H6-EZ30 engine in the 818----IT FITS

[Wayne Presley]

Engine management??

I can set you up with an Electromotive TEC-GT, MS3Pro or any other ECU that you want (AEM, FAST, Haltech, etc.).

For those already building with an aftermarket body harness, why not go for standalone engine management?


Wayne of Very Cool Parts (a forum sponsor and LONG time FFR builder) sells the TEC systems plus there are outside solutions like Motec or Link to name a few. It's no biggie.

How much ground clearance under the stock oil pan?

The stock oil pan is approximately the same height as the 2.5L

would this be a good deal / fit?

http://oklahomacity.craigslist.org/pts/3916320729.html

its local to me

No

[Ironhydroxide]

this tells me that with a little modification to the fuel cell, one CAN fit the EG33.....

[Wayne Presley]

this tells me that with a little modification to the fuel cell, one CAN fit the EG33.....

Uh, no. the frame was .300" from the motor and the fuel tank is 2" in front of that.

[tirod]

Somebody with some serious fab and welding skills could do it. Likely Wayne will post up the complete transplant a week after somebody sends him a free engine. <--- HINT

After that will be the Ford Ecoboost V6. The Miata guys are looking into that, about 28" from front to back. 400hp.

Just pouring fuel on the fire. : )

Oh, wait, it goes in sideways, hmm. Make that 12.5" from centerline of the crank to the outside of the valve cover. Should be room for the turbo. I guess we need to know what the CV shaft centerline to the "front" of the motor is. That tells all.

[flynntuna]

So what would be the most effective way to modify the frame? Perhaps cutting out the X bracing and replacing it with plate steel? Or moving the motor mounts back an inch? Any ideas?

[Silvertop]

So what would be the most effective way to modify the frame? Perhaps cutting out the X bracing and replacing it with plate steel? Or moving the motor mounts back an inch? Any ideas?

I'm just speculating -- and I'm no automotive engineer. By my guess would that it would be more desirable to move the motor mounts back an inch or so. No compromise to the frame strength, and it seems to me that the operational geometry ( I like to use fancy words when I don't know what I'm talking about) would tolerate the slight change in angle of the half-shafts..... But I know nothing.............

[Wayne Presley]

So what would be the most effective way to modify the frame? Perhaps cutting out the X bracing and replacing it with plate steel? Or moving the motor mounts back an inch? Any ideas?

The EG 33 is a no go in my opinion. The EZ30 will fit with just a minor tweak.

I'm just speculating -- and I'm no automotive engineer. By my guess would that it would be more desirable to move the motor mounts back an inch or so. No compromise to the frame strength, and it seems to me that the operational geometry ( I like to use fancy words when I don't know what I'm talking about) would tolerate the slight change in angle of the half-shafts..... But I know nothing.............

The half shafts already are rearward of centerline of the outer CV, you shouldn't move them much farther rearward.

[Ironhydroxide]

Uh, no. the frame was .300" from the motor and the fuel tank is 2" in front of that.

YES, but one can modify... sorry if I didn't mention modifying the frame.

And the EG33 isnt' THAT much bigger than the EZ30D I'm not sure which thread I posted it in, but i have comparison pictures of crank lengths of the EG33, ez30D and EJ20(5)

[Xusia]

NOT trying to stir anything up; just trying to understand... Given the relative ease with with which the EZ series motors will fit, what is the appeal of an EG? A stock EZ36 produces more HP than a stock EG33.

[skullandbones]

NOT trying to stir anything up; just trying to understand... Given the relative ease with with which the EZ series motors will fit, what is the appeal of an EG? A stock EZ36 produces more HP than a stock EG33.

I was searching for info on that engine and a couple of sites mentioned that is was quite a bit cheaper than the EZ series. One account stated that a front half of whatever model the engine came in was sold for 2K. Don't know how true that is. Just saw it while I was checking out the different hits.

[Ironhydroxide]

NOT trying to stir anything up; just trying to understand... Given the relative ease with with which the EZ series motors will fit, what is the appeal of an EG? A stock EZ36 produces more HP than a stock EG33.

Personally i like the EG33 MUCH better than i do the EZ30. It's easier, cheaper, stronger, better.
Theres a company here local called "metric Motors Extreme" who builds Subaru engines specifically for "off road use" or for Sandrails. they make and sell an EG33 with a midsize turbo. advertized 600BHP on a built bottom end. BUT the real kicker is, they get 400hp advertized on "low mileage blocks" (unbuilt, unrebuilt, stock engines) Check the bottom of this page http://metricmotorsxtreme.com/engines.html#33600

The where the EG33 and the EZ30 differ:

Rod/crank bearing thicknesses. The EG33 is roughly 130% of the EZ30.

Valve Timing drivetrain. The EG33 is a belt that drives the exhast cams, the intake cams are driven from helical gears off the exhaust cam. EZ30 is Full Cam chain (2 of them iirc).

price. An EG33 can be had for around $600 if one takes the time to look. and for $2000 if you want an entire car with it. EZ30 is roughly $1500 for engine alone (depending on source)

Swapability. EG33 ecu can be isolated quite simply from the rest of the harness in comparison to the EZ30, ez30 has MANY more security issues, especially the VDC versions (vehicle Dynamic Control)

Heads. Ez30 is a single port exhaust for ALL 3 cylinders (6 valves), EG33 is a triple port design, 2 valves (one cylinder) per port.

[Wayne Presley]

Only the early EZ30's have the single exhaust port, the later ones have 3 ports and AVCS.

[Frank818]

Only the early EZ30's have the single exhaust port, the later ones have 3 ports and AVCS.

Correct. The EZ30D has single port and no AVSC/AVLS and the EZ30R has 3 ports + AVSC/AVLS.

[Desertrunner]

From previous discussions, it appears the EG33 is at least 2-3" longer than the EZ30R Wayne installed - with the EZ30 having only 0.300" clearance, the EG33 will likely require major work to make it fit. The EZ30R also comes from the factory with about 30HP more on tap to start.

From my experiance the EG33 is more powerfull off the shelf then the EZ30R but I could be wrong. Also if you are thinking of sticking a turbo on the EG33 is far stronger.
Tony

[Frank818]

Personally i like the EG33 MUCH better than i do the EZ30. It's easier, cheaper, stronger, better.
Theres a company here local called "metric Motors Extreme" who builds Subaru engines specifically for "off road use" or for Sandrails. they make and sell an EG33 with a midsize turbo. advertized 600BHP on a built bottom end. BUT the real kicker is, they get 400hp advertized on "low mileage blocks" (unbuilt, unrebuilt, stock engines) Check the bottom of this page http://metricmotorsxtreme.com/engines.html#33600

Do they offer street versions with less power and no race fuel?
Like 350-400whp range or something.

[Turboguy]

From my experiance the EG33 is more powerfull off the shelf then the EZ30R but I could be wrong. Also if you are thinking of sticking a turbo on the EG33 is far stronger.
Tony

Unfortunately, you are not correct. The EZ30 has more HP and torque out of the box than the EG33. Perrin turbocharged and built an EZ30R up to 600HP a few years back with stock bearings & crank, so your point about the EG33 being "stronger" would also seem to be incorrect, or at least "not applicable" for the 99.5% of people who are fine with less than 600HP

And the EG33 isnt' THAT much bigger than the EZ30D

I recall a difference of almost 3" -- and when you only have 0.300" to work with -and a frame and gas tank in the way- 3" is like having to go to the moon and back just to get milk.

Personally i like the EG33 MUCH better than i do the EZ30. It's easier, cheaper, stronger, better.

An EG33 can be had for around $600 if one takes the time to look...............EZ30 is roughly $1500 for engine alone

Theres a company here local called "metric Motors Extreme" who builds Subaru engines specifically for "off road use" or for Sandrails. they make and sell an EG33 with a midsize turbo. advertized 600BHP on a built bottom end.

Why don't you go price those motors out, and then come back and tell us how "affordable" the EG33 is?

Seriously, it's a little ridiculous talking about how cheap the EG33 solution is -quoting $600 for a worn out 20 year old used engine- and then throwing a 600HP spec out there from a fully built $17,300 RACE MOTOR.

By the time you price in a full rebuild that your 20 year old EG33 will require, it will ALSO be more expensive than a $1,500 low-mileage pull EZ30R. And that is BEFORE factoring in the costs to re-engineer and modify the 818 chassis and fuel cell to accept an EG33.





Personally, I think there's enough info out there that it's time to let the EG33 discussion just die. It just doesn't seem to make sense on any level to me.

The crowd looking at a flat-6 powered 818 should be thankful for the EZ30 solution, and buy Wayne a (or 2 or 3) for helping those of us who are considering a flat-6 IMMENSELY by doing this trial fit. Again a HUGE thank-you Wayne for taking the time to do this, and let us all in on the results.

[Frank818]

About the EZ36D, I read on Wikipedia that "The offset connecting rod was designed to allow additional displacement from the same exterior dimensions." Does that mean the exterior dimensions of the EZ36D are the same as the EZ30? Or same as EG33? (which are a bit bigger than EZ30, right?)

[Turboguy]

Yes, the EZ30 and EZ36 have the same external dimensions - this is because of the offset connecting rod technology they employ, allowing 20% more displacement out of the same block casting. For a totally stock installation that will not see insane RPM levels, the EZ36 might be a great 818 solution for some. However, I don't know that I would try to run the offset connecting rod technology to 8,000RPM.

Frank- the EG33 is not just "a bit bigger" than the EZ30R it is a "lot" bigger. The EZ30R is essentially a flat-6 engine that fits in the same space as Subaru's EJ-series 4 cylinder turbo motors (which power the STi and WRX).

After that will be the Ford Ecoboost V6. The Miata guys are looking into that, about 28" from front to back. 400hp.

Just pouring fuel on the fire. : )

The big selling point for most people looking seriously at using the Subaru flat-6 motors being discussed here is to get that exotic "Porsche" flat-6 sound.


Putting in a garden variety 'merican motor certainly isn't going to cut it for them. Builders just looking for lots of HP and TQ would be far better off sticking with Subaru's EJ25 series turbo motors - they will eat ford's ecocrap for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. They're also cheap, easily modified, and have HUGE aftermarket support.

[Frank818]

Yes, the EZ30 and EZ36 have the same external dimensions - this is because of the offset connecting rod technology they employ, allowing 20% more displacement out of the same block casting. For a totally stock installation that will not see insane RPM levels, the EZ36 might be a great 818 solution for some. However, I don't know that I would try to run the offset connecting rod technology to 8,000RPM.

So one could think there are great chances the EZ36 physically fits the engine bay. Now I don't know the engine enough to tell if the other parts (axles, diff, tranny, hoses, etc.) will fit without too many tweaks or not...

Not sure I'd go with an EZ36, but I like the idea to know the options so I can be happy and proud to make the best choice for my needs. I have to take into account the sound, as this is really important to me. Building a 30-35k kit and having an excellent sound that I'd be happy about but would know I could have had better is one thing. Building a 35-40k kit with a super awesome sound throughout the rpm band and at idle that I'd be crazy about all the time knowing it's amongst the best I can get, that is another thing.

[Turboguy]

If the EZ30R fits, I cannot imagine the EZ36D NOT fitting. Any issues would most likely surround ancillaries mounted on the engine. Tranny, and therefore diff & axle issues too, would be the same as faced with the EZ30R - bolt up to a Subaru EJ-series WRX or STi tranny (although the STi tranny is an unconfirmed fit in the 818 application as of now) and you are good to go!


If you would have fun at $30-35K Frank, then you'll be through the roof when I say that you could build an 818 with THIS flat-6 engine and aftermarket engine management for under $25K. Wrap-it instead of painting it and you could even be less than that!

[Frank818]

Are you saying the EZ36D is usually cheaper than the EZ30R?

[tirod]

Putting in a garden variety 'merican motor certainly isn't going to cut it for them. Builders just looking for lots of HP and TQ would be far better off sticking with Subaru's EJ25 series turbo motors - they will eat ford's ecocrap for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. They're also cheap, easily modified, and have HUGE aftermarket support.

Hmm. 400hp stock vs 300. Both are aluminum block OHC with turbos - yep, garden variety these days. Fords got their F150's with them and still going strong, the 2015 CAFE standards will push production even more.

The future of finding Ecoboost in over 60% of new Ford truck in the wrecking yard means that cheap will be possible. Easy mods are up to the aftermarket in either case, JDI, etc aren't here on this turf with much advertising. The West Coast hipo makers aren't going to die off with the baby boomers, they need something like this to move forward. Subaru isn't where they have much presence.

If GM would drop two cylinders off the LS same as they did with the 4.3, which needs replacing, then we have another. And Dodge can do the same with the Hemi, drop two cylinders, keep the name. Put them in two door sedans and the streets are going to be a bit cluttered with turbo V6 aluminum block overhead cam hot rods with 400hp. I like my Forester, but really - it's a ecobrand for nerds (I are one.)

Let's not forget - F5 built a separate chassis for the Subaru, but any of these turbosixes will drop into a Roadster, Coupe, or Spyder. 400hp is 400hp, you get a stock reliable motor, not an overworked 5.0 stroker.

An 818 with a 400hp stock Ecoboost would run about 5 pounds per hp. The Subie is 6#/hp. Who needs the aftermarket when you have a clear advantage?

Maybe I'm saving up for the wrong kit.

[Xusia]

Hey guys, this is exactly the kind of crud I DIDN'T want to stir up. Everyone's goals, desires, and preferences are different. FFR will most likely do with the 818 what they have done on other kits: Offer the customer options, specifically engine options. That way each can get what THEY want.

In summary, to each his own. Now can we please stop the "which engine is better" debate? Thanks!

[Frank818]

To me what matters is "which engines will fit without mods" and "which engines will fit with minor tweaks/different parts". Once I'll know these 2 lists, I'll dig around trying to understand which one is better for which type of application (high rev, strength, low end torque, etc.) and I'll make my choice. But that only depends on me, like you're saying.

[PhyrraM]

Mechanically stock EZ36
Affordable aftermarket ECU - tuned to about 270-300 HP (91-93 octane, up from OEM 87) with a OEMish (aka. "flat as Kansas") torque curve (or flashed Euro manual tranny ECU)
Newer 5 speed w/3.9 ring and pinion (swap a FWD 3.7 R&P if you want to open the box)

[Wayne Presley]

I'll let you know how it runs after I get the GRM guys finished. Might post a video...

[Frank818]

Yeah definitely interesting to know how it runs.
And how it sounds, for the most of it.

Just make sure you don't need to remove the cam bolts, hey? lolll :P

[Cj_]

EZ30 Turbo? I dont think you can beat that sound!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkKucEGay3c

[Frank818]

Wow!!!! And there are more on the tube of that same car.

Here's the project: http://www.pulseracing.com.au/TwinTurboH6Liberty.htm

They are in Australia though... I wonder if SilverTop (he's the one in NZ right?) will take a look at this.

[Silvertop]

Wow!!!! And there are more on the tube of that same car.

Here's the project: http://www.pulseracing.com.au/TwinTurboH6Liberty.htm

They are in Australia though... I wonder if SilverTop (he's the one in NZ right?) will take a look at this.

No, I'm in Minnesota. You're thinking of Flamshackle. He's in NZ.

[Frank818]

No, I'm in Minnesota. You're thinking of Flamshackle. He's in NZ.

Yeah you 2 have an almost identical avatar.
Sorry for mixing MN and NZ! lolll

[tirod]

Hey guys, this is exactly the kind of crud I DIDN'T want to stir up. Everyone's goals, desires, and preferences are different. FFR will most likely do with the 818 what they have done on other kits: Offer the customer options, specifically engine options. That way each can get what THEY want.

In summary, to each his own. Now can we please stop the "which engine is better" debate? Thanks!

Yes, I have no doubt F5 has some stuff on the bulletin board about other potential engines. It's part and parcel of the kit industry to respond to customer demands. Like, using the Chevy LS motor. Plenty of posts on that. Not on topic.

But, really, asking for guys to not debate the various merits of engine design? Buahahaha. It's tied into our endicrinological conditioning, so to speak. We already have that here, if a 4 is good, a 6 is better, and a big 6, even better yet.

Anybody know of a cheap W8 we could use? No?

An important point tho - what transmission are we talking about? Playing motor roulette is fun, but we don't have fun with CV's flailing around and 80-90 dripping from a large chunk of what's left on the mounts. Do these motors all use the same transmission? I'm new at owning a Subaru, what transmissions fit what motors fit what horsepower levels?

I've blown up more than my share of little three speeds in the day. I'm not wanting to go thru that learning curve again.

[Silvertop]

Yeah you 2 have an almost identical avatar.
Sorry for mixing MN and NZ! lolll

No Worries, Mate! (just to confuse the issue).

[StatGSR]

Do these motors all use the same transmission? I'm new at owning a Subaru, what transmissions fit what motors fit what horsepower levels?

The reason we are talking specifically about the Subaru EZ30, EZ36, and EG33 H6s are because each one bolts up to an EJ2X transmission and uses the same or similarly placed motor mounts as the EJ2X. So when your start throwing out ideas like W8s, LSX, V6ecoboost, its easy to ignore, because they are not even in remotely the same category of difficulty we are talking about with the Subaru H6s.

[Flamshackle]

Wow!!!! And there are more on the tube of that same car.

Here's the project: http://www.pulseracing.com.au/TwinTurboH6Liberty.htm

They are in Australia though... I wonder if SilverTop (he's the one in NZ right?) will take a look at this.

I will be sticking with the JDM 2.0 when the time comes.

[Frank818]

I will be sticking with the JDM 2.0 when the time comes.

That's pretty good too, what are your reasons?
Curious to see what would drive someone to prefer the 2.0 over the 3.0. $$ probably, but what else.

[StatGSR]

Because it is going to be significantly cheaper and easier to make more power with the 2.0 and I can't bad mouth the the 8000 rpm redline of the jdm 2.0 either, should be a very fun motor for the 818.

I think the h6s are great... until you want to modify them...

[Xusia]

In my opinion, the main reason to choose an H6 is the sound and lack of turbo componentry and associated hassles. If power is your goal, the turbo H4's are are definitely better suited to that task.

EDIT: I forgot to mention the smooth, linear throttle response and flat torque curve!

[Flamshackle]

That's pretty good too, what are your reasons?
Curious to see what would drive someone to prefer the 2.0 over the 3.0. $$ probably, but what else.

Higher revving suits a lighter car, more than ample power potential, JDM 2.0 is std issue in New Zealand.

[Flamshackle]

In my opinion, the main reason to choose an H6 is the sound and lack of turbo componentry and associated hassles. If power is your goal, the turbo H4's are are definitely better suited to that task.

Agreed. Oh and for INSANE HP builds.