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Last edited by metalmaker12; 08-19-2014 at 10:53 AM.
818S frame #13 Jdm version 8 ej207
one on the right side, less than 7 feet of 2.5 inch pipe, you could do it with 2.0 pipe too, might end up with better clearance in places too. See my thread for photos and details. Hopefully I'll have it installed this week... I needed some aluminum welding and I have to ask a friend for that service...
Dan
818S #17 Picked up 8/1/13 First start 11/1/13 Go Kart 3/28/14
G, metal, you definitely thought of everything humanly possible to cool down that engine. lolll
Frank
818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
Build Completed Winter 2021
Frank
818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
Build Completed Winter 2021
Hey Metalmaker, is your shortblock salvageable? If not, I have a used '02 wrx block in good shape for a rebuild for sale. Not a JDM but the shortblock is pretty much the same. I'll let it go for cheap, no one on NASIOC wants a 2.0L anymore.
image.jpg
Motors getting some machine love and the bottom will be fully built. The heads will be rebuilt with a haircut but stock trim with a mild port to just clean the ruff casting.
In the meantime I have ordered plx touch screen gauge for a/f, egt and iat. I also got stri 60mm oil pressure to match my boost gauge. I will be installing them in my dash. I also ordered Wayne's awic, a Blouch 1.5 xtr twinscroll turbo and these injectors. I will be good for 500 plus, but will be tuning it for 300-330whp with a sick powerband and reliability.
Last edited by metalmaker12; 08-26-2014 at 08:02 PM.
818S frame #13 Jdm version 8 ej207
Here's a comparison of air to air intercooler to air to water
Air to Air with two 10" fans sitting on top of the intercooler
Air to water low speed fan 3 feet in front of heat exchanger.
Data log starts at 1.7 seconds at intake air temp of 97 F@2650 RPM
Data log ends at 8.7 seconds at intake air temp of 106 F@6100RPM
9°F increase in 7 seconds
Both engines made 240 RWHP
Wayne Presley www.verycoolparts.com
Xterminator 705 RWHP supercharged 4.6 DOHC with twin turbos
Was that an oem TMIC? What was ambient air/water in the tank temp?
A well stocked beverage fridge is the key to any successful project.
That was a stock 07 air to air TMIC on an 07 WRX. The water in the tank had 7 pulls on it and water temp was 96 degrees. Ambient temp was 92-96.
On the air to air, can you imaging the intake air temps at an autocross with only the air flow from the deck vents vs the 20°F/6 seconds with two 10" fans sitting on top of them?
Wayne Presley www.verycoolparts.com
Xterminator 705 RWHP supercharged 4.6 DOHC with twin turbos
Stock location can't work... no air flow
Dan
818S #17 Picked up 8/1/13 First start 11/1/13 Go Kart 3/28/14
To me, the data clearly show that, compared to a AWIC, the stock A2A IC performance is compromised even with adequate airflow; this would be the case in the original fitment (WRX); in a stock 818 the temp rise would be greater.
What would be interesting is to know where the delta-T levels off at a typical power duty cycle representative of track duty, with adequate airflow. This would answer if the stock IC could be ever be useful even with proper ducting.
Hmmm... My 818 will be primarily a street car, but I'm starting to think about the AWIC!
Time (s) RPM MAP (kPa) TPS (%) MAT (°C) WT (°C) AuxT (°C) 1.857 2658 115.8 69.5 - 80 36 1.95 2780 117.6 97.6 - 80 36 2.013 2792 113 97.6 - 80 36 2.059 2799 114.4 97.7 - 80 36 2.137 2848 118.3 97.6 - 80 36 2.2 2856 114.5 97.6 - 80 37 2.293 2911 115.5 97.6 - 80 37 2.356 2931 118 97.6 - 80 37 2.371 2931 118 97.6 - 80 37 2.449 2963 114.4 97.6 - 80 37 2.512 2998 117.8 97.7 - 80 37 2.574 3025 115.5 97.7 - 80 37 2.668 3040 114.8 97.6 - 80 37 2.683 3040 114.8 97.6 - 80 37 2.746 3088 115.5 97.6 - 80 37 2.839 3131 115.9 97.6 - 80 37 2.871 3151 120.6 97.7 - 80 37 2.933 3158 117.1 97.7 - 80 37 2.995 3188 116 97.7 - 80 37 3.073 3227 116.1 97.7 - 80 37 3.136 3277 118 97.6 - 80 37 3.198 3297 119.4 97.6 - 80 37 3.276 3344 117.8 97.6 - 80 37 3.292 3354 118.1 97.6 - 80 37 3.385 3413 117.8 97.6 - 80 37 3.448 3419 119.9 97.7 - 80 37 3.526 3480 118.6 97.7 - 80 37 3.588 3482 117.8 97.6 - 80 37 3.635 3524 118 97.6 - 80 37 3.697 3562 120.5 97.7 - 80 37 3.76 3582 117.3 97.7 - 80 37 3.838 3638 120.3 97.7 - 80 37 3.869 3657 120.8 97.7 - 80 37 3.931 3688 116.4 97.6 - 80 37 3.978 3688 116.4 97.6 - 80 37 4.056 3752 115.5 97.7 - 80 37 4.119 3785 117 98.2 - 80 37 4.197 3829 121.3 97.7 - 80 37 4.259 3873 119.3 97.7 - 80 37 4.321 3900 120.4 97.7 - 80 37 4.399 3944 118.3 97.7 - 80 37
Wayne Presley www.verycoolparts.com
Xterminator 705 RWHP supercharged 4.6 DOHC with twin turbos
Time (s) RPM MAP (kPa) TPS (%) MAT (°C) WT (°C) AuxT (°C) 4.431 3975 119.3 97.7 - 80 37 4.509 3995 122.8 97.7 - 80 37 4.571 4038 121.4 97.8 - 80 37 4.633 4067 118.1 97.7 - 80 37 4.68 4076 118.9 97.6 - 80 37 4.743 4129 119 97.7 - 80 37 4.992 4264 123.1 97.7 - 80 38 5.023 4264 123.1 97.7 - 80 38 5.039 4264 123.1 97.7 - 80 38 5.133 4333 122 97.8 - 80 38 5.179 4350 123.5 97.7 - 80 38 5.242 4374 120.7 97.7 - 80 38 5.304 4401 123.3 97.6 - 80 38 5.398 4464 122.8 97.7 - 80 38 5.445 4478 124.3 97.7 - 80 38 5.507 4503 120.5 97.8 - 80 38 5.601 4543 122.7 97.7 - 80 38 5.601 4543 122.7 97.7 - 80 38 5.71 4603 123.8 97.7 - 80 38 5.757 4633 124.8 97.8 - 80 38 5.819 4652 124.6 97.7 - 80 38 5.881 4699 121.4 97.7 - 80 38 5.944 4726 122.5 97.6 - 80 38 6.022 4762 123 97.8 - 80 38 6.069 4791 125.3 97.7 - 80 38 6.162 4836 126.5 97.7 - 80 38 6.178 4836 126.5 97.7 - 80 38 6.256 4878 123.7 97.7 - 80 38 6.303 4908 123.6 97.7 - 80 39 6.365 4955 126.8 97.6 - 80 39 6.427 4977 126 97.8 - 80 39 6.505 5022 122.6 97.7 - 80 39 6.583 5081 126.8 97.7 - 80 39 6.646 5090 126.1 97.7 - 80 39 6.693 5118 126.6 97.7 - 80 39 6.739 5146 124.6 97.7 - 80 39 6.849 5193 125.7 97.7 - 80 39 6.927 5261 127.8 97.7 - 80 39 6.973 5286 126.5 97.7 - 80 39 7.02 5311 128.3 97.7 - 80 39 0
Wayne Presley www.verycoolparts.com
Xterminator 705 RWHP supercharged 4.6 DOHC with twin turbos
Time (s) RPM MAP (kPa) TPS (%) MAT (°C) WT (°C) AuxT (°C) 7.083 5331 127.6 97.7 - 80 39 7.098 5357 127.8 97.7 - 80 39 7.192 5419 127.7 97.7 - 80 39 7.301 5429 127.4 97.8 - 80 39 7.317 5429 127.4 97.8 - 80 39 7.379 5503 127.1 97.6 - 80 40 7.426 5520 127.8 97.7 - 80 40 7.488 5547 127.8 97.7 - 80 40 7.535 5597 128.8 97.7 - 80 40 7.629 5647 129 97.7 - 80 40 7.691 5664 129.4 97.7 - 80 40 7.753 5710 129.1 97.6 - 80 40 7.847 5757 128.7 97.7 - 80 40 7.878 5757 128.7 97.7 - 80 40 7.941 5810 128.5 97.7 - 80 40 8.019 5853 128.2 97.7 - 80 40 8.081 5877 128.3 97.6 - 80 40 8.128 5908 130.7 97.8 - 80 40 8.175 5921 131.8 97.7 - 80 40 8.268 5939 129.6 97.7 - 80 40 8.331 6035 130.6 97.7 - 80 41 8.424 6035 130.6 97.7 - 80 41 8.424 6035 130.6 97.7 - 80 41 8.471 6035 130.6 97.7 - 80 41 8.533 6035 130.6 97.7 - 80 41 8.596 6035 130.6 97.7 - 80 41 8.658 6035 130.6 97.7 - 80 41 8.721 6035 130.6 97.7 - 80 41 8.783 6035 130.6 97.7 - 80 41
Wayne Presley www.verycoolparts.com
Xterminator 705 RWHP supercharged 4.6 DOHC with twin turbos
thanks for the data!
Last edited by longislandwrx; 08-27-2014 at 02:42 PM.
A well stocked beverage fridge is the key to any successful project.
The stock IC can't allow air to flow through very well so much of it is covered by that stupid Y pipe, disrupting smooth flow
Dan
818S #17 Picked up 8/1/13 First start 11/1/13 Go Kart 3/28/14
I am going to start a depowering the rack gig. I have done about 10-15 other car types and 5 818 conversions and now I figure I will offer the service.
The drop off fee: $200
Mailing in fee of: $240 ( you pay to mail it in, but I do work and mail it back to you, and mailing fee is included in price)
Includes: teardown and seal removal, cleaning, pinion and line end welding, blasting, painting of line ends re-assembly with
High temp greese, and new boot ties.
Any other parts that are needed ( bushings, boots, inner parts etc, will be added to the bill with no additional labor
PayPal or cash only
Pm if your interested.
Last edited by metalmaker12; 08-29-2014 at 01:23 PM.
818S frame #13 Jdm version 8 ej207
"In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria."
818 (Chassis #34) Delivered 9/25/2013, First start 3/2/2014, First drive 4/5/2014, Registered 8/28/2015, First Dyno 3/18/2016, First SCCA event 4/3/2016, First car show HIN Honolulu 4/23/2016
Yeah, the awic is a great way to save yours and others, the IC will just not get the air it needs to function correctly.
818S frame #13 Jdm version 8 ej207
I've been considering doing an AWIC setup on my WRX now just having read through a lot of threads on the AWIC. However, in my reading it sounds like the down-side of the AWIC is still a higher propensity to heat-soak on long track stints. AWIC is mostly used for short drag-racing runs and drift stuff where heat-soak isn't an issue because it's just a couple laps.
http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced...tercooler.html
I know it's going to be better than a stock TMIC setup to run AWIC in an 818 but what if you could get more reverse flow through the IC by mounting a large FMIC against the mesh outlet of the 818R rear-end? The massive low-pressure cavity behind the trailing end of the car pulls air in through the sides, top and bottom of the engine bay and sucks it out through there.
Well just having finished a weekend at Barber with a SC Elise with an AWIC I can attest that the heat soak is not an issue. After a 20 minute race, the water in the coolant tank was 114°F on a 94° day. That was the equilibrium point with the size of heat exchanger installed. As you can imaging it's less than 50% of the size of the heat exchanger that is in the 818 AWIC I sell due to how small the nose is in the Elise.
Brandon, putting the A2AIC there will feed the intercooler engine heated air and not ambient.
Wayne Presley www.verycoolparts.com
Xterminator 705 RWHP supercharged 4.6 DOHC with twin turbos
Speaking of AWIC, metalbreaker where are you running your coolant lines from the tank to cooler? Along side the engine coolant tubes in the door sills?
Another question, normally what is better to increase efficiency of an AWIC setup? A larger heat exchanger, a bigger cooler or a bigger tank with more water?
Frank
818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
Build Completed Winter 2021
Wayne Presley www.verycoolparts.com
Xterminator 705 RWHP supercharged 4.6 DOHC with twin turbos
If you wire a fast response IAT sensor into the stock ECU you can use the ECU tables to do an effective engine cut if IATs get too high. Most of the Subaru ECUs have wastegate and boost target trim based on IAT, as well as ignition timing. I have my 08 STI maps set such that IATs above 140 degrees results in no additional boost above wastegate and a retarding in timing. The drop in boost is very noticeable and you would immediately know something is wrong.
I would really encourage running SD in a case like this. With SD you have very fine control of fueling and load mapping, plus a good fast IAT. I use an IAT sensor in the boost tube for my 08, wired into the MAF IAT circuit.
Nice. I'm also going to use the VCP AWIC setup.
I'm curious as to your piston tolerances. Here is how I built my motor last week ( new case, ACL bearings, Weisco pistons. ) Any idea how they compare?
Cheers, Jeff
Yeah, those clearances look about right. Personally, I prefer the rod bearings to be a bit looser than stock. Mine are all .00185"-.002'' and I ended up allowing the machine shop to resize a couple rods to get there after going through two sets of ACL "Race" Bearings. After two rod bearing failures I figured it's more important to get more oil flow there for heat evacuation purposes. Seems to be working out well.
Also, it needs to be said that the only way to get a post-turbo/IC IAT dependent tune on a stock Subaru ECU is to convert to speed density. I don't know if that was clear in your post. If you're on a MAF tune, it's not really possible to put another IAT sensor elsewhere on the intake tract. Replacing the MAF with an upgraded one still means having IAT reading come before the turbo. However, if you have more info on how to add another IAT on a MAF tune, link me to some readin' cause' I'll be doing that asap.
Yeah, but that's practically the case with the TMIC where it is. At least by moving it back to the tail end you'll have more air flowing through it and get the TMIC away from the hot turbo and away from being directly over the engine. Not ideal but a likely improvement over the stock location. Could perhaps be an option for re-locating the stock TMIC for a temporary solution for budget guys. I'd love to get some airspeed and temp readings from there vs. the stock location.
Last edited by BrandonDrums; 09-02-2014 at 06:18 PM.
I am running my plx device Afr, ait and egt modules with a dm-6 multi touch gauge. I will monitor the awic's efficiency.
As far as I know and other local tuners you can't just add an iat sensor to the maf ( in a maf setup) and expect the ecu work properly on all it's tables.
Last edited by metalmaker12; 09-02-2014 at 07:21 PM.
818S frame #13 Jdm version 8 ej207
You don't see it very much anymore because SD is so prevalent, but a blow-thru MAF setup allows you to get more accurate IAT readings post intercooler.
http://perrinperformance.com/i-13324...7-wrx-sti.html
Bingo. There is no reason you can't put the IAT sensor after the intercooler, even if you have the MAF before the intercooler/turbo. Back in the day (as the saying goes), I did both, and both worked well. The blow thru MAF setup is a bit funky, but it can be made to work. In both cases you have to make some adjustments to the Intake Air comp tables. If you have the IAT after the turbo it will see much higher IAT and as such you will want to change how the compensations are applied. Give me a sec and I'll post up a sample set of tables.
I have used the PLX devices extensively, and actually I used to be a dealer back in the PDX days. I'll post up some more comments in my build thread so as to not pollute yours. There are some interesting pluses and minuses.
Indeed I have done the aftermarket IAT sensor with the factory MAF sensor plugged in. The factory MAF will still have an IAT sensor in it, but I cut the wire to the ECU and added my own IAT sensor post turbo. While I would prefer to be on a speed density tune for this, you can do it MAF only. The MAF sensor itself it temperature dependent and temperature correcting, and the IAT sensor inside the MAF sensor can simply be disconnected from the ECU while leaving the MAF signal connected.
If you were going to this trouble you might consider just doing a blow-thru MAF, or as you suggested just switch to SD.
Jeff
Here are the tables I was talking about.. these are for an 06 WRX ECU:
The first table is the calibration table, which you have to change if you use a different sensor. Pretty easy.
The second table is timing compensation, which you would need to make flatter up to 210, then roll down. This is very useful for an AWIC because if post AWIC you AITs are over 220-230 you have a problem.
The third table allows you to get rid of WGDC at high IATS.
The forth is one of three tables that adjusts the PID algorythm based on IATs.
There are a few other tables, but they are of similar construction. If you move the IAT sensor to a post turbo/IC spot, you just need to adjust these accordingly.
Jeff
true but, before converting you can do plenty of datalogging of the actual IAT and see what your delta between the mafs readings are over various conditions. from there table two shouldn't be too hard to tweak. looking at Jeff's values IAT over 176 is unlikely, so you are really only generating 4 or 5 values. not too bad. start conservative and then add a little timing.
A well stocked beverage fridge is the key to any successful project.
That's a nice HE, what are its size specs? I am looking for exactly that type. EDIT: Sorry metalbruins, I just realized it's on Wayne's AWIC thread so I have asked there.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...l=1#post168412
Other thing, where will you install your tank?
Last edited by Frank818; 09-04-2014 at 07:59 PM.
Frank
818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
Build Completed Winter 2021