Coyote Update - My experience (Tune or no tune?)

[Jester]

Ok – Tune or no tune required for the Coyote (regarding a stalling issue reported in several other posts)?

Here is my experience.

I received plates yesterday and took my Mk4 for a road test - up to typical speed with numerous stops. I did not encounter any of the stalling when coming to stop as reported in other posts. The coyote is very responsive, well-mannered and predictable. TKO 600 takes a little practice. Overall the Coyote was smooth and I have no issues to report.

I installed the Coyote as per the FFR instructions however I did not modify the gas pedal length, so the pedal response is as designed and intended by Ford. I purchased the intake as per FFR parts list which maintains the diameter of the OEM intake. I installed the O2 sensor wires as supplied (original lengths with no modification). I installed the additional speed sender unit (transmission to ECU) as per revised requirements. I also fabricated my own J-Pipes from a set of stainless J-pipes from FFR for a 4.6L (O2 sensor locations ~ 4inches from header connection).

My experience supports the FFR installation instructions and I have not encountered the stalling that others experienced. This may be due to the sensitivity of the system i.e. any modification to O2 sensor wires, intake diameter, O2 sensor position etc., may impact the performance.

If I encounter any issues, I will provide an update.

[DaleG]

Thanks for the post; good to know.

Have those that used the Stainless Headers double merge headers had any issues re O2 sensor location related to tuning needs?

[Slider]

I drove mine, but only at low speeds and no great distance as it isn't licensed yet. I have the headers you reference from "Stainless Headers", and had no issues, but again, I didn't give it any kind of work out. I am planning to take it for a tune on May 1st. In my mind, with what is invested, the cost of a tune by someone who really understands the computer side of this engine, is just a cost that I count as necessary

.

Thanks for the post; good to know.

Have those that used the Stainless Headers double merge headers had any issues re O2 sensor location related to tuning needs?

[Jester]

Slider - Agreed

For the cost of the build, a tune in a minor part to insure proper mapping of the syatem.

Has anyone found an off the shelf tuner with a proper tune as a DIY or share a tune to be uploaded?

Thx

[FFinisher]

The speed sensor which you already installed has been reported to solve the stalling issue.

It is believed with the speed sensor you will not have a stalling issue.

To tune? or not to tune... That is the question.

[tcoon]

I started driving my coyote competition coupe last weekend, putting 250 miles on it in many driving conditions, including stop and go traffic in 90 deg heat. I did install the speed dial and it runs VERY well, with no stalling or drivability issues. It has tended to surge when first started in cold 40 deg weather, but that clears quickly once warmed up. Since this is a race car I chose also to do a max hp tune, looking for about 50 more hp. Just installed the tune today and have not dyno'd it yet, but it clearly runs HARD with the tune and I can't wait to see the numbers! This thing pulls like a freight train from 5000-7000 rpm and that passes in the blink of an eye. WOW! Way more power than my new era challenge car...

[bansheekev]

Who did you use to tune the car? I'm in the Bay Area and will eventually need to find a tuner for the Coyote crate setup.

Thanks, Kevin

I started driving my coyote competition coupe last weekend, putting 250 miles on it in many driving conditions, including stop and go traffic in 90 deg heat. I did install the speed dial and it runs VERY well, with no stalling or drivability issues. It has tended to surge when first started in cold 40 deg weather, but that clears quickly once warmed up. Since this is a race car I chose also to do a max hp tune, looking for about 50 more hp. Just installed the tune today and have not dyno'd it yet, but it clearly runs HARD with the tune and I can't wait to see the numbers! This thing pulls like a freight train from 5000-7000 rpm and that passes in the blink of an eye. WOW! Way more power than my new era challenge car...

[tcoon]

I used JMS chip from Mississippi...they are recommended on several of the mustang forums as having the most experience with coyote swap applications, and have the "fix" for the stall issue. Have done several hundred of these applications. They use a SCT handheld with 3 optional custom tunes. For the tune they need your intake diameter and the distance from throttle body to MAF. Seems to work well. They mentioned 415 hp with a stock mustang air box and long tube headers...we'll see! If I make more than that I will have to back down to make my class wt/hp ratio.

[bansheekev]

Another vote for JMS, this is good. My last Mustang was a blown 2V 4.6 and all the people I talked to while I was doing that motor had good things to say about them too. Seems like the Coyote crate swap is a little bit different but if they have that many of them under their belt I am happy.

Thanks

Kevin

I used JMS chip from Mississippi...they are recommended on several of the mustang forums as having the most experience with coyote swap applications, and have the "fix" for the stall issue. Have done several hundred of these applications. They use a SCT handheld with 3 optional custom tunes. For the tune they need your intake diameter and the distance from throttle body to MAF. Seems to work well. They mentioned 415 hp with a stock mustang air box and long tube headers...we'll see! If I make more than that I will have to back down to make my class wt/hp ratio.

[Jester]

I started driving my coyote competition coupe last weekend, putting 250 miles on it in many driving conditions, including stop and go traffic in 90 deg heat. I did install the speed dial and it runs VERY well, with no stalling or drivability issues. It has tended to surge when first started in cold 40 deg weather, but that clears quickly once warmed up. Since this is a race car I chose also to do a max hp tune, looking for about 50 more hp. Just installed the tune today and have not dyno'd it yet, but it clearly runs HARD with the tune and I can't wait to see the numbers! This thing pulls like a freight train from 5000-7000 rpm and that passes in the blink of an eye. WOW! Way more power than my new era challenge car...

Tcoon

Did you need to disconnect the speed dial when you uploaded the new tune or did the new tune work together with the speed dial?

I spoke with JMS and placed my order for a new tune last week

Thx

[tcoon]

I did not disconnect the speed dial. So far great experience with the tune. Ran it hard at the HB autocross event today and it performed flawlessly, making great power and no issues. Driving around LA (2 days of stop and go, one hour trip each way to Riverside on freeway and through town), even with the max power tune, was effortless. The "fix" for the stall issue seems to be a computer programmed delay of about a minute which holds the idle speed at 1500 rpm when you roll to a stoplight. After a minute or so it drops to about 750. A little weird at first but actually works well to keep the rpm up in case you need to start up right away. Keeps you From killing the engine with a quick clutch pop.
Tom

[DaleG]

Just got off the phone with FRPP today: Re Speed Dial M-4209ADPT-AC. They fixed (re-flashed PCM) that problem ages ago, he said. If ordering now or in the fairly recent past...not sure how long ago...you do not need the Speed Dial to correct the stall issue. However, if someone has one (PCM) on the shelf, it may date back to the "pre-flash" era. So, if ordering, make sure to check on this. I'm ordering my stuff from Mike F tomorrow and will be sure to check.

Cheers, Dale

[tcoon]

Dyno today with only 400 mi on the engine, stock Ford crate coyote with speed dial and power tune from JMS Chip. 398 HP at 7000 RPM! Don't need no stinkin' Boss!

video link..http://youtu.be/eZnZ7ndsQys

[bansheekev]

Looks like Air Fuel Ratio hovers at 13:1. My last modular motor was a supercharged 2v 4.6L and a safe tune for that setup at 7-8 psi was 12:1 per the tuner. What AFR is considered safe for the normally aspirated coyote? I am guessing 13:1 is fine per JMS's recommendations but I figured I would ask anyway...

Kevin

Dyno today with only 400 mi on the engine, stock Ford crate coyote with speed dial and power tune from JMS Chip. 398 HP at 7000 RPM! Don't need no stinkin' Boss!

video link..http://youtu.be/eZnZ7ndsQys

[ClemsonS197]

Dyno today with only 400 mi on the engine, stock Ford crate coyote with speed dial and power tune from JMS Chip. 398 HP at 7000 RPM! Don't need no stinkin' Boss!

video link..http://youtu.be/eZnZ7ndsQys

What's your exhaust set up?

[tcoon]

13:1 is considered ideal for combustion. Main thing is you don't want to go lean at power, certainly not above 14:1. 12:1 is safe but a little rich...but probably good for a supercharged engine.

Exhaust is FFR supplied BBK headers and J pipes, custom 3" sidepipes by Doug Marino in Fresno. The J pipes make a pretty sharp bend at the frame rails and I'm probably losing 10-20 hp there...it would require a whole set of custom headers/j pipes to rectify this, and I'm only 15 hp shy of the maximum allowed for my class/weight combination. Think I'll see how it runs before I make any expensive changes...

[bansheekev]

Since the target is 13:1 I impressed with JLT's tune. Spot on over the entire RPM range by mail... Looks great. I'm going to use the stainless headers 4:1:4 setup and am shooting for 425 at the wheels.

Thanks

Kevin

13:1 is considered ideal for combustion. Main thing is you don't want to go lean at power, certainly not above 14:1. 12:1 is safe but a little rich...but probably good for a supercharged engine.

Exhaust is FFR supplied BBK headers and J pipes, custom 3" sidepipes by Doug Marino in Fresno. The J pipes make a pretty sharp bend at the frame rails and I'm probably losing 10-20 hp there...it would require a whole set of custom headers/j pipes to rectify this, and I'm only 15 hp shy of the maximum allowed for my class/weight combination. Think I'll see how it runs before I make any expensive changes...

[Slider]

I'll have my Coyote back from the Tuner by the end of the week. I am running the Stainless Headers with the 4:1:4. I'll let you know what the results are. The 390hp at the wheels is what he (tuner) said is normal on a stock Coyote.

Since the target is 13:1 I impressed with JLT's tune. Spot on over the entire RPM range by mail... Looks great. I'm going to use the stainless headers 4:1:4 setup and am shooting for 425 at the wheels.

Thanks

Kevin

[bansheekev]

Eagerly waiting to hear the results! Let us know.

Thanks

Kevin

I'll have my Coyote back from the Tuner by the end of the week. I am running the Stainless Headers with the 4:1:4. I'll let you know what the results are. The 390hp at the wheels is what he (tuner) said is normal on a stock Coyote.

[tcoon]

I am interested in the results with stainless headers as well...typically with a race car we like to push the hp as much as possible within class limits, and I need about 15 more...question is it worth $1000 and pulling the engine to change headers for the possible power gain?

[bansheekev]

To my knowledge, Stainless Headers only has a jig for the roadster, not the coupe (thank you Slider). Could be signficantly more $ than thier production jig price on the 4:1:4 ones for the roadster. BTW - even with the jig, stainless 4:1:4's are $1200 for the roadster.

Kevin

I am interested in the results with stainless headers as well...typically with a race car we like to push the hp as much as possible within class limits, and I need about 15 more...question is it worth $1000 and pulling the engine to change headers for the possible power gain?

[ClemsonS197]

I am interested in the results with stainless headers as well...typically with a race car we like to push the hp as much as possible within class limits, and I need about 15 more...question is it worth $1000 and pulling the engine to change headers for the possible power gain?

They start at $649 for the Roadster. Nicest materials, double collector run $1275. Give Chris a call and see if he'll work with you on a coupe. They are a very friendly business to deal with.

http://www.stainlessheaders.com/coyote

[Slider]

Tuner called today. I pick up the car on Friday morning. He said things are running beautifully, had a small issue with the fan not turning on, so he and I are working on tracking that down now (see different thread ongoing at the moment). Also had a cooling system issue where I blew a cap off somewhere and coolant everywhere (big disappointment and big mess) so he is getting things cleaned up and back on the Dyno tomorrow. He wouldn't share numbers at this point, but said I'd be happy, and that he thinks he can get a little better for me tomorrow with a few tweaks. Also, just for reference, I asked him to tune it for daily driving. With somewhere near 400 RWHP, and not planning to race on a track, I'm more concerned with having it run nicely for my daily use then for squeezing every ounce out of it (at this point). That however is the nice thing with the Coyote, he will likely create a second "Performance" tune, that will take all of 4 minutes to load and update the car, for when I do decide to get on a track! Then another 4 minutes to get the "Daily Driver" tune reinstalled. I'm also having him build a tune that will limit speed to 65mph and RPMS to a reasonable level that I can use when my son starts driving in a few years!

I'll be back with more details on Friday!

[tcoon]

Hey Slider any news yet? I'm curious to see where you came out. I'm quite pleased with 398 hp, considering Dave Smith's Boss came in at 388!

[Slider]

Sorry, been traveling for business the last few days. Long and short is that I have the car back and it works great. I don't however have the Dyno detail info as the guy who did the tune was gone by the time I was able to pick up the car. His partner thought it came in at about 386 RWHP, but wasn't positive. Recall that I did NOT have them tune for Max Performance. If it's 386, then I'm quite happy for how I will be using the car. I did just call him again and asked him to send the Dyno Sheet, and will post exact details when I get it and when I'm back at home. Hopefully in the next few days, as I've a little work to do before the finished body goes back on the car on Friday!

Hey Slider any news yet? I'm curious to see where you came out. I'm quite pleased with 398 hp, considering Dave Smith's Boss came in at 388!

[ATOLightning]

Hey Slider any news yet? I'm curious to see where you came out. I'm quite pleased with 398 hp, considering Dave Smith's Boss came in at 388!

I was thinking Dave's MK4 was a crate Coyote with the Boss Intake op top...not 100%, though.

Not that that would take anything away from that car. It's pretty sweet.

[ClemsonS197]

I was thinking Dave's MK4 was a crate Coyote with the Boss Intake op top...not 100%, though.

Not that that would take anything away from that car. It's pretty sweet.

Correct. FF just added the Boss Intake to the standard Coyote. The Boss intake is mostly show. Gain a few HP, lose a few ft-lbs.

[Slider]

Dyno Results from my Coyote: Just got the attached image from the Tune shop. I've asked him to provide more detail, but haven't heard back from him yet. Looks like with the conservative tune that I requested, I'm making about 386 RWHP. The 400 RWHP referenced above seems completely attainable with a more aggressive set up. Better yet, the engine is running beautifully. No Stall issue or any of the other issues others mentioned with the Coyote in the roadster. Seems like the tune is all that is needed as I did not install the speed dial.

Dyno Run 1.jpeg

[ATOLightning]

Dyno Results from my Coyote: Just got the attached image from the Tune shop. I've asked him to provide more detail, but haven't heard back from him yet. Looks like with the conservative tune that I requested, I'm making about 386 RWHP. The 400 RWHP referenced above seems completely attainable with a more aggressive set up. Better yet, the engine is running beautifully. No Stall issue or any of the other issues others mentioned with the Coyote in the roadster. Seems like the tune is all that is needed as I did not install the speed dial.

Dyno Run 1.jpeg

That looks great. You're using the FFR j-pipes and headers, right? What about your air intake? Are you using something similar to what FFR suggested? How's the throttle response and how quick does it rev?

Thanks!

[Slider]

I'm actually using the 4:1:4 headers from Stainless Headers. The air intake is roughly the same as what was prescribed by FF, but I exchanged the air filter for one from K&N. The throttle response seems to be spot on, and very quick. I haven't hit it super hard yet myself but I believe I'll have all the performance I want right now. The tuner suggested that once I get used to driving it I come back (Maybe next summer) and we cn discuss any changes I might want. He figured he could get another 20-25 HP with a few fairly minor adjustments (A little more aggressive on the timing, etc) if I wanted it. And also set up the performance differently if I'm looking for faster acceleration times, or road course driving. Frankly, I don't think the tune is going to be the limiting factor in acceleration, but rather getting traction! I took a few pictures of the engine bay and body (attached) this morning just before I loaded it up and took it to the body shop for the final fit of the body. Planning for state inspection by the DOT on Tuesday/Wednesday and licensed and on the street by the end of next week.

2013-05-16 22.18.33.jpg

2013-05-16 22.18.43.jpg

2013-05-16 22.19.37.jpg

2013-05-16 22.19.42.jpg

That looks great. You're using the FFR j-pipes and headers, right? What about your air intake? Are you using something similar to what FFR suggested? How's the throttle response and how quick does it rev?

Thanks!

[bansheekev]

Hey Slider, quick question on your TKO... Is that a mid-shift conversion? Who's is it? With the Coyote sitting a couple inches further forward than other engine combos, the mid shift looks like its starting to get pretty close to the dash. How does it feel? I am wondering if the standard shift location with a z-bend stick would work almost or as well as a mid shift?

Kevin

[Slider]

No problem at all with the midshift conversion. (Forte did the conversion for me) I actually really like the feel as it is exactly where my hand naturally falls. The throw in the TKO600 is really short so while it does get somewhat close, I've never even touched my knuckles to the dash. Now... it might be an issue if I was wearing boxing gloves... but I haven't driven with those on in quite some time. I think that part of the illusion of the closeness is that I built the accessory box under the dash and it does look in the pictures like it is very close to the shifter. It is close, but not as close as it looks. I actually chose to use the midshift after sitting in someone else's MKIV who had the standard position shifter with the forward bend. It was quite uncomfortable for me. I really like how this turned out. But I know it is completely a matter of personal preference.

[ATOLightning]

I'm actually using the 4:1:4 headers from Stainless Headers. The air intake is roughly the same as what was prescribed by FF, but I exchanged the air filter for one from K&N. The throttle response seems to be spot on, and very quick. I haven't hit it super hard yet myself but I believe I'll have all the performance I want right now. The tuner suggested that once I get used to driving it I come back (Maybe next summer) and we cn discuss any changes I might want. He figured he could get another 20-25 HP with a few fairly minor adjustments (A little more aggressive on the timing, etc) if I wanted it. And also set up the performance differently if I'm looking for faster acceleration times, or road course driving. Frankly, I don't think the tune is going to be the limiting factor in acceleration, but rather getting traction! I took a few pictures of the engine bay and body (attached) this morning just before I loaded it up and took it to the body shop for the final fit of the body. Planning for state inspection by the DOT on Tuesday/Wednesday and licensed and on the street by the end of next week.

Oops, I was thinking about tcoon. I think his numbers were pretty close to yours, but he was closer to a max tune with the FFR stuff. You were able to do a milder tune with the Stainless products. Either way, like you mentioned, traction will be the first issue to have to overcome. I was at the Z-Max Dragway with Dave Smith and the FFR gang when he raced the original for MuscleCar TV. I'm pretty sure he could have smoked the tires all the way down the strip and with every gear change if he wanted to.

[bansheekev]

I talked to Dave Smith in Huntington Beach about that drag day and he said his best time was with one shift - launch in 2nd and wind it to 7300+ rpm in 3rd to the 1/4 mile. Hit the limiter just before the finish. What a riot... Funny story.

Kevin

Oops, I was thinking about tcoon. I think his numbers were pretty close to yours, but he was closer to a max tune with the FFR stuff. You were able to do a milder tune with the Stainless products. Either way, like you mentioned, traction will be the first issue to have to overcome. I was at the Z-Max Dragway with Dave Smith and the FFR gang when he raced the original for MuscleCar TV. I'm pretty sure he could have smoked the tires all the way down the strip and with every gear change if he wanted to.

[ATOLightning]

I talked to Dave Smith in Huntington Beach about that drag day and he said his best time was with one shift - launch in 2nd and wind it to 7300+ rpm in 3rd to the 1/4 mile. Hit the limiter just before the finish. What a riot... Funny story.

Kevin

Yeah, he hit 2nd or 3rd one time and it scared me to death to watch. I think my wife and I both turned our heads for a few seconds. That run was his worst time, but it was still pretty quick

[bansheekev]

Best time, worst time - he was talking so fast that I guess I got it mixed up. It was definitely an entertaining story.

Kevin

Yeah, he hit 2nd or 3rd one time and it scared me to death to watch. I think my wife and I both turned our heads for a few seconds. That run was his worst time, but it was still pretty quick

[tcoon]

Absolutely would do the mid shift conversion. Mine is the Tremec and the throw is short and crisp. Rather stiff still since the tranny is new. It falls right in the palm of your hand. No problem with dash clearance. The traditional rear shift with dogleg shifter is a PIA.

Yes I have the FFR headers and J pipes and made 398 RWHP using SAE calibration. These J pipes make a very sharp bend at the frame and I am sure I'm losing HP there. At this point though, 398 is plenty and I just need to get it to the ground! About to find out tomorrow how much fun that will be, it's my first track day at Thunderhill! YEEHAA!

[ATOLightning]

Best time, worst time - he was talking so fast that I guess I got it mixed up. It was definitely an entertaining story.

Kevin

Nah, I think you had it right. I was refering to a time when he made a 2-3 shift towards the end and broke the wheels loose...that was his worst time.

[Slider]

How did the first day at the track go?

About to find out tomorrow how much fun that will be, it's my first track day at Thunderhill! YEEHAA!

[bansheekev]

Slider,

I think I know the answer but want to verify... Coyote with QuickTime bell housing and TKO-600 - does the mid shift require frame modification to the cross brace on too of the tunnel? I think the answer is no. Just checking.

Thanks

Kevin

No problem at all with the midshift conversion. (Forte did the conversion for me) I actually really wlike the feel as it is exactly where my hand naturally falls. The throw in the TKO600 is really short so while it does get somewhat close, I've never even touched my knuckles to the dash. Now... it might be an issue if I was wearing boxing gloves... but I haven't driven with those on in quite some time. I think that part of the illusion of the closeness is that I built the accessory box under the dash and it does look in the pictures like it is very close to the shifter. It is close, but not as close as it looks. I actually chose to use the midshift after sitting in someone else's MKIV who had the standard position shifter with the forward bend. It was quite uncomfortable for me. I really like how this turned out. But I know it is completely a matter of personal preference.