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Thread: Carl's Mk 4 Roadster Build

  1. #801
    Boydster,

    Agree completely ... The discussion/analysis started to determine whether a bolt through the entire tube set is stronger than two bolts on one side of the roll bar attachment. Some have used two bolts, or more properly screws, where the inner tube is drilled and tapped to accept the thread of the screw.

    My intellectual curiosity and the fact that health issues prevent me from getting back building the car ... drove me to see if I could figure out ground truth.

    What I believe it comes down to:

    1. Because of the ultimate tensile strength and shear strength of the roll over bar materials (304 SS) ... the point of failure is the bolt;
    2. The shank of the bolt is stronger than the threaded portion of the bolt;
    3. That during a roll over the forces and direction of application to the roll over bar will vary considerably during the actual roll and will therefore not be axially down the roll bar tube;
    3. The larger the diameter of the bolt ... the greater its shear strength is; and,
    4. More bolts connecting the tubes assuming the tube integrity remains the same ... increases the shear strength of the assembly.

    Do you agree?

    Clearly in some ways this is just mental gymnastics ... but kind of fun mental gymnastics for this old mechanical engineer.

    Carl
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  2. #802
    Hey Carl,
    Sorry you're not feeling well.

    Nothing wrong with working stuff out, especially if you're stuck indoors. I think all of your thinking is correct, but I had to think about the last one. Base thought is that if you're increasing the area of the yield material, it will handle higher forces... a 3/8 gr8 is stronger than a 1/4 gr8. So 2ea 3/8 gr8 is even better. In our thinking on a rollbar, there are 2 places of single shear, so the area of the failure material is increased and the shear event becomes higher in pressure. But... I dont think the increased shear pressure would be proportionate. At 10k, both parts are starting to shear and I dont think it would last to 20k. But thats just my mind.... no evidence to back it up.

    I have no real engineering background... just a beat up airline mechanic.
    ---Boyd---
    MkIV #9042 build thread
    www.boss427.us
    Plan: 427W-X, TKO600, Moser 3.55 rear.
    Delivered Feb 2017, first start Oct 22, 2017, first go-cart Mar 26, 2018

  3. #803
    Well Used Member boat737's Avatar
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    And how 'bout this...

    If one side of the bolt were to shear before the other (such as one hole was a snug fit, and the other a bigger hole with a loose fit, or a slightly crooked set of holes, or a transverse load pushing sideways on the bar causing one end of the bolt to take the initial force and start to shear first), then once the one end of the bolt began to shear, the other would be back to a single shear, that is two distinct single shear events rather than one dual shear event. You would be back to the (in the example above) 10k pound fail point and not the 20k pound. Does that make sense?
    If Brute Force doesn't work, you're not using enough of it.
    Bought a partially completed MK4. The Basic Stuff: MK4 Complete Kit #8439. The Extra Stuff: Wilwood's, 17" Halibrands, Stainless brake and fuel lines, Breeze cooling and Battery mount.
    The Old Fart Stuff: Heater, Seat Heaters, Footbox Fresh Air, Stereo, Keyless ignition, Power Steering, Hyd Clutch.
    The Young and Dumb Stuff: 427w Dart, TKO600, 3 link Moser M9/Ford 9", 3.5:1, Eaton TruTrac Posi

  4. #804
    I remember this from high school ,,,,only they used trains leaving New York and Florida at different times traveling at different speeds....

  5. #805
    Quote Originally Posted by j.miller View Post
    I remember this from high school ,,,,only they used trains leaving New York and Florida at different times traveling at different speeds....
    I hated those kind of problems ...
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  6. #806

    Updated Chart

    With still more time on my hands should be allowed ...

    Since some folks have used a threaded connection and Craig S had pointed out that the shear strength of the threaded connection ... I decided to look at both options for a single shear case using Grade 8 bolts or another way of looking at it is:

    Assume that the forces are such that the load is not spread over both bolts or both sides of the bolt in a through bolt application. like was discussed in the last posts. I think this is the conservative way of looking at it because it probably is somewhere between the two cases. Other constraints:

    1. Threaded Connections: The strength of the connection in shear is dependent on the diameter of the bolt (which is slight smaller than that of the shank), threads per inch (fine is stronger than course) and thread engagement (how much of the threads in the bolt and the nut (or wall in this case are engaged;

    2. Thread Engagement: The strength is found in the first 4-5 threaded of the engagement ... meaning that just increasing thread engagement without increasing the diameter and number of threads does not really buy that much additional strength;

    3. Adding More Bolts: Meaning either adding more threaded bolts or having one bolt go through the entire tube adds strength but is very dependent on the failure mode or forces on the roll bar as you tumble sideways down the road or track. Based on the theory and that the forces would be applied equally across each location ... yes you would gain strength; but do you want to bet your noggin on that?;

    4. Maximum Thread Engagement: Several sources cite that there is no added strength above 1.5 times the diameter of the bolt threaded area;

    5. Maximum Roll Over Force: 4 x the weight of the car or about 10,000 lb; and,

    6. In this analysis no additional design margin was used but typically I have seen 2-3 used in other analysis. Just for the heck of it I increased the Force in the stress computation ... a threaded connection would always fail and at least 7/16" Grade 8 bolt would keep the joint from failing.




    Conclusions:

    1. If you want to use a threaded connection where the inner tube it drilled and tapped the bolt diameter should be 7/16" or greater but beware that because the wall of the tubes is about .125" thick only about 3 fine threads will be engaged when at ideally you would want just over 15 fine threads per inch to maximize the strength;

    2. Fine Threads add more strength because of the increased thread engagement and the slightly larger nominal diameter. If the tube is unmodified the wall thickness is 1/8" or 0.125". To maximize holding power you would ideally want that to be about 0.84". Boat your coupler idea does that by the way;

    4. Taking account #4 above regarding maximum thread engagement you have very few threads engaged unless you weld in a coupler or a plug to the inner tube to increase its thickness; and,

    5. If you want to use a shank connection where the shank is engaged on all surfaces of the hole of the tube the bolt diameter should be 3/8" or greater.

    Bottom Line: Subject to constraints above, the amount of design margin and the actually forces either method of attaching would work but for most builders using the largest through bolt is the most practical.

    Thoughts ...

    I hope to get cleared by my cardiologist tomorrow so I can get back to real work.

    Carl
    Last edited by carlewms; 01-26-2018 at 09:32 PM.
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  7. #807
    Quote Originally Posted by Boydster View Post
    Hey Carl,
    Sorry you're not feeling well.
    Thanks ... I was having a heart cauterization done to check on my aortic stenosis and to see if I had any blockages. This is normally a routine procedure done on an outpatient basis. In my case it turned out slight less routine ... while it can happen that the heart stops when the catheter touches the wall of the heart, the heart normally starts right up when the catheter is removed.

    In my case it did not and for 2 minutes my heart was stopped until the CPR and drugs got it restarted. It was a bit surreal since I was only sedated and not under general anesthesia so I was aware I passed out but also came to with them pounding on my chest and barking orders to put in those heart starting drugs.

    Carl
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  8. #808
    I have Richard Oben's excellent plenum to install ... and here is my supposed challenge:



    I was planning on using surface mounted studs to install the plenum on the underside of the body but it looks like these would interfere with seal of the firewall.

    Does anyone have photos of the actual installation on a Mk 4 or can post ideas about the best location and manner to install this thing?

    Thanks,

    Carl
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  9. #809
    Quote Originally Posted by carlewms View Post
    <...>
    3. Adding More Bolts: Meaning either adding more threaded bolts or having one bolt go through the entire tube adds strength but is very dependent on the failure mode or forces on the roll bar as you tumble sideways down the road or track. Based on the theory and that the forces would be applied equally across each location ... yes you would gain strength; but do you want to bet your noggin on that?;
    <...>
    Carl
    Another consideration with multiple bolts is that it is unlikely all bolts would see shear forces at the same time - they would all have to be centered in their holes exactly the same "at rest" - unlikely. slight misalignment of the holes in the bar and sleeve would cause one of the bolts to take the weight and begin to shear before any tohers. A similar behavior can be seen in pin-tumbler locks, the pins will typically bind one at a time due to slight imperfections in machining and assembly.

    I may have missed it in the previous analysis, but have you looked at the strength of the roll bar itself? I wonder if they may fail before the hardware.

  10. #810


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    Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    I used that plenum on one car and permanently glassed it to the underside of the cowl. Not a whole lot of flexibility in it's location so measure and mark carefully. Be sure that the right side doesn't hit the heater box which will force the cowl upward---I had to cut and reshape that side of the plenum. I'll look but don't think I have any photos.

    Jeff

  11. #811
    Quote Originally Posted by carlewms View Post
    Thanks ... I was having a heart cauterization done to check on my aortic stenosis and to see if I had any blockages. This is normally a routine procedure done on an outpatient basis. In my case it turned out slight less routine ... while it can happen that the heart stops when the catheter touches the wall of the heart, the heart normally starts right up when the catheter is removed.

    In my case it did not and for 2 minutes my heart was stopped until the CPR and drugs got it restarted. It was a bit surreal since I was only sedated and not under general anesthesia so I was aware I passed out but also came to with them pounding on my chest and barking orders to put in those heart starting drugs.

    Carl
    Holy smokes. Glad you're still with us. Whew.
    ---Boyd---
    MkIV #9042 build thread
    www.boss427.us
    Plan: 427W-X, TKO600, Moser 3.55 rear.
    Delivered Feb 2017, first start Oct 22, 2017, first go-cart Mar 26, 2018

  12. #812
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeAIII View Post
    Another consideration with multiple bolts is that it is unlikely all bolts would see shear forces at the same time - they would all have to be centered in their holes exactly the same "at rest" - unlikely. slight misalignment of the holes in the bar and sleeve would cause one of the bolts to take the weight and begin to shear before any tohers. A similar behavior can be seen in pin-tumbler locks, the pins will typically bind one at a time due to slight imperfections in machining and assembly.

    I may have missed it in the previous analysis, but have you looked at the strength of the roll bar itself? I wonder if they may fail before the hardware.
    Joe,

    Yes I have and it looks like the weak link is the bolts. The strength of the roll bar would be an issue if the holes were too close to the edge and the force was in tension vice compression.
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  13. #813
    Quote Originally Posted by Boydster View Post
    Holy smokes. Glad you're still with us. Whew.
    Wow, puts everything else in perspective. Hope your recovery is speedy and complete.
    -Steve
    MK IV #8901 - Complete kit, Coyote, TKO-600, IRS. Ordered 5/23/16, Delivered 7/14/16, First Start 8/13/17, First Go-Kart 10/22/17. Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...V-Coyote-Build

  14. #814
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner View Post
    I used that plenum on one car and permanently glassed it to the underside of the cowl. Not a whole lot of flexibility in it's location so measure and mark carefully. Be sure that the right side doesn't hit the heater box which will force the cowl upward---I had to cut and reshape that side of the plenum. I'll look but don't think I have any photos.

    Jeff
    Jeff,

    Thanks ... I had to reshape the PS end as well ...

    Cut and ready for glassing. I cut the end off and reused it again after sectioning off the excess.



    After some resin and mat



    A trick my brother told me about (which I am sure the pros here already know about) is using heavy plastic (like freezer bag) wherever you don't want the fiberglass to stick or to help get a slicker surface when finished. The resin will not stick to the plastic.

    Thanks for all your help ...

    Carl
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  15. #815
    Quote Originally Posted by Boydster View Post
    Holy smokes. Glad you're still with us. Whew.
    Me Too ... not to steal a slogan from the women ... I will say that after the stent I feel much much better.

    Carl
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  16. #816

    Reinforcement of the Body for Future Soft Top ...

    I know that I will be adding a soft top in the future ... but right now I have got the body belly side up so I was wondering if there are any areas that could benefit from reinforcement for the soft top installation.

    I would love to get the premium top from FFR but would likely get a less expensive version from Whitby ...

    Thanks in advance for your help.

    Carl
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  17. #817

    Back in the Saddle Again ... Side Louver Installation Part One

    With the saw bones imposed limitations on what I am allowed to do ... I did managed to get some time on the car over the last few days. With the body on its back I wanted to get all the items either installed or mocked up for installation after painting before applying the bed liner to the inside of the body.

    Side Louvers. The louvers that FFR used to ship with the kits were basically a flat piece of aluminum cut out so that you could expand out parts to create the louvers ... I purchased FinishLine's version which are made from a thicker gage aluminum and are preassembled.

    Following in the footsteps of others ... I decided to avoid using velcro or adhesive to mount the louvers and instead went with the surface mounted studs like i used to secure the electrical wiring on the four corners of the car.

    Here is the hardware used ...



    The louvers come with two brackets for the top and the bottom ... these require the surface mount on the studs to be trimmed so as not to be seen through the hole for the louvers. I decided to go a different route by fabricating new "L" brackets where the base of the "L" was wide enough to move the surface mounts clear of the hole. While either method works ... this one allows full engagement of the surface mount on the body wall.

    The assembled louvers were used to position the surface mounted studs to the body. To prevent the 3M HSRF from bonding the bottom of the brackets to the body I temporarily installed nuts on each stud to stand the brackets away from the body.



    Between the wing nut and the temporary nut the studs are adjusted to make sure they were flat on the body ... another lesson learned from the first installation on the PS.

    This photo shows the louvers on the body ... ready removal and application of the HSRF



    After everything was ready including preparing the surface ... I applied HSRF to the bottoms of the surface mounts ...



    Note: The HSRF was really only used to "glue" the louver brackets in place so that I could later apply two layers of fiberglass cloth to provide the strength to the bond. This is before the cloth was applied.



    After cloth was applied ...



    On the first side I had to do a lot of clean up of resin on the post threads and around the bottom of the posts. On both sides used a burr and 45 grit wheel to clean up and smooth out the fiberglass as needed.
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  18. #818


    Not a waxer
    Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    That's the same methods and similar to how I do the side vents.

    Sorry, I haven't checked in for a while but see that you asked about joining the tube to the plenum. When I did it I rummaged around my "hell box" to see what hit me and came up with a PVC conduit connector. Just happen to have one handy right now and snapped a pic:



    After cutting the appropriate sized hole in the plenum what I ended up doing was cutting back the male threads so that they were just long enough to come through the nut after it was installed in the plenum. I also cut the other end back to about 1/2" and glued a short piece of PVC pipe into it to serve as a nipple of sorts to couple the flex tubing. Before bonding the plenum to the underside of the cowl I screwed it together and clamped it down tight. Although I didn't I suppose you could ooze some HSRF on the connector &/or nut if you had concerns about it ever loosening. As you install the body for the final time you'll need to connect and clamp the flex hose before dropping the tail all the way down. Not necessarily my most elegant solution to some of the challenges we face but it was effective and workable.

    Hey! PM me with a phone number---I'm making a whirlwind trip to Manassas in a couple of weeks. No guarantees since my days will probably be pretty full but if I can find a couple of hours to break away I'd love to visit!

    Jeff

  19. #819

    Door Cards from Herb

    Herb put his door cards on sale in January ... the first 20 buyers got a nice discount but one would be drawn for a set of free door cards ...

    I got lucky ... and got these for free. Thanks Herb ...



    Carl
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  20. #820

    Side Louvers - Part 2

    After grinding down the surface where the louvers were mounted I found I still had some gaps between the body and the louvers.



    You can see a small gap between the rear of the louver and the body.

    The fix was pretty simple ... I elongated the holes on the bracket holding the louver so that I could move the louver in to eliminate the gap.





    The other part of the positioning ... the top edge (or in this case the bottom edge) is even with the opening making the lower edge of the louvers slightly below the hole.

    The outline of the louvers was marked to make sure I do not put any bed liner in the area of the louvers.

    Exterior photos ...





    After input from Dan ... these will be cleaned up and powder coated in the car color if I can match it or in clear or chrome.

    Carl
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  21. #821

    Defroster/Demister Mockup - Revisited Part 1

    After finishing up the side louvers, it was time to come up with the final solution for the plenum connection to the heater box. Three issues became apparent once I started trying to fit the plenum:

    The plenum was too long and interfered with the top of the heater box on the Passenger Side.





    The original "T" assembled on the blast gate was too tall for the space behind the dash. I could have made it fit closer to the heater box but it would have made access to some of the electrical connections difficult if no impossible.



    The fore and aft flanges of the plenum interfered with the dash and the bulb seal on the firewall.

    In the original design I had the blast gate attached via some bolts to the flange of the plenum which interfered with the plenum laying flat on the body.

    So now I had to come up with Plan B and, after getting some feedback from Jeff K, I had to cut some of the plenum off, I need to move the blast gate and "T" connection to a location that would not interfere with items behind the dash. I decided to make my own "T" from PVC and a Vintage Air hose coupler while maintaining the blast gate in the system.

    Plenum: The plenum shortened by about 5 in to clear the heater box and the old hold and drill outs were filled in with mat and vinyl ester resin.



    ?T? Connection: I don't like the ?plastic? look of the PVC in particular so I filled in the connection with body filler putty to make it look like this was one piece (later to be painted).



    The 2" hoses fit over the ends of the top of the "T" and will be clamped. The leg of the "T" is drilled to match the holes on the blast gate and attached with self taping screws to attach it to the valve.

    I modified one set of brackets and made a modified bracket so that they would sit on the angled wall of the plenum instead of the flange.



    The edge of the blast gate nose on the inside of the plenum was trimmed down to allow more air flow to the the defroster vents. The rubber gasket, seen here through the fiberglass, was made and installed to prevent air from escaping between the blast gate and the plenum.



    The modification gave me about 1 1/8" more room; now it fits in place. More in Part Two
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  22. #822

    Defroster/Demister Mockup - Revisited Part 2

    A close up of the plenum side of the blast gate and attachment points.The front flange was left as is but the rear flange was trimmed to make sure it did not interfere with the dash.



    It was now ready to mock up on the body ...

    Before removing the body I marked the location of the firewall on the under side of the cowl. This was the limit for forward location of the plenum. The side to side location was reference to the cut out for the DS window post; the DS edge of the plenum is position 5? from the hole which matches to the outside of the mounting location on the frame.Two 1/4?-20 1/2? surface mounted studs were bonded and fiberglassed to attach each end of the plenum to the body. The holes on the plenum were drilled out oversized to allow some adjustment later on when fitting the body back on the car.



    The outlines were made to show areas where I do not want to put the black truck bed liner.
    Last edited by carlewms; 02-08-2018 at 10:16 AM.
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  23. #823
    Senior Member AC Bill's Avatar
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    So what's the point of having a T there, Carl?

    Does your heater only have two outlets, so your using one for the footbox on the drivers side, and the other will feed the defog plenum, and the passenger footbox?

  24. #824
    Bill ... thanks for the question

    Since I am using my heater box as both a source of hot air when cold and "cool" air when it is hot out, i wanted to maximize the amount of flow to the cockpit.

    Here is a diagram of the way I hope it will work ...



    Here are the notes from the drawing since they are a little hard to read ...

    Installation Notes

    1. Red = 2" ducting.
    2. Blue = 3" ducting for Outside Air
    3. F = Forward Facing Round Louver
    4. D = Down Facing Round Louver
    5. 2"BG = 2" Aluminum Blast Gate controlled cockpit
    6. 3"BG = 3" Plastic Blast Gate controlled from Heater Fan Control Knob

    Operations Notes

    1. Heat: Maximize heating by closing both blast gates...no cold air in from the front of the car and no air to the defroster.
    2. Defrost: Maximize defrost by opening 2" blast gate and close louvers...all hot air going to defroster.
    3. Cooling: Maximize cooling by keeping electronic HCV shut during warmest months and opening 3" blast gate.

    Since all the air goes through the fan on the heater ... you also can control the flow with the 3 positions on the fan motor.

    When it is all together and operational ... we will see how well it all works.

    Thanks,

    Carl
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  25. #825


    Not a waxer
    Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Carl,
    You didn't ask but if you had I would have told you that getting provisions in place for a defroster (whether plenum or individual boots) is a pain in the a$$. I'm sure you realize that now!

    Jeff

  26. #826
    That's great work. Your passengers will NEVER understand the mental energy spent, just trying to get heat down to their toes.
    -Steve
    MK IV #8901 - Complete kit, Coyote, TKO-600, IRS. Ordered 5/23/16, Delivered 7/14/16, First Start 8/13/17, First Go-Kart 10/22/17. Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...V-Coyote-Build

  27. #827
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner View Post
    Carl,
    You didn't ask but if you had I would have told you that getting provisions in place for a defroster (whether plenum or individual boots) is a pain in the a$$. I'm sure you realize that now!

    Jeff
    That is a big YES SIR ... I thought putting the pumpkin for the old IRS was painful ... other than the strain on my arms with the pumpkin ... this was far more mentally fatiguing.

    Asking probably would not have stopped me anyway ... I guess I just like the pain LoL.

    Of course I had double the fun since my first design did not work.

    Carl
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  28. #828
    Senior Member dallas_'s Avatar
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    Carl,
    Really like the thought and effort you are putting in your build. Hope SOMEDAY you get it done and bring it to San Marcos.

    John
    FFR 7123 tilt front, Levy 5link/wilwoods/LCA's, webers.
    SL-C in progress

  29. #829

    Body Ready for Cleaning, Masking and Undercoating with Bed Liner ... I Think

    In my haste to get the body ready I almost for got the need to reinforce the area on the body where the Trunk Prop Rod attaches to the body.

    I shaped a piece of wood to serve as the foundation ...After using a dab of Gorilla Glue to hold it in place it was covered with a layers of mat and cloth and allowed to cure over night.



    After further sanding of the area surronding the installed wooden block, the area was prepared for some filler ... more Rage Ultra.



    Here are the details:In my goal to have a more finished look certain areas accessible to view are going to be painted with aluminum paint. The underside of the trunk lid, the hood and the viewable sections are going to be painted with Eastwood Aluma Blast Aerosol Paint 12 oz. (#10109Z). The area marked with the green tape is just outside the vertical walls of the trunk.



    In order to make it look a bit more like metal instead of fiberglass, Rage Ultra was applied to the area to smooth it out a bit.The DS of the underside of the trunk ...I ran out of Rage Ultra so the job is halted until I can pick up another gallon in the morning.

    I am not striving for a perfect surface ... the aluminum isn?t perfect either ... so a few ?dings? are perfectly acceptable (to me at least).

    Thursday and continuing into Friday I kept applying and sanding Rage to the areas accessible inside the trunk. While I had originally planned to duplicate a 427 SC that goal has rapidly evaporated ...

    So I have compromised a bit ... Ok a whole bunch. Basically all areas of the fiberglass which are visible and not covered with bed liner are getting the ?smoothie? treatment so that they at least feel like aluminum under the paint.

    Sanding in progress ... by the way the ultra is a whole lot easier to sand than the rage. As seen below I basically used Rage Ultra (until I ran out) and then Rage Gold to take that fiberglass look and feel out of the accessible areas around the inside of the trunk.



    The Rage Gold ... is the ?golden? color and the Rage Ultra is the off white. I would have preferred Rage Ultra but my local supplier was out and I did not want to wait.Me ... sanding away ...

    Here are the final results ...The Finish Line Trunk Prop Rod base - Top view



    The Finish Line Trunk Prop Rod base - Side view



    The area ready for primer ... its not perfect; just like raw aluminum is not perfect.



    The darn dust is everywhere including the front cockpit cowl making it look like there is Rage applied in those spots ...It is just dust

    It is supposed to be very warm ... in the 70's Thursday so I want to drag the body outside and give it one very good cleaning in preparation for the application of the bed liner on Friday.

    Any recommendations ...
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  30. #830
    Senior Member dallas_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlewms View Post
    I want to drag the body outside and give it one very good cleaning in preparation for the application of the bed liner on Friday.

    Any recommendations ...
    Bed liner sticks to everything. Just try to get it off your clothes if you get any on you. I'd just blow it off thoroughly with compressed air.
    FFR 7123 tilt front, Levy 5link/wilwoods/LCA's, webers.
    SL-C in progress

  31. #831
    Dallas,

    Thanks ... that would save a lot of time ...

    Carl
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  32. #832

    Breeze Roll Bar Installation Part 2

    The Breeze Roll Bar after welding the rear leg to the hoop has 4 parts ...

    The 1,75? roll bar and 3 tubes the transition the roll bar to the 1.5? OD stub tubes on the frame. Two of the tubes are shorter for the front two legs with longer tube for the rear support leg. The roll bar material is 304 SS; I am not sure about the material of the transition pieces.

    After the long analysis with heavy emphasis on the **anal** I [U]initially[U] chose 1/2?-13 Grade 8 bolts, nuts and lock washers to connect all the parts.The shorter ones connect the transition tubes to the stub tubes; the longer ones connect the transition tubes to the roll bar.

    After finding the Grade 8 Nyloc Nuts I had picked up form McMaster Carr I substituted these eliminating some of the lock washers. I also ended up installing one 7/16" diameter bolt to save room on a joint near the body.

    Some notes:

    1. I drilled 1/8? pilot holes and assembled the roll bar before drilling the 1/2? holes for the hardware;
    2. Nails were used to keep holes aligned as the mock-up proceeded;
    3. A little oil on the tubes made the mock-up assembly a lot easier;
    4. I sanded/smoothed the out side of the transition tube to the rear leg in particular to make moving into place easier;
    5. Before removing the body I had marked the roll bar where it transitions the top of the body, and, at Craig?s suggestion, he marked about an inch of the tube to cut to make sure it cleared the body. After several versions of ?on/off? I now realize that was not really necessary ... but only after making the cut;
    6. Where possible I used the drill press ... I drilled the transition tubes before drilling the holes in the stub tubes on the frame with the hand drill. In each case oil was used to cool and lubricate all drilling;



    7. With the exception of the connection between the angled leg and the transition tube i have at least 3/4? from the edge of the end of the tube and the hole; and,
    8. The holes need to be located so both sides are accessible with the body on the frame; made more complicated because I had already installed the wall for the cubby in the forward section of the trunk.

    Day One

    Since it seemed like the third leg ... the angled one ... would be harder to configure, so naturally I started with that one. This was also the one with the first mistake ...

    Stub to Transition Tube: The pilot holes were drilled so that the bolt will be parallel to the centerline of the car but perpendicular to the tubing.

    Day Two

    The initial drilling was done with a 1/8? drill bit with nails used to hold everything in place.The third or rear leg



    After doing two legs I found that I could hold both parts with the vice by putting pressure on the larger diameter pipe.



    Here are the results



    The nails also helped verify that the positions for the bolts would work ... meaning they were accessible.



    The last leg to get pinned was the DS roll bar to transition tube. I called it a night; wanting to tackle the 1/2? drilling with a fresh body and mind.
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  33. #833

    Breeze Roll Bar Installation Part 3

    I continued the installation of the roll bar ... the very messy installation of the darn roll bar.

    With all but one pilot hole drilled I decided to go ahead and drill the 1/2” diameter holes for the hardware and finish the last hole (PS transition to stub tube) after everything else was secured to the frame with the 1/2” hardware.

    As it turned out and somewhat anticipated, it was a long job. Each set of holes took around 30 minutes to drill. With the exception of the stub tubes all the drilling was done with a drill press set to its lowest speed (344 rpm). I tried various combinations of bits but the best was to expand the 1/8” pilot hole with a 1/4” diameter bit working my way up to the 1/2”. The other ingredient ... lots of oil!



    This is the setup on the drill press ... used for all drilling except the stubs.

    One change ... I could not get the fit I wanted on the transition to roll bar tube with 1/2” hardware ... 7/16” worked better and gave more room between the end of the roll bar and the mounting hole.



    I need to buy the right length of 7/16” to fit so that the shank is carrying all the load.





    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  34. #834

    Breeze Roll Bar Installation Part 4

    After a long day yesterday drilling the holes for the roll bar, today left the clean up and the trimming of the hardware to a better fit.

    The front legs required an additional washer on the top bolt. In the photo below the nut cannot fully compress the lock washer because of the solid shank is slightly proud of the surface of the tube.







    I found some 1/2”-13 Grade 8 NyLoc Nuts one of which I installed on the rear leg. I replaced all the plain nuts with these.



    In hindsight I could have made the cubby a little deeper and installed the bolts parallel to the longitudinal axis which would have made access to the bolt head and nut a little easier.

    The area is accessed from the cockpit.

    I checked tool access ... Front Legs



    Rear Leg



    I will likely have to do some adjusting when the body goes back on ... I am hoping that if it’s close it will be under the bezel ... we will just see.

    What remains to be done ...

    1. Cleaning;
    2. Polishing; and,
    3. Final Installation.
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  35. #835
    Carl-

    Nicely done! Thanks for the step-by-step instructions as well.

    Regards,

    Steve

  36. #836
    Senior Member AC Bill's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=carlewms;313151]I continued the installation of the roll bar ... the very messy installation of the darn roll bar.[QUOTE]

    It does look like quit an undertaking..
    So what, if any, is the advantage of using these bars, vs the FFR supplied ones? Certainly they aren't saving you any labor, so is there some additional safety, or is it mainly for the stainless steel look, vs chrome look?

  37. #837
    Bill,

    From an installation perspective they are more difficult to install for 2 reasons in my view:

    1. The rear leg must be welded.
    2. The added transition tubes mean drilling an extra set of holes.

    The advantages are:

    1. A lower profile roll bar with a slight rake to the rear that looks better and is more original looking.
    2. No frankenstein connection.

    I am not sure they would pass the “broomstick” test but I don’t plan to track the car that much.

    One of my goals in the placement of the bolts is to be able to substitute the FFR version if need be. I have the powder coated version of the FFR ... so I plan on trial fitting them to see if if it’s doable before the body goes back on.

    Carl
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  38. #838

    Applying Bed Liner to the Interior of the Body Shell

    After masking the body up in preparation for applying the bed liner and then by early afternoon I was ready to apply. The weather was great 70+ degrees (F) so I was able to open the garage doors and make sure plenty of air was circulating.

    Here is what comes with the Dupli-Color Bed Armor Kit:



    The paint tray is pretty flimsy and, on the second coat, I used one of my own small hard plastic trays which was plenty stout. This was the only negative about the kit ... the biggest positive was that being water-based it was virtually without smell and easy to clean up. Thanks Jeff Kleiner and others for the recommendation.

    Other items used but not pictured:

    3M Painter’s Tape: My experience with the “generic” versions of the tape are not good so I used 3M versions in the 1” and 2” sizes.

    Wet Rag and Bucket of Hot Water ... came in real handy for dealing with spills, drips or spots where the stuff got on the body where it was unintended.

    Flat washers on the 4 surface mounted studs to keep the bedliner away from the threads.

    Eye protection.Preparations: Compressed air was used to blow out all the dust and other debris from the body interior



    Yesterday I had scrubbed the interior with water and degreaser and started the masking process which was finished today.PS rear cockpit edgeThe area around the trunk ... the area filled with Rage will be painted.Work in Progress ...Completed maskingAll masking completed ... sorry photo with all the shadows.

    After two coats in most locations and additional coats in the areas of the wheels. I used about 2/3 gal so far.

    Rear View



    Front View



    The areas around the trunk, front cockpit and the front fenders will be painted with aluminum paint or the body color ... just not sure yet.

    Lessons Learned:

    1. Clean up any messes, drips, runs with water before they dry otherwise its time to break out the sand paper;

    2. There are only a few places on the body that the roller really works (at least for me);

    3. Keep the material stirred up ... even in the tray ... so that the rubber is in suspension; otherwise your just applying a heavy back paint;



    4. As others have said ... where clothes you plan on getting rid of ... this stuff gets all over the place;

    5. I used the 3M blue painter’s tape. It did not ... or I did not get the tape fully sealed on to the rough fiberglass so I had some places where the bed liner snuck up under the tape. It is not really that big of a deal for an area not to be normally seen when the car is together; and,

    6. Per the instructions ... do not remove the masking tape for at least 2 hours. I got eager to remove it and took some of the bed liner with it!
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  39. #839
    Senior Member AC Bill's Avatar
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    Curious as to why you spread it over the entire underside of the body, rather than just in the wheel well areas? Is it not mainly used as protection from stones?

    I painted the entire underside of my body with a black epoxy paint, as a sealer, and only brushed the bed-liner in the wheel well areas. After the car was complete, I also used undercoating on the body and aluminum areas in the wheel wells. It is a better dampener from pebble impact, then the bed liner.

  40. #840
    Funny how they all look the same when you turn them upside down......WHAT ! Oh, that's right.....thought that sounded familiar.....Well done sir !...da Bat

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