"Fixing" coupe wheel wells

[JohnK]

Apologies if this question offends anyone. You know what they say about opinions...

To my eye, the coupe wheel wells just don't look "right." Regardless of wheel size, they just look too big, resulting in too much gap between tire and wheel well unless the car is lowered to an almost undriveable ride height. Has anyone here attempted to rework the fenders to make them a touch smaller? For comparison, the Superformance Daytona Coupes look much better to my eye. Here's a comparison of the Superformance rear wheel wells vs. the FFR Coupe.

FFR Coupe:



Superformance Daytona Coupe:

[GoDadGo]

John,

If you are running a 3-Link you can simply run control arms.
That's what I did on my MK-4 Roadster.
You just need to make sure you have enough room for the yoke to go into the trans.

https://youtu.be/9WEe6-wdNtA

https://youtu.be/iwslgKJUaKc

If you are running an IRS, then I've got nothing for you unless you want to start glassing.
Good Luck!

[JohnK]

Hey GoDad - thanks for the comment. Yes, I've seen what you did with Redbone. That's pretty slick. IMO, there are a couple of problems with the wheel wells on the coupe and, to a lesser extent, on the roadster (though at the end of the day I'm happy enough with the 18"s on my roadster). The rear wheels not being centered definitely aggravates the issue, but IMO the wheel wells on the coupe are just too large. Centering the wheel helps, and lowering the car can close the gap between the top of the tire and the wheel well, but this still doesn't address the rest of the wheel well. I've looked at running 15"s, as they are about an inch larger diameter than 17"s or 18"s, but even with 15"s it still looks off. So I guess when I'm asking about "fixing" the wheel wells I'm asking about glass work.

[Peter Ross]

Hey GoDad - thanks for the comment. Yes, I've seen what you did with Redbone. That's pretty slick. IMO, there are a couple of problems with the wheel wells on the coupe and, to a lesser extent, on the roadster (though at the end of the day I'm happy enough with the 18"s on my roadster). The rear wheels not being centered definitely aggravates the issue, but IMO the wheel wells on the coupe are just too large. Centering the wheel helps, and lowering the car can close the gap between the top of the tire and the wheel well, but this still doesn't address the rest of the wheel well. I've looked at running 15"s, as they are about an inch larger diameter than 17"s or 18"s, but even with 15"s it still looks off. So I guess when I'm asking about "fixing" the wheel wells I'm asking about glass work.

I struggled with this very topic. This is a complicated slippery slope. The forward part of the wheel wells are a different width left to right than the rear of the wheel wells. The arches intersect the fender hips' deminishing arcs. If those arcs are extended to create the desired clearance the car gets wider by default of the extended arcs. The doors are included in extensions. At that point it makes sense to create a sill, isolating the door edge from wheel well.
You need the wheel and tires equally staggered, equal air pressure to create a plug to create the new arches.
The slippery slope I referred to is once you get the rear wheel wells altered you can't help but feel the front needs help. I've done this to an R&D (Now Shell Valley) Daytona Coupe and it is daunting. Honestly, to my aging eye, the Factory Five Type 65 looks better than the Superformance. The Superformance arch is too far aft but it illustrates your point.

[JohnK]

Hey Peter. Yes, I can see how this would very quickly turn into a very complicated and expensive endeavor. I posted photos of the rear wheel wells to illustrate the point, but I agree that the fronts also need help. The rear edge of the door being part of the rear wheel well shape certainly doesn't make things any easier. I've been mulling this over for a long time now, trying to talk myself into building a coupe, but at the end of the day I really can't get past the concern that I'm going to spend years building it and then stand back when it's all finished and not be 100% happy with the outcome.

[Peter Ross]

John, I get it.
I'll make this quick. There were so many changes to the R&D Coupe that it became a plug for a new rear clip mold. Laminated a new rear body, cut the old clip/plug and bonded the new rear clip. I wanted to build a Daytona Coupe but worried I would fuss with glasswork. Visited Factory Five Open House, took a factory tour a few weeks later and oredered a Coupe-R. Mike Everson built the car. Bodywork, some carbon fiber items and paint will happen in my shop but no custom body related glasswork. It's the only way I'm going to drive and enjoy the car. I'm happy with the quality of the FFR body and I don't look at anything on the body thinking "I need to change that."
Buy the kit..........

[Namrups]

If the shape of the wheel well is giving you nightmares than what are you going to do about the fact that in a lot of cases the hood is offset to the passengers side by 1" also or that the side windows don't match exactly or that the sidepipes might not line up with the body the same. These cars are far from perfect. But man are they a blast to drive and showoff! You have to be the one that is happy with your build. Most people that look at it will never see what you are seeing.

[JohnK]

That's a lot of "whataboutism's". I'm well aware of the asymmetries and imperfections in the coupe and roadster bodies. We all need to decide for ourselves what we're OK with, and what we're not. For me, the wheel wells and resulting stance of the car are glaring, and detract significantly.

[edwardb]

I honestly don't know what you're going to do about it that doesn't involve MAJOR body work. I agree the FF Coupe shows more open wheel well than the Superformance. I have my ride height at 3-1/4 inches in the front and 3-3/4 inches in the back. That's as low as I'm taking it on the street. I'm careful and all has been OK except for one speed bump (Grr...). I suspect most are setting theirs in that range. The build manual says 4-1/2 inches front and back. I've seen a couple that I think were probably set about that height. Not the best look IMO. This picture shows how mine looks. Maybe just a bit tighter than the picture you posted. But not much. 18" wheels with Goodrich Rival S tires. The edges of the tires are right at the edge of the openings. 1 inch spacers in the back, none in front. If the openings were as tight as the Superformance, there could be an issue with the tires running into the body. The solution is to suck them in a bit. That's not a good look either if in excess. My Coupe is in its fifth driving season, has been in dozens of shows, a bunch of trophies, and no one has said anything negative about the wheel well space. But I get if something bothers you it's the first thing you see every time you look at the car. One approach that's significant but way less than body work would be to bag it. You could lower it every time it's at rest. Might be kind of cool. But I'm way past being over this. We love the Coupe just the way it is.

[JohnK]

Hi Paul. Thanks for the thoughts, I really appreciate it. And apologies again to anyone that takes offense to anything I've written.

Wow - that's a pretty low ride height you're running. Knowing that, and seeing your car is very helpful, as is your validation that any meaningful reworking of the wheel wells is going to get very complicated and costly in a hurry.

Interesting that you mention bagging the car, as this is also another option I've considered. Not sure if you've seen the YouTube videos that 520 Speedworks put out a while back installing an Air Lift suspension on a roadster. Pretty cool. I've explored several options, including Air Lift, Stance Cups, and Hybrid Air. Of all of those, I like the hybrid air system the best, as it's an air bag over a regular coil over suspension. When deflated, it adds zero stack height and has no effect on the function of the coil over. It can be inflated to raise the car and, unlike the stance cups, can be driven at any height like some modern cars that have multiple drive settings. So in theory, it could be set up so that when it's fully deflated it's at a "track" or "highway" (or "show") height, and then you could have several higher settings for street driving, speed bumps and driveways, trailer entry, etc. All of these systems are somewhat complicated, with a compressor and air tank and control system stashed away somewhere, but as you say it might be the best solution to being able to manage ride height and get closer to the look I'm picturing in my head.

[J R Jones]

John,
In my professional life I have enjoyed working with several styling/design departments. I pay attention to their expertise. I can envision odd design and in response to one of my suggestions Ed said "an asymmetrical design will never sell as well as a symetrical design". That concept can be extrapolated to include concentricity of wheels, tires, and wheel openings.
Moreover mass and proportion is to be considered, tire/wheel to opening and tire/wheel to body. Your examples have been contemporary big wheel, thin tire applications but not the traditional 15in wheels with high profile tires, which I prefer; just me.
A recent experience of mine was shopping for a Jaguar XKR coupe. Jag offered wheels in 18, 19 and 20in diameters. I found a beautiful black coupe with 20in BBS wheels but IMO it looked "ghetto" to me. I eventually found a red coupe with 19in wheels that I preferred and bought.
jim

XK8 Jag 2.jpg

16AUG drive.jpg

[Rsnake]

Good morning Johnk,
I am going to agree with you and have an easy fix. The type 65 in street height with 18" wheels does have issue with wheel gaps. I believe the car body was designed for race height but won't be fun on the street being so low. I am running 3.75" up front and 4" in the rear and it's about as low as I am comfortable going plus the 335's in the rear will rub if I go lower but that's another discussion. Snowman has 19's on his type 65 and it looks amazing. The extra inch of tire heigh fills the gaps plus he can lower the car and keep the same ride height. I did a video of his car on my YouTube channel "Cobra Daytona Build" about five episodes ago titled Interview w/Patrick. The look is perfect and if I build another it will be with 19's

[JohnK]

Jim, I agree with you on tire/wheel aesthetics with regard to wheel size. The photos I posted above have modern wheel packages mainly because I couldn't find good photos comparing Superfomance and FFR coupes with 15" wheels, but the fender comparison is valid, IMO, regardless of wheel/tire size. My personal theory is that the lower profile the tire is, the tighter the gap between tire and fender needs to be. A 15" tire/wheel can get a way with a slightly larger wheel well gap and not look wrong, IMO. Modern 18"+ wheels really do need to be pretty tight to the fender to look right to me. I have a 67 Mustang (my avatar photo) that a previous owner had put 17" Torq Thrust wheels on, and I was not a fan of the look. I replaced them with 15" Shelby 10 spokes and get so many compliments on the stance of the car. I started this other thread recently asking about 15" wheels on a gen 3 coupe. It doesn't seem like many people go that route but stylistically it is definitely my preference and likely the way I'll end up going. The fact that they're 1" larger diameter definitely helps fill the wheel wells a bit more also.

Rsnake, the 19" are intriguing and I can see how they would fill the wheel wells better but probably not the direction I'm looking to go with the aesthetics of the car.

[Jeff Kleiner]

...I started this other thread recently asking about 15" wheels on a gen 3 coupe. It doesn't seem like many people go that route but stylistically it is definitely my preference and likely the way I'll end up going. The fact that they're 1" larger diameter definitely helps fill the wheel wells a bit more also.

And there you go. The commonly used 18" tire sizes are 265/35 front and 315/30 rear which measure 25.4" diameter and 25.5 respectively. Going to a 245/60-15 and 295/50-15 combination gives diameters of 26.5" and 26.8". In addition to the overall diameters being 1.1-1.3" more I think the visual of the much chunkier sidewall will tend to trick the eye and make the extra wheel well space less prominent. Additionally, with the larger overall diameter the tires would be tucked up higher into the wheel well by >.5" to >.6" for the same chassis ride height.

Jeff

[JohnK]

Hey Jeff! Thanks for the input. In that other thread, Drew posted a couple of photos of his coupe with 15's. Do you happen to have any other photos of customer gen 3 coupes with 15's?

Thanks,
John

[J R Jones]

John, In regard to Mustangs and period wheels, I have had a couple of Shelbys that got tire upgrades all on 15in wheels. One of the cars went from street to (vintage) track and the other was a Trans Am race car build.
jim

Shelby in 1968.jpg

image1.jpeg

Shelby SFP.jpg

[edwardb]

At the risk of repeating what's said on here probably at least weekly, 15 inch wheels give the vintage look. But be prepared for limited tire and brake options. For some the look is most important. And sounds like it helps with the wheel well look. I hadn't researched that so find it interesting. Since we're sharing opinions, IMO handling and braking are more important than looks.

The use of 19" wheels is definitely something to look at. I had forgotten about that one. The prototype in FF's showroom has 19" wheels (Forgestars as I recall) and they're tighter. A number of pictures on FF's website.

[Rsnake]

I do love the period correct look of 15" wheels, but my 14" brakes and high performance tires just won't work and I am into performance over looks but for a street cruiser I would go 15" wheels.

[Skuzzy]

I do love the period correct look of 15" wheels, but my 14" brakes and high performance tires just won't work and I am into performance over looks but for a street cruiser I would go 15" wheels.

For my car, which wil be a street cruiser, I am going with 18" wheels, but using a 295/35x18 rear tire which is slightly smaller in diameter (26.1") than the billboards. I figure that will fill the wheel well opening a bit better.

[JohnK]

Thanks everyone - great input. Couple more thoughts:

- Yes, I agree that, in theory, 18's or 19's with big brakes will perform better than 15's. My plan (if I can even call it that at this early stage) would be to use Gordon Levy's Wilwood package for 15" wheels. I've talked with Gordon about this package, and he feels that braking performance with this package is as good as the Wilwood package that FFR offers for the 17/18 wheels for anything short of endurance racing. Heat dissipation is the primary difference between the smaller and larger brakes. Likely will never be an issue on the street and he felt that his brake package was more than sufficient for even autocross and track days.

- Tire selection is definitely an issue with 15's. If performance is a consideration, you have one choice - Avons. At 80 TW, they're plenty sticky enough but expensive as &*$%.

- Going with Gordon's Wilwood package would essentially give me the option of running 15's for the looks and also being able switch to 18's or 19's if I wanted to track or autocross the car with higher-performance wheels/tires.

[JohnK]

The use of 19" wheels is definitely something to look at. I had forgotten about that one. The prototype in FF's showroom has 19" wheels (Forgestars as I recall) and they're tighter. A number of pictures on FF's website.

Circling back on this suggestion for a moment... the more I look at them, I do like the way 19's fill the rear wheel wells, so I've been exploring staggered 18/19 setups a little bit to understand my options. Does anyone know of a company that makes 19" Halibrand replicas? Vintage Wheels shows 17", 18", and 20" options. I gave them a quick call to see if they can make a 19" wheel and he said that they actually do have a forged Halibrand replica wheel that's not on their website that can be custom-made in 19" size, but they're stupid-expensive (like $6K/set). Anyone aware of other options besides this?

[John Dol]

Couple of things to think about.
How far does the tire come out to the fender. A lot of cars have the tires tucked in a fair bit. That makes the opening around the wheel look bigger.
Also from the vantage point of your picture you are square to the wheel to notice this. These cars (as you have seen) are very low and in normal walk by mode it doesnt look nearly as glaring.
I have 17" wheels with 315/35 and 4" ride height but with the sn95 axle which comes out a bit further.
billboards.jpg
For full transparancy this is a gen II.

HTH

John

[Jeff Kleiner]

John,
RE: 19s
I was at FFR last week and checked Dave's Coupe.
Front is 265/30-19 with a diameter of 25.3"
Rear is 325/35-19 with a diameter of 26.7"



Jeff

[JohnK]

Thanks Jeff! I've always really liked the look of that car. It's too bad Forgiato discontinued those wheels. Do you know if they had to modify the frame to get that rear wheel in there?

[Jeff Kleiner]

Thanks Jeff! I've always really liked the look of that car. It's too bad Forgiato discontinued those wheels. Do you know if they had to modify the frame to get that rear wheel in there?

I don't know but seriously doubt it. Knowing how they work if something doesn't fit they just try something else

Jeff

[TwinFins]

Thanks Jeff! I've always really liked the look of that car. It's too bad Forgiato discontinued those wheels. Do you know if they had to modify the frame to get that rear wheel in there?

They are still on the website, but I havent had any luck getting a reply for a quote

https://forgiato.com/wheels/flat-forging/fv3/

[Jacob McCrea]

For whatever it adds to the discussion, 19" RTR Tech 7s fill out the wheel wells nicely on a Gen 2.

IMG_20211201_201253003_HDR.jpg