Powertrain question

[Takis31gk]

Hey everyone, I'm in the process of planning out my MK4 build and am thinking of going with a EFI 427 and a Tremec transmission. Anyone else stuffed a 427 into their car and how difficult is it to do? What transmission & gears did you go with? Any and all help, advice & words of wisdom are greatly appreciated!
Thanks!

[edwardb]

Actual big block 427, or small block (e.g. 351) stroked to 427? Both fit and both are in a number of builds. Hard to beat the cool factor of an actual big block. But it is a tight fit and creates some interesting challenges to work on it. Just like the originals. You will get lots of passion and arguments on both sides of the small block/big block debate. One of the bigger questions is what do you plan to do with the car? Makes a difference. Probably the most common transmission to use for either would be a TKO600.

[Takis31gk]

Actual big block 427, or small block (e.g. 351) stroked to 427? Both fit and both are in a number of builds. Hard to beat the cool factor of an actual big block. But it is a tight fit and creates some interesting challenges to work on it. Just like the originals. You will get lots of passion and arguments on both sides of the small block/big block debate. One of the bigger questions is what do you plan to do with the car? Makes a difference. Probably the most common transmission to use for either would a TKO600.

I'm thinking of going with this 351 based 427 (http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/...M-6007-X427FRT) and this Edlebrock EFI system (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-35430). I plan on driving this car, and want a sleeper. Nothing fancy with the paint, or interior. I plan on painting it white, with a red interior, & black side pipes and roll bar. I want to be able to thrash on it and blow the doors off anything, but still be enjoyable to drive. Not sure if that EFI kit will fit the engine though and carbeurators are out of the question. I'm not too worried about having to custom make a lot of things or difficulty because I have my own shop, so no garage build for me. Basically I want to recapture what Mr. Shelby did by stuffing a big bad Detroit engine into a light sports car back in the 60's and just modernize it.

[68GT500MAN]

The deeper sound of a big block is great to the ears. They both will fit.

[CraigS]

I believe there is a significant weight advantage to going w/ the 351 based 427. I am not sure how the sound compares to the much loved sound of a FE 427. But I would lean toward the 351 based side and I also understand it will be less expensive. I would talk to the various efi people and go w/ you gut as far as what each tells you. But I would give a lot of extra credit to Wayne Presley at
http://www.verycoolparts.com/
If you read through the last many years on the other forum, you would find that Wayne is a super knowledgeable guy. I have read way too many threads about various efi system that are supposed to be plug and play but definitely are not. Talk to Wayne.

[Avalanche325]

FFR Roadster is about as far away from sleeper as you can get. A 427 and sidepipes in a car that is a legend, you won't be surprising anyone that it's fast.

That being said, small block based engines are perfect for these cars. It will handle better than a heavier big block.

TKO600 would be the most popular.

Gears - 3:27, 3:31, or 3:55. Anywhere in there would be good, if going with a TKO.

[CraigS]

Not to be argumentative, but w/ a 427, I'd be thinking 308 rear gear. Until 6 months ago I had a 308 in mine w/ 400hp 351 and it was a fine street gear. I went to a 331 over the winter and it's great, but I wouldn't want a 355.

[Mustang Man]

We have a 427W stroker in our build and my close friend with an FFR running a 347 stroker is always commenting on how much deeper and throatier the pipes are on ours compared to his (both 4-into-4 and FFR sidepipes). The 427W definitely has a big-block sound to it...

Mark

[QSL]

we are running the 427w ford racing crate engine with webers. We have a tko600 and 355 gears and gears are perfect for it. 1st is not too short. One thing is that the FF headers dont work with this engine. Its also very difficult to get to the drivers rear plugs. Everything else fit very easy.

[Takis31gk]

So after crunching some numbers the other night, it became apparent that my build is going to get quite expensive. I stopped counting after $50k. How much have you guys invested in your cars? I'm thinking of building it with an 87-93 donor and then going big and upgrading later down the road. What do you guys think?

[QSL]

Our budget started at 30k and we stopped counting after 40k. If I had to guess we are at about 60k. But you really need to keep one thing in mind. Your building your dream car. Build it how you have always dreamed. Whatever the cost to do that, make it happen. If you don't, you will regret it!

[QSL]

another thing... if you can get through the large purchases... IE engine block, trans, rear, KIT, the rest of those expenses become much easier to digest. You will be building for 1-2 years. You can buy all those bits and pieces during that time.

good luck!

[edwardb]

Yea, welcome to the madness of wants vs. budget. Costs are all over the map. Everyone is different. I've seen some nice looking donor builds in the $20's, and some north of $50-60K and higher. Both of mine are between those two. Huge (obvious) variations between donor and crate or custom motors, donor vs. new parts, paint jobs, tires/wheels, mods, etc. Yes, it's possible to start smaller with an 87-93 donor as you suggested, and go big and upgrade later. Just be careful about all the other incremental changes that could cause, e.g. headers, transmission/clutch, footboxes, etc. Those costs can add up too. I would recommend the beginning point has the same engine configuration as your upgraded plans. If you're thinking about a 427 stroker (e.g. 351 based) then get a simple 351 donor to start. That way, everything else will still fit when you upgrade. On the other hand, an 87-93 5.0 donor has lots of upside with 302 based strokers in the future. The newer 347 and 363 stokers are nearly ideal for these cars (good power, torque, light, fit easily, etc.) but not a true 427. But then neither is a small block based 427 if you're getting technical.

[cgundermann]

If you want a lighter tranny that doesn't shift like a tractor, JEG's is selling new G-Force T-5 transmissions that is rated to 600 foot pounds. I just ordered a 450 horse/347 stroker from the Engine Factory and the new upgraded G-Force T-5 and for added security, the upgraded exterior housing...

[CraigS]

To back down the $ some follow edwardb's idea. A basic 351 w/ an Edelbrock topend and mild cam is 400 hp. A TKO500 is fine and will be good for some more later. This is perfect w/ the 331 rear gear that comes w/ the complete kit. Other than the big $ engine the other big $ item is the body. But the mkIV is so much better than prior versions it will take less work. If you do some searching, you can get it done for $3500 or do it yourself. You just have to find a body shop that will treat it like it's a Miata and not like it's a high end show car. Heck, it's not a bad idea to drive it in the red gelcoat for a year. I have spent the last 5 years upgrading my MkII that was just barely driveable when I bought it. I love the upgrade process because I am driving it all the while. Working today and tomorrow on the fresh air system for the footboxes. And here is one other thought for you, buy one that is built or near built. While the older versions are great cars, today I wouldn't go for anything other than a mkIV. They have been out for 2 years now so some should be available.

[Takis31gk]

What do y'all think about 4.6's? SOHC, DOHC, 2V, 3v, 4v. Cobra or Mach 1. Anyone run any of these? How do you like them? I have a 3v 4.6 in my mountaineer and I like it, sucks on gas, but it's peppy!

[MTSCustoms]

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/na...FY6k4AodTEsADA

;-)

[Takis31gk]

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/na...FY6k4AodTEsADA

;-)

Oh God! My eyes, they burn!!!!!!!! ;-)

[MTSCustoms]

Oh God! My eyes, they burn!!!!!!!! ;-)

The bang for the buck is unbeatable though. I went LS1 in mine and its a great powerplant for these cars. A little extra wiring/work to get it in there but well worth the MPG and efficiency

[SoCalMike]

If youre looking down that style of road, go with the 5.0 coyote, better power, torque and milage than the LS1, and will out rev it as well. Plus it is a FORD.

[Boz1911]

Our budget started at 30k and we stopped counting after 40k. If I had to guess we are at about 60k. But you really need to keep one thing in mind. Your building your dream car. Build it how you have always dreamed. Whatever the cost to do that, make it happen. If you don't, you will regret it!

Never a more accurate statement..........

[Avalanche325]

I originally started with the idea of doing a donor and a $30k budget. There is nothing wrong with that. You would be much more likely to be able to do it with a 4.6 than a Windsor 5.0. Fox Mustangs are either expensive or worn out, often both.

ALWAYS stay within what you can afford. We would all hate to see you sell a partial project (at a loss) because it got too big.

My original budget was not a what I can afford number, but just a target, so I was able to push it up. The donor idea went out the window, and I am building it the way I really want. But it is $40K+. That is with me doing my own body and paint. God help me if I ever count up all the extra nuts, bolts, adhiesives,etc. A brand new engine gets very expensive when you have to add every nut, bolt, bracket, alternator, water pump, hose, sensor, etc. I think that is where a donor pays off.

Engine type is a big decision and you are doing the right thing by putting thought and research in now.

To add one thing....the research is part of the fun.

[MTSCustoms]

If youre looking down that style of road, go with the 5.0 coyote, better power, torque and milage than the LS1, and will out rev it as well. Plus it is a FORD.

The link I posted is an LS3, with 480HP, and costs $1500 less than youre beloved coyote motor. Naturally, a larger engine(6.2L v 5.0L) will make more torque, and LS engines are renowned for getting exceptional gas mileage. Even a 505HP Z06 Vette gets almost 30mpg on the higway.

And, last time I checked, these cars are manufactured by Factory Five Racing, not FORD. ;-)

[Takis31gk]

Now I have to ask you guys; if you were to build a car that could smoke a Ferrari, would you build a Type-65 coupe or a MK4?

[68GT500MAN]

Since I already have a roadster (MKII) I would build a coupe.
Doug

[CraigS]

I love the coupe but how big a guy are you? They are a lot of work to get in and out of for anyone over maybe 5'11". Also AC is nearly a necessity due to the lack of ventilation.

[UpstateCobraGuy]

So after crunching some numbers the other night, it became apparent that my build is going to get quite expensive. I stopped counting after $50k. How much have you guys invested in your cars? I'm thinking of building it with an 87-93 donor and then going big and upgrading later down the road. What do you guys think?

Another dream hits the brakes!

It all comes down to choices, a stroked 351 (427w) sounds awesome but now you need a more expensive transmission, aftermarket EFI looks great but cost $$$. I followed the KISS principle and brought in my build in at 32K. A guy asked me at car show once, What was the hardest part of your build? The answer is simple, choices and the changes you have to make because of them. Anybody can throw money at it. Personally, I would not waste my time with a Fox donor. You really don't get that much useable parts. IMHO it's better to buy the complete kit and pick your engine/transmission/rearend/wheels & tire from different sources. If you look around, you can find killer deals out there. (hint: I have an Explorer motor F/S in the classifieds )



As my Roadster sit right now. My next "dream" upgrade will be a Paxton S/C to get a little more HP.

HIH,

Pat

[Takis31gk]

I love the coupe but how big a guy are you? They are a lot of work to get in and out of for anyone over maybe 5'11". Also AC is nearly a necessity due to the lack of ventilation.

I'm a shade over 6'4". I love both designs and advantages to them, but cant seem to decide.

[Takis31gk]

What do you guys think of using a wrecked '04 Mach 1 with 70k miles as a power train donor? The 320HP & 320lb-ft TQ should be ample for a 2200lb car. Anyone have experience using these or something similar? I may be able to get my hands on one for a good deal.

[DaleG]

another thing... if you can get through the large purchases... IE engine block, trans, rear, KIT, the rest of those expenses become much easier to digest. You will be building for 1-2 years. You can buy all those bits and pieces during that time.

good luck!

Keep on mind that a lot of the "bits and pieces" can be located in the Classifieds on this and other forums.

[DaleG]

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/na...FY6k4AodTEsADA

;-)

Get a rope!...and use that thing for a boat anchor. It is a nice-looking motor, though.

[3yearplan]

That is the exact motor/trans combo I am using. If you can get it for a decent price it may be a good option for you. It doesn't change the build that much from a SBF build, different headers, footbox aluminum, motor mounts. But no big deal because you specify what engine you have when ordering. I am not as far along in my build as I would like so I can't say how this combo actually works on the street, but I don't think I will be disappointed, at least I hope not

Mike

[CraigS]

The Mach I will be fine as long as you have a reasonable understanding of efi. One the other forum I think there is a sub forum for mod motor builds so I would look there if I were you. All the mod motors are quite wide so they are a tight fit but they do work. There have been quite a few mod motor builds so I think that the accumulated knowledge is to the point where you won't be a pioneer. OTOH, personally I don't like the look even though I do like the way the modern motors run.