Complete Details of FFR-GRM Design Competition

[Mad Dog]

Sorry it took so long guys. Our post is up along with Grassroots Motorsports entry page.

Here's the link on our page with more details on the contest.

We may add another chassis-CAD file, but for now, the downloadable templates are a simple guide to use in designing the body. Keep in mind, you must enter by submitting your designs in the correct format (PDF or JPEG) to Grassroots Motorsports at [email protected]. We will have a submissions gallery as the competition proceeds.

[Rotr8]

Question. Must submissions be in those 3 views only or are those templates optional as far as views, angles etc?
And also can additional artwork be submitted as long as the criteria(specs) is met(the 3 views), for instance a different view that would highlight details of the design?

[Mintun]

Yes, we need the chassis CAD file please! No designer ever created a body for a car without knowing what they were covering! Even if the chassis is still a work in progress, that's fine. Soon please.

[Dave Smith]

We might be able to put some landmark add-ons to the templates (bumper heights, rear deck min etc), but for right now the full-on CAD files are not going to be released, it's just simply too early in the work despite the fact that the guys are building the go-kart right now. Also, the body shapes that guys come up with MAY drive changes to the chassis and we dont want to curtail design work that can be adopted. This is a tough chicken-egg thingy. The iportant factor is to know that FFR will never design a car without a competent (in this case full tubular steel space-frame) chassis.

More to come..

Dave Smith

[Cooluser23]

Yes, we need the chassis CAD file please! No designer ever created a body for a car without knowing what they were covering! Even if the chassis is still a work in progress, that's fine. Soon please.

+1. No car has ever been designed without at least rough parameters.

Also, contact car design blogs. Nobody reads Grassroots motorsports, who is a car designer.

Contact car blogs: Jalopnik, Autoblog, TruthAboutCars, Fourtitude, etc. for more publicity.
Don't forget news aggregators: Reddit.com, Digg.com, Slashdot.com, and similar.

For best coverage: write to Top Gear and suggest it for their weekly news segment. That will get international coverage.

[Dave Smith]

Thanks for the advice... all very good. We had wanted to get the mechanics of the site and contest functioning first before doing press releases (probably tomorrow or the next day) on the design contest. One more detail on the chassis, more clear instructions (like submit ANY drawing, you dont have to do three images), and introducing the judges remains...

Dave Smith

[thebeerbaron]

We might be able to put some landmark add-ons to the templates (bumper heights, rear deck min etc), but for right now the full-on CAD files are not going to be released, it's just simply too early in the work despite the fact that the guys are building the go-kart right now. Also, the body shapes that guys come up with MAY drive changes to the chassis and we dont want to curtail design work that can be adopted. This is a tough chicken-egg thingy. The iportant factor is to know that FFR will never design a car without a competent (in this case full tubular steel space-frame) chassis.

I've said this over on my blog, but I'll say it here for posterity. I'm actually starting to like the lack of direction given. Knowing that these designs will serve as inspiration for the final body rather than going straight to production makes it easier to not worry about the chassis and get right down to the expressiveness of the design. I think landmarks would be helpful, but I can't promise I'll stick to them exactly. And no, I don't need CAD files!

[thebeerbaron]

For best coverage: write to Top Gear and suggest it for their weekly news segment. That will get international coverage.

Sorry, the last episode of this series aired on Sunday. The next episodes will come out probably in June, too late to announce the competition. Excellent idea though!

Hey Dave, how hard can it be to get one of these across the pond for a Power Lap?

[Mintun]

Thanks Dave. I applaud your keeping the contest loose in order to maximize creativity. I am sure the result will be a big splash at SEMA!
It would be enough to just know the "hard points" such as deck height, rear tranny overhang, etc. We also need to know if the Subie style strut suspension is used or A-arms.

[ClemsonS197]

We might be able to put some landmark add-ons to the templates More to come..

Dave Smith

Since you've decided on a Subaru drivetrain, can you place the outline of a motor in the chassis on the side and plan views so we know the constraints of the cabin location?

[Dave Smith]

Guys,

I think a cross-section with engine/trans and seating is reasonable. We have had extensive debate over the question of how much detail to add. We don't want to constrain design freedom and ideas. For example, we are planning on using the Subaru radiator (planning!). We have scanned it and are assuming it will be an important way to reduce the cost of building the car. Also the radiator is matched OEM to the engine etc. Those are the reasons to use the subie rad... BUT what if someone comes up with a rockin cool twin rear duct style body shape. We might want to change the design to use that cool feature/look. I guess the point is that we dont want to constrain creativity. Chassis details (small as opposed to wheelbase, track etc) can be changed where there is a good enough reason. We use CAD and make everything on the screeen first anyway, so sometimes mods are easier than you might think, so the decision to either provide all the details and hurt design freedom was balanced against the value of having final drawings which are the actual, down to the tenth car body... we decided to lean towards more open design paramenters. Hope that explains it.

Plus, the judges we have assembled are from ALL different walks of professional life. Our goal was to pick the most exciting, inspiring, and cool designs... then the hard work is set forth for the engineers to bring that to life. By setting the wheelbase, two-seater, mid-engine specs, we really have already added some tremndous constraints. I think and engine, seating cross-section is a good idea to add.

Dave Smith

[D2W]

Dave, I would like to see some height dimensions for the front and rear suspensions. If I make a low hood/rear deck design that is lower than the suspension it may ruin the design to make it fit. Although a lot of the chassis can be easily changed, I'm guessing suspension design probably isn't going to be changed much.
DP

[subyrod]

Instead of power lap, this may fall under the "reasonably priced car". LOL

I think me and my boy (8 years old) who likes to draw are going to submit designs. It'll be a fun father/son project (all 4 boys might wanna join in). Then in a couple years maybe we can build our design.

We can dream right?!

[Rotr8]

I've said this over on my blog, but I'll say it here for posterity. I'm actually starting to like the lack of direction given. Knowing that these designs will serve as inspiration for the final body rather than going straight to production makes it easier to not worry about the chassis and get right down to the expressiveness of the design. I think landmarks would be helpful, but I can't promise I'll stick to them exactly. And no, I don't need CAD files!

+1000

[Doc_FFR]

Be sure to add "wookiee friendly" to the design requirements.

[Sergio]

Dave,

can we know what year WRX donor your engineers are using to mock up the frame?

thanks

[BrandonDrums]

From 02-07, the USDM WRX's have essentially identical running gear. Hardily anything really changed for 08+ as well that would impact this kit (assuming similar donor parts list to other FFR models). I doubt there will be a specific year WRX they are shooting for, I bet they will all work in one way or another.

Of course, I'm not Dave though.

Comments from the FFR team?

Dave,

can we know what year WRX donor your engineers are using to mock up the frame?

thanks

[Dave Smith]

Sorry guys, drowning over here in work from being out for a week... Answers

The car was a 45K mile 2006 WRX that we bought for $5,500 or $6,500.

I am adding another template to the design competition (it should be on the GRM site page today later) that is a simple side view with engine/driver-cockpit placement. Front and rear suspensions are very low and its safe to say that the hood line can be anywhere (thats ONE of the cool things about the mid-engine design is the low capable nose).

We will have the submissions gallery up on this site so that people can follow submissions and see what others have done. Please forgive the rusha and delays in answers as I get back to my feet here.


Dave

[Rotr8]

IMHO its a shame you actually had to do this, due to alot of whinney posts, even after stating that if the design is good enough you would adapt the hardpoints, suspension geometry etc, because I know probably 80% the people that whinned about it have never put pen to paper in the first place.
Thanks Dave for all the info even if you did give us a blank canvas to begin with in the first place. Looking forward to seeing others submissions and ideations.

[Dave Smith]

No worries. I dont take the criticism too hard... I mean we are basically giving away $6500 in prize money, its a fun contest, and no-one is being forced to participate. The community of FFR guys and GRM racers is pretty hard-core and frankly alot of the comments are pretty good. Still, we;ll see where it goes as we are about to put out a press release and the wider world will become aware. It's hard to be anything but excited about the project. You can pm me with anything.

Dave

[Olimk2]

Good point here! Thanks for adding basic datas, it will help avoid mistakes...On my part i prefer finalise an accurate design even it's not totaly adopted, good proportions/balance are important and i don't wan't the shape distorted to "fit".

P.S Ballpoint pen is glowing at the moment...lol

[Olimk2]

So i've seen the new template on GRM, see the driver a bit "upright" in his position, and what is the shape at the rear? Too high to be the gearbox right?
What do you think?

[Vman7]

Debating if I am going to do a design or not.........hmm

[subyrod]

Do it! WHy wouldn't you? IF you can design, lets see it! Don't hide your talents! haha

[Arch]

I can't design and I can't draw but it is a ton of fun to follow along and see what others are saying and doing. Thanks Dave for making this public.
Arch

[Jon A]

I can't design and I can't draw but it is a ton of fun to follow along and see what others are saying and doing. Thanks Dave for making this public.
Arch

I agree 100%. I feel like a 7 year old drawing cars (badly) on a piece of paper with a #2 pencil. Funny, when I was 7 I thought I was the best car artist known to man.... at 38 I now know that I am ridiculously bad at drawing anything. Chip Foose I am not. Great project! I doubt it is in the cards for me in the near term (unless I sell my Mk III and I don't see myself doing that). For now, I will just have to live/build vicariously through others. Keep the drawings (good and bad alike) coming, they are a ton of fun.

-Jon A.

[99 Sebring Z28]

Dave, one question about the profile template that shows the driver. What does the line running from the driver's waist to the top of the front wheels represent?

[Vman7]

Is anybody else having trouble getting through to the grassroots website to download the drawings?

[Dave Smith]

The line is not significant as far as i know. I cannot get on GRM site all day now...

Dave Smith

[thebeerbaron]

Dave, I have some of the templates, but can't attach them here or to my blog for some reason (probably too big). If I can get them hosted, would that be OK with you? I think I have one each of the side and top, plus the driver.

edit: GRM is back.

[slopoke]

can't seem to get on GRM's site to get the new template ... it just keeps timing out

[slopoke]

not to sound like a whiner, but could all the templates be the same scale? 1/16th?

[Olimk2]

I found the same on the side view with driver, 1/16...
Still no entrants gallery?

[kach22i]

I have a $300 Brother color printer MFC-6490CW which can print (and scan) 11"x17"'s. The drawings came out to scale for me (Ledger Size). You may want to take your PDF's to a local printer, put them on a flash drive or something.

I see that someone used the top view sheet to do their front and rear views. Everything's on it's side but it works.

[Stavros]

I see that someone used the top view sheet to do their front and rear views. Everything's on it's side but it works.

That's what I ended up doing too. I figured a front and rear shot have more value than a top view anyways. Who really gets a few stories above a car to check out it's design features anyways?

[kach22i]

That's what I ended up doing too. I figured a front and rear shot have more value than a top view anyways. Who really gets a few stories above a car to check out it's design features anyways?

You are the one person I assumed would just go the extra mile and do both. Plus you can take the time to cut & paste and rotate those views 90 degrees, right? Then no one would get a twisted neck trying to view them.

The top view may be important in a car which sits about four feet high.

About five years ago for kicks I developed in clay my own mid-engined dream car. Being non-drying clay I was able to change it a dozen times. I did not end up where I started, nothing beats real clay for tactile development in my opinion. Maybe it's my personal bias, and a statement of my old school skills but it's "the way I roll" to quote a crazy guy named Charlie.

[Colvindesign]

A side view of the chassis would be much more useful.

[Colvindesign]

Also, a single thread with all of the design elements (such as the lower control arm CAD image) would be very useful as well.

[spdnman]

Where did the name "818" originate from?

[PhyrraM]

Where did the name "818" originate from?

818 Kilograms = 1800 pounds = The target weight of the completed car.