LOL

[Benji]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet but, whilst it may 'only' be rear wheel drive, if it does actually manage to meet the target weight and target price, this is going to be a killer blow to the Murtaya....

Under cutting the weight by some 200Kg and a THIRD of the price (give the current exchange rate), if it looks anything like the sketched picture or the K1-Attack the only point 'negative' against the Murtaya will be that it's 'only' rear wheel drive.....

[Evan78]

I don't see it being 1/3 the price of the Murtaya. Their site is pretty sparse on details, but I see they're cheapest kit is 13,000 gbp, which is $21k. So the kit would be double the price, or if you assume the cost of the donor parts to be equivalent, the percentage difference narrows. If the donor is $5k, the FF would be $15k and Murtaya $26k. Big difference, but not 3X as far as I see. I would think shipping and import costs would be some factor too since FF is in the US and Murtaya is in UK.

[Flyinglow]

I still want to know how FFR plans on making the WRX drivetrain mid-engine.

Olli

Nothing too special about doing this. Many VW vans, bugs and a few ghia's have been transplanting with scooby engines, using mainly ej20. Curious more on which powerplant as in can a 2.5 be used and how big of a turbo as far as room. Is top intercooler still going to be needed or does chasis design allow for something different? I can see a lot of fun at a low cost if a 2.5 with just a little bigger turbo and a cobb tune is slapped in.

[Evan78]

I still want to know how FFR plans on making the WRX drivetrain mid-engine.

Olli

A friend of mine that knows Subarus a whole lot better than I do said you just pull the center diff from the trans and block the hole for the tailshaft. You'd then just be driving the front wheels.

Now take that configuration (engine in front of trans) and put it behind the passenger compartment instead of in front and you've got a mid-rear RWD setup.

[labmonkee]

Owning a MKV gti, I can see the appeal of using VW hardware, but the two cars discussed are completely different ideologically, approached in completely different styles. As such I don't think a comparison can be made (despite the similarities on the surface).
I also loved the idea of owning a WRX, but went with a GTI for interior build quality. A FFR with WRX running gear is an interesting addition to the FFR stable. Big turbo, lightweight, well balanced - an affordable lotus with superior performance!

I agree with Mark - build a great car, that you never want to get out of - and there's your daily driver.

P.s. Mark when are you going to make a RHD option box on the roadster order form for us overseas fans

[Benji]

I don't see it being 1/3 the price of the Murtaya. Their site is pretty sparse on details, but I see they're cheapest kit is 13,000 gbp, which is $21k. So the kit would be double the price, or if you assume the cost of the donor parts to be equivalent, the percentage difference narrows. If the donor is $5k, the FF would be $15k and Murtaya $26k. Big difference, but not 3X as far as I see. I would think shipping and import costs would be some factor too since FF is in the US and Murtaya is in UK.

Sure, 13k PLUS VAT which currently sits at 20%, so now you are at £15.6k or $23.1k and you haven't even started looking at the doner yet and good luck finding a DECENT doner for $5k, £5k maybe will get you a decent 'classic' shape Impreza so now you are already knocking on the door of $30k, then you've got to think about paint and various other paraphernalia and if you what that 2004-2006 WRX or STI, you can easily kiss good bye to being below $45k (complete).

Like I said, this very much depends on how realistic FFR's goals are with 1800lbs and $15,000 complete....

[Evan78]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I was assuming you were referring to the FF car being a threat to Murtaya's overseas sales since they don't even have a US distributer, do they? I've only heard of a couple in the U.S. Where do most of the Murtaya buyers live? I was assuming in the UK or Europe. I don't know anything about what people in other countries have to pay for importing U.S. goods.

I was also assuming that the donor parts would be roughly equivalent. Aside from a driveshaft, diff, and a couple half-shafts, wouldn't the Murtaya require about the same parts?

[Benji]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I was assuming you were referring to the FF car being a threat to Murtaya's overseas sales since they don't even have a US distributer, do they? I've only heard of a couple in the U.S. Where do most of the Murtaya buyers live? I was assuming in the UK or Europe. I don't know anything about what people in other countries have to pay for importing U.S. goods.

I was also assuming that the donor parts would be roughly equivalent. Aside from a driveshaft, diff, and a couple half-shafts, wouldn't the Murtaya require about the same parts?

It's not an arguement at all just discussions

I'm sorry, I haven't exactly clarified exactly what I was getting at, which was just an interesting comparison, you are completely right that what I am saying is completely null and void if you were to consider the FFR car as a competitor to the Murtaya in the UK (where most of its customer base is I would imagine) or the Murtaya as a competitor to the FFR car in the US.

Import tax/etc going in either direction just gets silly although there is/was an 'official' US importer of the Murtaya (http://www.murtayausa.com/) but as you can see this site is currently 'down', maybe permanently?

As for the required parts from the donor I think you are spot on.

[Evan78]

The Murtaya looks great on paper, except for the price and lack of U.S. support. I've been following Michael Palotas' blog (http://murtaya.com/Diary.shtml) for a couple years and it's the best source of U.S. related info I've seen. I was hoping this FFR was going to be 4wd, but some cheaper, smaller, lighter version of the GTM would be pretty awesome. I was thinking some LS powered Locost might be my next car, but this FFR car might take the place of that dream.

[PhyrraM]

First, I admit I've never driven the Murtaya.

However, because it maintains the Symetrical AWD, that means that the motor is still hung out in front of the front wheel centerline. Subaru has done an excellent job of avoiding understeer because of this, but only on it's most sporty models. And even then, under power they still lean towards understeer. I would be concerned about how to fight the natural tendency towards understeer when you lose about 1000 pounds, mostly from the rear end, not over the motor.

I think by keeping the new FFR car mid-engined and RWD, you win the understeer battle by not having to fighting it.

[RedJoker]

I'm interested to see more about this car. I had a stock '04 STI and the amount of understeer absolutely drove me nuts. It had more understeer than any of the other cars I've autocrossed. In conversations with other STI hotshoes, I got some tips on what to do to reduce it but they admitted that, out of the box, it was incredibly annoying. With FFR's adjustments, that will hopefully be a thing of the past.

[Benji]

The Murtaya looks great on paper, except for the price and lack of U.S. support. I've been following Michael Palotas' blog (http://murtaya.com/Diary.shtml) for a couple years and it's the best source of U.S. related info I've seen. I was hoping this FFR was going to be 4wd, but some cheaper, smaller, lighter version of the GTM would be pretty awesome. I was thinking some LS powered Locost might be my next car, but this FFR car might take the place of that dream.

He's the first person I thought of when I saw the announcement, had the FFR car been AWD I think he would be sick to the bone, that being said I still feel really sorry for him for the way he has been treated.

If FFR can keep to the $9900 kit price and provide even just a GOOD looking car with good handling I think they eat away huge chunks of the budget kit car market. If they can provide a GREAT looking car with GREAT handling at that price then....

I wonder who will be the first to find room to slip an LS lump in there, I don't know how long the Impreza block is but with 2 less cylinders length wise it's off to a good start...

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

If FFR pulls this off, and comes up with an attractive shape (you can put me down for another vote for something in K-1 Attack looks department) I see no way they can lose on this.



You can see more Attack photos on my website in my sig if you are not familiar with this car.

With a good-looking hard-top that real people can fit in, I think it's exactly what the kit car world has been waiting for. Aggressive styling, performance to match the look, inexpensive kit, inexpensive donor, inexpensive to complete (no $10k paint job needed) tons of performance upgrades already available, hopefully simple to assemble!.......IMO, this could be what the Attack should have been in the first place. I'm very excited about this. I wish this was available yesterday, but at the same time, I hope FFR takes their time on this one to get it right. If they do, I can see this being something that turns the whole kit car industry on it's ear, and could easily out-sell the roadsters.

If I can realistically build something that looks like the Attack, has performance/handling of something like an Elise or Exige, and do it for under $20k parts/materials cost, (just a fraction more than the cost of just the LS7 engine for a GTM build )........ I can see building a ton of turn-keys for a ton of happy customers!

Note to FFR: Please do not make this car look "happy". Does the Attack look happy? (ok....maybe happy to eat you for dinner?) The pencil sketch reminds me a bit of the Mazda Furai.....no complaints!

[Evan78]

First, I admit I've never driven the Murtaya.

However, because it maintains the Symetrical AWD, that means that the motor is still hung out in front of the front wheel centerline. Subaru has done an excellent job of avoiding understeer because of this, but only on it's most sporty models. And even then, under power they still lean towards understeer. I would be concerned about how to fight the natural tendency towards understeer when you lose about 1000 pounds, mostly from the rear end, not over the motor.

I think by keeping the new FFR car mid-engined and RWD, you win the understeer battle by not having to fighting it.

I've never driven a Murtaya either, but I've owned a few turbo Subarus and have some track and auto-x experience and I can tell you that they can be made to be pretty neutral cars. Just like virtually every other car, they have a tendency to understeer when stock, you just make the typical suspension adjustments to dial out the understeer. I'm sure you're correct that it's probably a lot easier to eliminate understeer in the setup FFR is using. I would think the new challenge would be to keep the rear end stable. What I love about a 4wd car is how easy it is to correct mistakes and make the car do what you want.

[Benji]

Yep, exactly what Shane said.

At this price I can see there being plenty of 'his and hers', plenty of daily drivers and plenty of people having 'road' and 'race' versions!

Please oh please can we see a K1 Attack lookalike!

[Evan78]

I wonder who will be the first to find room to slip an LS lump in there, I don't know how long the Impreza block is but with 2 less cylinders length wise it's off to a good start...

It sure would be nice if they can make it easy to use an LS and a Subaru or Porsche trans. I wonder what the weight difference is between an aluminum LS and a turbo Subaru setup.