Andrew & Tamra's 818SR EM Autox Hybrid Destroked Long-Rod Build

[metalmaker12]

I think you hold the record for most elaborate turbo and exhaust setup. Its going to be a work of art when all finished and something few will be able to match. I hope you dyno it because I am very interested to see what kind of spool gains you get with this twin scroll setup.

Twin scroll internal or better yet external has much better spool bro. It's the only way to fly

[xxguitarist]

Anyhow, what are your boost plans. That turbo is a great setup and I like it way much, but as you prob know takes some decent boost to be in efficiency range( 18-25+) In autocross that thing will have to be dialed up so you have soild lower end torque to rip out of turns in the lower rev range. Should do the trick with the dual Ewg's to hold boost well, but full spool might not be till like 4,500. It might not matter in this beast cause you will be making like 225-250 @ like 3k so lag might not even be an issue. It's going to be crazy powrful mid range....can I get a glass of awesome!!!! I love your plan and build, great job guys

We figure we'll likely be around 20 psi. The engine is built for lots more, so we have plenty of headroom there. We're shooting for around 350 whp, with some lower boost tunes to get used to the handling on the course.

With our housing size/ A/R, we're expecting full spool closer to 3000 rpm. Might be a little later, but shouldn't be nearly so far out as 4500. We're on the smaller end for BWs.

Thanks!

[Tamra]

The up-pipe is officially welded and complete! Note: the T4 flange had to be mig welded, whereas the EWG's were TIG. This photo is BEFORE we cleaned up the inside edges, so they look a little rough.



Fresh off the TIG welder, not brushed yet:


Just enough clearance for everything:


We also chopped the cross brace. We will be reinforcing it, but just cut it tonight to start getting ideas for the solution. Also, we picked up this electric cut-off wheel. Our air cut off wheel was just not cutting it due to our air compressor not being able to keep it going. The electric one cuts through pipe about 20-30 times as fast - a huge time saver. We definitely should have bought this earlier than now. This, and the vice, are huge time savers.


Downpipe is tacked up. We will probably have to fiddle with it to get the cat in there for inspection, but for now, placement looks good. We will likely go with a v-band for the cat, which we will swap out with a small muffler later. Tomorrow, we will weld in our OEM o2 and our wideband o2 bungs, and finish welding everything. We have over 1/2" off the turbo everywhere from the cross brace in its currently chopped form.



And finally, we added in the 1/4" tapered spacers to fix the throttle cable rubbing issue. It's not perfect (rubs very slightly when fully compressed), but is overall pretty good. Thanks to Rori for the idea!

[Scargo]

Not to bad for a couple of wet behind the ears kids. I like the attitude of cut it out and then envision how it can be.
That cable issue looks like a candidate for a short piece of tube welded in at the right angle. I've got alum stock and a lathe...
(and now a working sand/bead blaster). Don't know what more I can do to lure you over. Cookie little girl? Beer Andrew?

[Hindsight]

Nice work. Coming together very quickly. I have that same grinder and can't tell you how often it saves me in various pinches. I have had the bench mount version of that on my tool-want list for some time: http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-D28710-.../dp/B00551DJBQ

[Scargo]

I know they are very popular but they are very messy. They also burn the metal, which gets in the air. I find that my HF hand grinder sends metal flying everywhere. Unavoidable, but messy. I like my HF horizontal/vertical metal cut-off saw with a really good Starrett blade on it. Slightly slower but one advantage is less cleanup required of the cut.
image_21195.jpg

[Hindsight]

Yeah the band saws are awesome but unfortunately not possible for me due to lack of space. The nice thing about the chop saw is that you can put them up on the shelf and out of the way when not using them. A friend told me they make a bladed variety of the metal chop saw that uses a blade that looks similar to that of a wood chop saw, instead of an abrasive disc. Says they are more accurate and better than the abrasive type.

[xxguitarist]

At my office we have both a good HUGE vertical metal bandsaw, an old JET model, and also a cold saw. Neither one want much to do with the stainless exhaust tubing that the abrasive type just blasts through. They'll both get through it, but it takes at least 5x as long, probably more.

They're both fantastic when it comes to mild steel or aluminum, though. Maybe the blades aren't as sharp as they could be.

[Scargo]

We used our five HP 10" Unisaw to cut aluminum plate back in the day. A special rake grind on the teeth and a mister. The blade style and tooth count is critical. The blade I listed is pretty good for bandsawing thin-walled tubing and 1/4 plate.

[metalmaker12]

We figure we'll likely be around 20 psi. The engine is built for lots more, so we have plenty of headroom there. We're shooting for around 350 whp, with some lower boost tunes to get used to the handling on the course.

With our housing size/ A/R, we're expecting full spool closer to 3000 rpm. Might be a little later, but shouldn't be nearly so far out as 4500. We're on the smaller end for BWs.

Thanks!

Like exhaust and tials,

Anyhow I meant full torque ( peak torque by 4,500) full bosst should be achieved like 3k. Sorry dude. Anyway it comes on should be awesome so it's only a matter of time before we see how it behaves with you setup and tune.

[Tamra]

Question for those of you more advanced in your builds... do the body panels travel below the bottom edge of this wooden board? Does anything sit below it other than the intercooler?




Not pictured, but we worked on adjusting the position of the engine. We are opting to have it shoved more toward the passenger side for weight balance. It's not a significant amount - a little less than 1". It does tilt the engine slightly, but since the bulk of the weight is on the bottom, it will assist in weight balance. We also dremelled the transmission mounting point. No movement of the engine would make the transmission mount sit without stressing it. Everything is now torqued and set.


Finally, we also adjusted the shifter cables a bit to get a better shifter feel. We tilted the bracket slightly back (slotted the hole for the bolt on the left part of the mount, allowing us to tilt the mount), and bent both mounts slightly to get a better angle.



We were initially shocked at the poor shifter quality. There is a ton of side to side play that we were not expecting, that cannot be adjusted out. This is due to the length of the cables.

For comparison of the 818 shifter as designed by FFR, we took a video of its motion compared to our 1997 Mazda Miata (considered by many to be one of the best shifting, most connected feeling cars you can drive), and our 2008 Mazdaspeed 3. The results surprised us, as you don't notice certain things when you drive a car every day that you most definitely notice when you are hands on installing a part.

The Miata was significantly better of course, but still has some side to side movement. The Mazdaspeed 3 has just as much side to side play, but does give a resounding "thunk" in each gear that gives it a lot of clarity. Once we adjusted the shifter mount on the transmission on the 818 (reducing the angles reduces the drag, giving the "clean" feel in the shifting), we got pretty close to the same feel as the Mazdaspeed 3. We are going to run with this set up, and if we find we have any problems with autocross, we'll look at the MR2 mod next winter.

See video below. First shot of the 818 is before we adjusted the cables, and then at the end I included the adjusted version.

[Hindsight]

Thanks for posting the cable adjustment info. I'm really picky about shifter feel so it's good to know. I'm pretty surprised that's all it took was to move the bracket a bit... surprised but happy!

[RM1SepEx]

Tamra. Part of the problem is the shifter is so long. I think if you stiffen up the shifter where the cables clamp you can get it be be cripsper feeling . I would shorten the shifter 3 inches or so and shorten that shifter slop 30 - 40 %

[xxguitarist]

Hindsight,
Yep, a bit of bending and slotting the hole lets you get rid of the large majority of the binding, etc. Just aim to get the cables as straight as possible on exit.
No promises that just doing this will make the bumper clearance happy, though.

Dan,
We're planning to under-mount the shifter, I agree that it's a really long linkage, but it's nice to have some mechanical advantage for the 1st-2nd direction, since that one isn't otherwise adjustable with the stock setup. It felt like cutting it down much would make that a pretty stiff shift. Could probably modify the underside to change the motion ratios too.. but that's starting to get a bit involved. We've got a big list of maybe plans for next winter.
Sidenote, could you let us know where the engine cover fiberglass sits relative to the 2x4" photo above?

[Tamra]

Actually, just found in Metalmaker's build thread that there is plenty of clearance. His photo showed a brace over his AWIC that is 8" above the bottom of the cross brace. This is good news, because we are currently thinking of adding a reinforcement brace going across the top of the cross brace (welded in flush at the tallest point). The top of the cross brace is only 6.5" up though, and our AWIC is 4.5" thick. If we add a 1" bar across the top, that will give us an extra 1" to spare for the AWIC. Anyone see any problems with this idea?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Sidenote, could you let us know where the engine cover fiberglass sits relative to the 2x4" photo above?

Metalmaker posted this picture where his engine cover support bar is 8" above the lower shock brace bar.
Bob

[RM1SepEx]

Hindsight,
Yep, a bit of bending and slotting the hole lets you get rid of the large majority of the binding, etc. Just aim to get the cables as straight as possible on exit.
No promises that just doing this will make the bumper clearance happy, though.

Dan,
We're planning to under-mount the shifter, I agree that it's a really long linkage, but it's nice to have some mechanical advantage for the 1st-2nd direction, since that one isn't otherwise adjustable with the stock setup. It felt like cutting it down much would make that a pretty stiff shift. Could probably modify the underside to change the motion ratios too.. but that's starting to get a bit involved. We've got a big list of maybe plans for next winter.
Sidenote, could you let us know where the engine cover fiberglass sits relative to the 2x4" photo above?

Look at the shifter's geometry, the ratio is such that the knob's arm is is about 3x times the distance from the pivot, so slop at the bottom = 3x slop atd the top. It shifts smooth enough with low enough effot to reduce that ratio. It is the easiest was to remove the slop. Hanging it under changes the knob location is a less that optimal nature

The end of the shifter is easy to fix, I posted the cheapest soln above, flip the subaru bracket aroun, chop, grind and reweld (page 6-7 of this thread)

[Ellimist]

We were initially shocked at the poor shifter quality. There is a ton of side to side play that we were not expecting, that cannot be adjusted out. This is due to the length of the cables.

Interesting that most of the slop is due to the cables. I opted for the aluminum shifter option since I figured the plastic shifter would be prone to more slop (as well as be less hardy). But if the cables are the main issue then maybe the different shifter won't help that. In any case, it'll be something different to explore!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Most the slop / backlash in the cable is caused by the amount of turns.
When you pull, the cable move to the inner surface of a turn. When you push, the cable moves to the outer surface of the turn. This is explain in the attached picture. Our cables are similar to 40 series.
Bob

[RM1SepEx]

xcellent summary Bob!, that's why you need to do everything that you can do to eliminate play everywhere else. And when you have a 3-1 multiplier and can reduce that ratio... you have to go for it.

That's why even with the new aluminum shifter I got rid of .025 play in the actual pivot, it all adds up!

comparison to a Miata is unfair as it is a totally mechanical linkage with little play, inside the transmission, in oil, with a short lever.

[Frank818]

I wonder what the backlash is on the K-Tuned race cables Wayne sells... Probably 0. lolll

BTW Ellimist, those K-Tuned cables might be an option over the FFR ones.

[Hindsight]

I'm not sure the backlash on the K-tuned vs FFR cables is any different.... Wayne would probably be the only person who knows since I'm assuming he sourced the cables and knows what they are, however, my guess is that a big part of the improvement that Wayne's setup may provide isn't so much due to better backlash but a shorter and much straighter cable run. The longer the cable and the more curves it has, the more opportunity for slop due to backlash being felt in the shifter no?

[RM1SepEx]

The Ktuned doesn't have the length and the loops, I would think getting rid of the front loops cuts the "slop" about in 1/2

[xxguitarist]

Yeah, my guess is that for the 1-2 direction, going with a rearward facing cable cuts the backlash to near-zero, since you do still have some curves to go over the engine etc.
The side-to side backlash should still exist, just be a bit improved since you took that 180 out of it. Still have at least a 90 and some other lesser curves.

[RM1SepEx]

make up a rotation mechanism to get rid of the loop... I might work on one for the stock shifter. Remember it isn't really how long, it's the loops

I have an old mid engine vw shifter in my garage somewhere, all rods, no cables...

[Tamra]

Snack break...more to come later....

[Scargo]

I smell a motor starting soon. Get back to work!

[metalmaker12]

Slackers, who needs food. I drove my 818 today, it was a little cold lol

[Tamra]

I smell a motor starting soon. Get back to work!

We have better than a start up video... We have a driving video!




We are not calling this our official go-kart day though - the seat is not permanently mounted, and neither is the shifter. However, we needed to turn it around in the garage, and well, driving it seemed like the easiest solution!

Case in point... the shifter mount:


So it was loud. Very loud. A muffler will definitely be required, and perhaps a larger one than we initially were planning on. It is so loud, we're not comfortable burping the coolant in the middle of the day until we have a muffler on it. It didn't help that we live in a quiet neighborhood and we decided to "turn it around" at 11pm. Sorry neighbors... we were stealth though. No headlights, so I'm sure nobody noticed.


Backing up a few hours, we wrapped the header and up pipe with DEI Titanium Wrap. The stuff is filled with a fiberglass type material and it was not fun, especially since twin scroll = twice as a hard. They say it will smoke for about 15 minutes on first start-up, which is where the smoke was coming from at the end of the video.




Made our turbo return line. It was easier to add the fittings than we expected:



Andrew welded the downpipe at work on Friday. Two bungs, one for the regular o2 and the other for wideband.


Put together our jack in the box Tial 38mm wastegates. We added the 5psi springs for now to ensure very limited boost. We will have a Grimspeed EBCS later.

[Tamra]

We welded up a turbo support brace:



Had to drill and tap our Forge BOV to get it to fit. There were no pipes available with the same adapter. This will be plumbed back into the Cobb intake, but not yet relevant due to no boost.


Final product. Rotated everything... including the AWIC

[wleehendrick]

Rotated everything... including the AWIC

I see what you did there...
dogheadtilted.jpg

Great job!

[Tamra]

LOL ^^ That's perfect wheelhendrick.


So some quick facts about our hours leading up to our first "drive" last night (see two posts above if you missed the video):

Since picking up the Subaru in May 2014 through the day we picked up our kit:
65 Total days spent on donor
136.25 total hours spent on donor
2.10 average hours per day spent working (excluding days we did not work)

10/24/2014 Last day of donor work before kit pickup
164 Total days we had donor - May - October
0.83 average hours per day including days we did not work

52 hours spent until the shell was hauled away and we began donor parts cleanup


Since we picked up the kit on 10/25/14:
54 Total days actually working on the 818 since pickup
216.5 total hours since pickup
4.01 average hours per day spent working (excluding days we did not work on the car)

1/18/2015 today's date
83 total days since pickup on 10/25/14
2.61 average hours spent per day including days we did not work

11.9 weeks since pickup
18.3 hours per week average

53.5 hours spent on engine build since pickup (88.5 hours spent on full engine rebuild, including during donor teardown time)
25 hours spent on turbo solution
138 hours spent on actually building the 818


Overall total including donor and 818:
119 Total days actually working since pickup
352.75 total hours spent working since donor pick up through 1/18/15
2.96 average hours per day spent working

1/18/2015 today's date
248 total days since pickup of donor
1.42 average hours per day

These numbers do not account for the fact that there have been 2 of us... (although I probably only count as .5)

In addition, we have sold:

$2,999 from Craigslist
$600 from CT Subie
$1,589 from Ebay
$10 Metalscrap
$1,720 from Nasioc
----------
$6,918 total donor sales

Somewhere north of $14,000 in additional parts purchases + $6,300 cost of donor and still climbing...

[Hindsight]

Congrats on the first start and drive! It sounds great. I think you two may have won the record for fastest build, and the fact that you did a great job on everything and didn't cut a bunch of corners makes it even more of an achievement.

[Tamra]

Congrats on the first start and drive! It sounds great. I think you two may have won the record for fastest build, and the fact that you did a great job on everything and didn't cut a bunch of corners makes it even more of an achievement.

Definitely not the fastest build... I think some of the initial builders were crazy fast (Metalmaker for example). We might have the record for fastest build including a full engine rebuild and completely custom turbo set-up...lol

Still a lot left to do though. We're not calling it official go-kart day until we have installed seats and a fully installed shifter, plumb in the wastegates (no boost running to them now so they won't open), burped coolant system, and water running to the awic.

However, it was fun to know we technically can drive it under its own power

[flynntuna]

Congrats, you may or may not be the fastest build, but you probably have gotten the most back from the donor! I appreciate the extra effort in recording the time taken in various parts of the build. It gives us a real world view of what a build will take to complete.

[RM1SepEx]

Nice work, congrats on the short drive... I like the rotated turbo, IC etc... very clean looking install!

[Scargo]

Woot, WOOT! That's cool! Yes, wrap will smoke for a good while and then, where it gets really hot, will become brittle as hell. It will disintegrate when moved.
I made hardwood soft-jaws for building my hoses. Not bad once you get the hang of it. I use a little grease to get everything together easily and not hurt the aluminum on aluminum interaction. There's a few tricks to keep the SS from fraying so much.
Good job guys!

[xxguitarist]

Today we had to do some of the usual household chores, and cleaned up a LOT in the garage. After turning the car around, the side table was a bit in the way.

Otherwise, we modified the sparco slider brackets to get a bit lower in the car.



With this change, if we bolt the sliders directly to the X frame, I'll about pass the "broomstick test", and we have a few clicks of adjustment so that Tamra and I are both comfortable driving the car.

On that note, anyone see problems with bolting straight through that X area (under the seats)? Just use low-profile on top & bottom sides both?

[Scargo]

Looking at your image I see that the rear is at the bottom-most hole. Do you still have room underneath the seat shell to lower it more? If so you could create a new rear hole; even if you need to make a special spacer shim for each side.
Then you could weld-in 3/16" plates that straddles the X and bolt directly to them. Otherwise I would weld in anti-crush sleeves in the X member for your mount holes.
While it may be a moot point for autocross, I have concerns about bolting directly to the X member, as-is, for street, highway or track use.

[Hindsight]

Mine is adjusted the same as yours (full up in front and full down in back). With the stock fuel tank, I don't believe my seat will clear the rear firewall. I need to put that firewall back in temporarily to make sure bit if it fits, it will be VERY close. Probably have to come down a notch or two in the front on mine. YMMV though.