Andrew & Tamra's 818SR EM Autox Hybrid Destroked Long-Rod Build

[Tamra]

Our car is being built for autocross, so any recommendations you see here may not be applicable to the street or track. Our car is street legal for convenience, but is being build for performance not street comfort.



The new Hypercoils are installed on all four corners. Wayne, we went with your suggestion and we are going to try 450F/500R tomorrow. Seems like it is popular with the lotus crowd (in autocross) to run even stiffer rear springs (more like 800 rear), but with us coming from Miatas (which run closer to 700+f and 400R), it's a little hard for us to be willing to jump that far yet.

We don't like a loose car. Is there a reason that many of the mid engine cars run so much stiffer rear springs?

Our ride heights are raised up a little, to 3 1/4" front and 3 1/2" rear (pretty close to the same forward rake as the last event, which was 3/16" and now we are 4/16"). We want the car a little lower, but that's as low as we can go in the rear with the new, stiffer springs, without losing too much preload. We may have to switch to a 7" spring in the rear to correct this. We jumped up and down on the frame of the car and rolled it a bunch before measuring, so they shouldn't change much. We will double check everything in the morning.

Oh yeah, BobnCincy - we took your suggestion and picked up the nylon tipped set screws. The provided ones had destroyed the threads on our sleeves, and it took us awhile to file them back smooth. That's why our collars were binding so badly.

[Rasmus]

We don't like a loose car. Is there a reason that many of the mid engine cars run so much stiffer rear springs?

It's really all about Spring Frequency. Realize that Spring Rates are determined by the Spring Frequency you choose. You can get the 818 to ride almost exactly like your Autocross Miata. Just Calculate the Spring Frequencies for the Miata. Then reverse calculate the Spring Rate for the 818. That'll give you an excellent starting point rather than guessing.

To calculate spring frequency when you have Motion Ratio, Spring Rate, and Sprung Weight:
SpringFrequencyinHz = ( ( SpringRateinInchLB / SprungWeightinLB ) ^ 0.5 * 3.13 / MotionRatio )


To calculate spring rate when you have the Spring Frequency, Motion Ratio, and Sprung Weight:
SpringRateinInchLB = ( ( MotionRatio * SpringFrequencyinHz/ 3.13 ) ^ 2 * SprungWeightinLB )

MotionRatio is the amount the spring moves relative to the amount the hub moves when compressed or drooped. So if the Hub moves up 2 inches when going over a bump and the Spring compresses 1.32 inch, you've a motion ratio of 0.66 (double wishbones act like this). If the Hub moves up 2 inches when going over a bump and the Spring compresses 1.9 inch, you've a motion ratio of 0.95 (struts act like this). If the Hub moves up 2 inches when going over a bump and the Spring compresses 0.25 inch, you've a motion ratio of 0.125 (rocker arm F1 style suspensions act like this).

SprungWeightinLB is the Sprung Weight in Pounds per corner. So put your car on the scales get the corner weight then subtract the unsprung weight from the corresponding corner (e.g. wheels, tires, brake parts, hubs/knuckes, half of the steering tie rod, half of the A-arms, half of the damper, half of the axle).

An easy way to get the unsprung weight is to put the car on jackstands and remove the spring/damper (coilover) from the suspension. Then reassemble everything without the spring and damper. Now put a scale under the tire, while the car's chassis is on jackstands and see how much unsprung weight you've got there. Then add half of the coilover's weight to what the scale reads. Now when I type "easy", I mean easier than uninstalling your a-arms, knuckles, axles, and brakes to weigh them. Make sure when you go for a weigh that the tire's at approximately ride height. You don't want anything binding up and taking a load off the scale.

So if you find your Miata running Frequencies of 2.5Hz/2.8Hz (front/rear) just calc what Spring Rates you'll need for the 818 to get 2.5Hz/2.8Hz. Or whatever it calculates out to be. That's your starting point.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

We want the car a little lower, but that's as low as we can go in the rear with the new, stiffer springs, without losing too much preload. We may have to switch to a 7" spring in the rear to correct this. .

Tamra,
I'm not sure how changing spring length will change your preload distance.
I had to go with tender springs.

Rasmus,
Great advice on spring frequency. I have been using Wayne's and other Lotus info as they have the most similarity to our 818's. Our 600 in the back are a pretty rough on street potholes. They seem fine at auto-crossing.
With them, the car is super responsive with very little body roll.

Bob

[Tamra]

Bob, you're totally correct. We agree with you that a helper would be necessary and maybe even stick with the 8" springs (need to look at where we are at on the sleeve). I think we were tired and under the influence of an IPA or two when we had that thought process last night.

We are used to the Konis on our Miata where there isn't enough sleeve left for a longer spring.

Bug is loaded on the trailer (Thanks Glyn!!!!) and ready to go. We are triple driving with our friend Tim tomorrow (remember him? he was the one out here almost every Sunday over the winter helping). Should be another good test of the car.

[Sgt.Gator]

Here's a spreadsheet that will help immensely with these calculations.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7A...ew?usp=sharing

I hope I set the link up right. You should be able to download the spreadsheet. If not I can email it directly to you, just PM me with your email address.

[Frank818]

I confirm the spreadsheet is downloadable. Don't look at it online, the print margins aren't adjusted so it cuts the width.

I sure am going to play with it! I might need stiffer rears.

What's our unsprung weight? It depends of the brakes, but without them, do we know?
And how do we know the values to input in the resistance area?

According to the sheet, I need a 3035lbs rear spring. lolll

[Sgt.Gator]

I confirm the spreadsheet is downloadable. Don't look at it online, the print margins aren't adjusted so it cuts the width.

I sure am going to play with it! I might need stiffer rears.

What's our unsprung weight? It depends of the brakes, but without them, do we know?
And how do we know the values to input in the resistance area?

According to the sheet, I need a 3035lbs rear spring. lolll

I think you missed a part of the calculation!

On the unsprung weight you can pretty much ballpark it. If you know the tire + wheel weight, guess or weigh the brake rotor and caliper w/pads. The rest of the suspension is only a few pounds. It affects the calculation but you can see if you change it from 100lbs to 50 lbs the overall calculation doesn't change dramatically.

[Tamra]

Above: Bug getting some pre-race advice from Bumblestook, a nationally prepared BSP S2000

Update from the weekend of racing!

Good news and bad news.

Good news - the new set up felt great. We liked the 450f/500R setup. We may reduce the rake a little (will need to get helper springs for the rear) before next season, and/or get more rear tire. The car spins up the tires so easily, and tends to get too loose on power.

My last run would have been good for 6th fastest time at the event if I wouldn't have coned.

Unfortunately, with 3 runs left, the car stalled when I went back to grid and wouldn't start again. ANOTHER no start issue.

We couldn't figure it out on site, so our friend Steve generously offered us Bumblestook, his BSP S2000. Bumblestook is very well prepared and isn't offered out for co-drives often, so it was a rare opportunity to drive a really awesome car. So while we were bummed about Bug breaking, we were really excited to get our last few runs in Bumblestook!

In my 2nd run in the car, I set 6th fastest time of the day (.1 seconds faster than my last run in the 818, which goes to show how well set up the car is) and would have been top 15 by pax if I was running BSP. What a fantastic car, and Steve has done an excellent job setting it up. Getting to drive well setup cars helps us set goals for the 818.


So, we dug into the 818 tonight looking for what happened. The car was turning over, but not starting, so it was not the same issue as last time. We could hear the fuel pump kicking on, so we suspected a bad cam or crank sensor, so we pulled them first. Both were clean, and the multimeter said they were good. We next checked the spark plugs - clean, but less fuel than expected considering we had been trying to start the car. So, we started looking at the fuel lines. We could hear the pump kicking on, but when we pulled off a fuel line, no fuel came out. We worked backward to the pump, and figured out the hose inside of the tank had somehow come off.

Easy fix! We also reviewed the video of the last run (I forgot to data log, whoops), and we can clearly see that the AFR's did not go lean under boost, which is excellent news. Much better to have it fall off in grid than while boosting.


Here's a video of my last, fastest run. I took awhile to get my confidence up. The car is powerful, it was cold so the tires weren't working great, and it's easy to get sensory overload. I'm also still acclimating to the mid-engine handling. However, in this last run I started to get up to speed by part way through (first half isn't so good), and drove a 41.4, which would have been good for 6th overall if I wouldn't have hit that cone in the beginning. The car has a lot of potential and is a blast to drive!

[Tamra]

Also, for comparison, here are our runs in the BSP S2000:

[Canadian818]

I have nothing to add, but I just wanted to thank you for keeping your build thread going. I always enjoy your updates, they're truly a contribution to the development of the 818. That s2k seems solid!

[Tamra]

I have nothing to add, but I just wanted to thank you for keeping your build thread going. I always enjoy your updates, they're truly a contribution to the development of the 818. That s2k seems solid!

Thank you!

[BN]

I have nothing to add, but I just wanted to thank you for keeping your build thread going. I always enjoy your updates, they're truly a contribution to the development of the 818. That s2k seems solid!

I agree

[Tamra]

We went out for a beautiful Fall drive today in the 818. It was about 4 hours round trip, which included some highway driving, some backgrounds, a visit to Tmoretta's house, and some coastal driving on the way home. The car drove great, with the only issue being our speed sensor went out on the way home. It was very alarming, since we had launch control set at 2500rpm, which then kicked in the freeway at 70mph because we were cruising at just over 2500rpm. It basically acts like a rev limiter. We adjusted the launch control up and were to good to go. We'll pick up a new speed sensor.

We helped Tmoretta with checking his alignment. His car is really really nice, and you can tell he put a lot of attention to detail into it. The body work is very OEM like, and he has finishing touches such as footwell lights that activate when you open the doors, hood props for everything, and nice hinges. The car is also a fantastic orange color that really shines. His alignment was spot on, and we all suspect his tramlining issue is due to a lack of castor. We have the aluminum control arms (castor adding) with spacers (more castor adding) on our car, and he has the regular steel arms.

Tmoretta's car is much more street friendly, since he has the FFR 818S shocks and springs, compared to our 450/500lb springs. Andrew had a chance to drive the car, and said that the clutch was also much easier than our Southbend Stage 2. Our car is race car > street car though, whereas Tmoretta's is 95% street car. It shows!

Here's a few photos from our drive today:

[flynntuna]

Great photos! Very inspiring for us in the build phase

[metalmaker12]

Nice!!!

[Aceflo]

Beautiful cars. Nice scenery as well.

[Tamra]

Thanks everyone, we appreciate the complements.

So we have been trying to figure out our plan for wheels and tires for the coming season, because our current 245's all around just aren't enough. We are thinking 275's up front, and 315's in the rear. Wheels wise, we don't have the budget to spring for a full custom wheel setup yet, so we are sticking with the lower cost side of things.

Here are our thoughts:

Front
275/35/15 Hoosier A7's in the front, on 15x10 wheels, probably Diamond steelies. Seems like we can get proper backspacing to clear all of the suspension components. Our street tires (215/40/17) have a diameter of 23.8", our current race tires (245/40/15) have a diameter of 22.7", and the proposed tires (275/35/15) have a diameter of 22.6". Diameter wise we should be golden, and we can measure for suspension clearance.

Rear
The rear seems like it will be the challenge. For autocross, we want to stay as narrow as possible, but there is no way we are going to fit a 315 inside the fenders. Our goal will be to move the suspension components inward as much as we can. This may involve making some custom parts. However, we will also plan on flaring the fenders.

So the next challenge was deciding on wheel size. In 17", non custom wheels, we can only get a 17x10 in 5x100 (XXR 531). This would be a little narrow for a 315, and would better fit a 295/35/17 (25.1" diameter). I'm not sure if a 295 will be "enough" tire to offset the 275's up front. What do you think? The car is pretty loose on power, so we'd like a lot more stick. It's also only a 1.8% gearing increase over our current 245/45/16 tires in the rear (from 71mph top speed to 72mph, in 2nd gear).

The next option is an 18x11 (XXR 531), which is a much better fit for a 315, and we could do a 315/30/18 (25.4" diameter). Our current rear tire is a 245/45/16 (24.7" diameter), so the 18" will give us a 3.1% increase in gearing (from 71mph top speed to 73 mph).

Both of the rear wheel options have an offset of 20, which is way too high to fit with the suspension components. We will have to do extended wheel studs and spacers, and also work to move the suspension components out of the way as much as we can.

Thoughts, opinions, advice?

[Pearldrummer7]

FWIW, my quote from Team Dynamics was ~15% cheaper than my same-size Enkei RPF1's.

Man, 275/315 is HUGE. That's so cool! You don't think it's "too much" front tire for such a light car?

[Tamra]

If the Lotus' run them, I think we can run them. We will have to see if we can get enough heat into them, but with our plans this winter we should be shifting some weight forward which will help.

I believe Team Dynamics are pricey in the sizes we need (well over $2k for a set). If we go to that price range, we will probably go with SSR's, Volks, or Bogart wheels. The XXR's are $140/wheel, and the Diamonds are less. They are heavy, which isn't ideal, but we aren't ready to spring for custom expensive wheels yet.

[Pearldrummer7]

If the Lotus' run them, I think we can run them. We will have to see if we can get enough heat into them, but with our plans this winter we should be shifting some weight forward which will help.

I believe Team Dynamics are pricey in the sizes we need (well over $2k for a set). If we go to that price range, we will probably go with SSR's, Volks, or Bogart wheels. The XXR's are $140/wheel, and the Diamonds are less. They are heavy, which isn't ideal, but we aren't ready to spring for custom expensive wheels yet.

That's what I'd have been concerned with, heat.

Really? My quote for 17x8 + 35 and 17x9 + 35 was under $1,000. I went through Oakos Automotive. Either way, proper sizing makes more sense than trying to be lightweight IMO. That can always be a later upgrade.

[Tamra]

I'm not sure if we can even get a 15x10 in 5x100. I remember looking into them before and figuring out they wouldn't work. To get an 18x11 I believe you have to go to their fancy forged models which are $$$.

Keep in mind, we aren't going for "normal" sizes. 17x8 and 17x9 are a piece of cake

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Tamra,
In front I'm running 235/40-17 on 17x9 48et with my control arms 20mm extra long. No rub.

profile.jpg

I tried my rear tires in front. 255/40-17 on 17x9 48et. I had rubbing at full lock on the lower frame bar at full droop.
Bob

[Tamra]

Tamra,
In front I'm running 235/40-17 on 17x9 48et with my control arms 20mm extra long. No rub.

profile.jpg

I tried my rear tires in front. 255/40-17 on 17x9 48et. I had rubbing at full lock on the lower frame bar at full droop.
Bob

That's why we are going with 15" wheels up front. No way the 17's will fit in that size lol. However, at a 22.6" diameter in the front, the 275/35/15 will fit easily as long as they are spaced out enough. Fender flares will be necessary.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

That's why we are going with 15" wheels up front. No way the 17's will fit in that size lol. However, at a 22.6" diameter in the front, the 275/35/15 will fit easily as long as they are spaced out enough. Fender flares will be necessary.

Your sounding like Michael. Bigger has to be better.
No way to get 15" on my fronts without brake modification.
The recommended temp for our R888 is 160 to 220F. We are lucky to get them above 120 at autocrosses.
Bob

[C.Plavan]

I paid ~$900 for my Team Dynamic's (17x8 fronts and 17x9 rears) So cheap, I bought two sets

[Tamra]

Your sounding like Michael. Bigger has to be better.
No way to get 15" on my fronts without brake modification.
The recommended temp for our R888 is 160 to 220F. We are lucky to get them above 120 at autocrosses.
Bob

We have 15" wheels on the front right now with our WRX brakes, no modification. Maybe we just lucked out.

The R888 isn't really an autocross tire (more of a track tire), so it makes sense that you have trouble getting heat into them.

I paid ~$900 for my Team Dynamic's (17x8 fronts and 17x9 rears) So cheap, I bought two sets

On the Team Dynamics, we have no use for another set of 17x8 wheels. We already have those for the street. A 9" wide wheel won't work for 315's. For someone looking for "normal" wheels, they seem like a great option. We would have considered them if we wouldn't have found a great deal on a set of Enkei PFO1's, which we use for our street wheels. We got them in trade for our old donor turbo with shaft play. Beat that price!

However, show me Team Dynamic wheels that come in 15x10 and 18x11 that cost $900... they don't exist.


Any opinions on the tire stagger in the rear - 275 up front with 295 or 315 rears? Pros and cons?

[xxguitarist]

Info for those who are concerned about not getting heat into the 275 15s..
It's the default size for a CSP miata, which weighs less and makes less power. We will be able to get heat into them as long as we get the handling limits of the car almost high enough.

And a reminder- we are talking purely about our intents for race wheels next season. They will only wear Hoosier A7s, or possibly a hillclimb/autox specific non-DOT radial.

[Scargo]

I've been reading about this oversized tire issue for autocross. Is it out of the realm of possibilities that you go to 5X114? Adapters or STi hubs seems like the only option unless you welded a ring to the spindles you have and redrill them.
Obviously I am thinking of the increased wheel options that would become available.
As to size and adequate heat buildup, I think you have answered that yourself. Other similar, light cars are doing it. The obvious gain is a wider footprint, more stable stance and more of the tire will stay on the ground regardless of roll and slip angle. Just by observing who is winning and what they are running seems to point to big tires. Weight and inertia don't seem to offset the gains.

Two thoughts: You might want to run smaller tires and softer compounds in the spring and fall. For the hot months run big tires on the front! Understeer will always be a problem on slower, tighter courses. Sounds like power is adequate to move the rear around.
Good luck!

[Tamra]

I've been reading about this oversized tire issue for autocross. Is it out of the realm of possibilities that you go to 5X114? Adapters or STi hubs seems like the only option unless you welded a ring to the spindles you have and redrill them.
Obviously I am thinking of the increased wheel options that would become available.
As to size and adequate heat buildup, I think you have answered that yourself. Other similar, light cars are doing it. The obvious gain is a wider footprint, more stable stance and more of the tire will stay on the ground regardless of roll and slip angle. Just by observing who is winning and what they are running seems to point to big tires. Weight and inertia don't seem to offset the gains.

Two thoughts: You might want to run smaller tires and softer compounds in the spring and fall. For the hot months run big tires on the front! Understeer will always be a problem on slower, tighter courses. Sounds like power is adequate to move the rear around.
Good luck!

We thought about the adapters, or even finding a way to convert our hubs. The issue is that in the front, we really need 4x100 oddly enough, because that's the bolt pattern that all of the wide 15" wheels come in. In the rear, 5x114.3 would have some added benefits from more wheel choices (but I'm not sure if there is wider than an 18x11 offered cheaply in 5x114.3? Since we can get that in 5x100, I see no motivation at this point for the adapter) and stronger axles. But would the STI axles be strong enough? Or do we even need them? Bob N Cincy made it through hundreds of wheel hop heavy launches before they broke one. Others have broken axles with seemingly no effort at all.

We are going to stick with the cheap wheels for now and do some further testing. If we start breaking axles frequently, then we may consider it worth it to do the conversion to 5x114.3 on the rear. The issue is we don't want 5x114.3 on the front since it is even harder to find 15" wheels in that bolt pattern. Alternatively, we could convert to 5x114.3 all around and then spend the money on fully custom race wheels ($$$) which we can get in pretty much any size, width, and bolt pattern. I'm sure we will end up with the lightweight, custom, wheels at some point, but we'd rather wait until we figure out which bolt pattern we want them in

I guess that's both the fun and the challenging part of this car. There is no proven recipe - we have to experiment and figure it out on our own!

[Scargo]

Agreed. Part of the fun and the agony. It has been shown that WRX stuff breaks. Bearings are smaller. In my five+ years of track days and knowing five or six guys with STis, none have had tranny axle or wheel bearing issues. I just paid $3K for a delivered '06 six-speed that looks like new. Had some original clear oil in it. Another $500 and you have a close-ratio box. Add a diff and you've got a great box for $5K. LOL, I've got three trannys apart right now.
I'd go big in the rear, since you guys seem good enough and dedicated enough. Don't let another season slip by.

[Tamra]

Our car is a fatty! This is no driver.

At least we know what our winter starting weight is.

[Canadian818]

It's hard to find wide 5x100 wheels. The frs/brz has helped in adding some selection. However they only fit 9.5 wide stock and usually it's hard to find a front wheel to match. There's a few now going with oversized tires, and I've read lots of comments on how loose the rear is under throttle. What are your plans for flares? I've ordered some xxr's and some 255 and 295 proxes. Ordered some eBay frp flares, but I'm about a month away from any body work.

[Tamra]

Andrew is hoping to build them out of fiberglass and make them look like they were always that way. We aren't quite there yet though, so we will keep you updated.


Also, we are working on ordering our other project parts for the winter.

We just ordered this Sparco L360 steering wheel. We actually got it for a better price than listed on Amazon right now even, which we were happy with. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002JI3G4S
51DDRNvBjrL.jpg

For the hub, I did some reading and it sounds like only the Works Bell hub makes life simple in keeping the horn and auto canceling signals. Is that what everyone else has found? I found it here for $130 shipped. Anyone know of any better deals? http://shop.topspeedtuned.com/works-bell-hub-subaru/

Originally we were pretty set on getting a quick release, but after sitting in tmoretta's car, which doesn't have a quick release, we think we will try it without at first. Since we bought a D shaped steering wheel it should help for getting in and out of the car. That, plus, 2" smaller diameter than the OEM Momo wheel should help too.

Next up on the list is putting together a drawing of a fuel cell and having Boyd Welding quote it out. Andrew could also make one, but for the amount of time it would take, we may just order one. Boyd has some "drop in" ones that would fit our application, starting at only $99, but we really want a flange for an in tank fuel pump, which none of theirs have. Hopefully they can modify one to have that for us for not too much extra.

The two we are looking at for starting points are: http://www.fueltankparts.com/5-gallon-rfh.html or http://www.fueltankparts.com/5-gallo...fuel-tank.html
img_4440.jpgimg_0988.jpg

Neither of the above would require cutting any chassis bars, since we have an opening at the top that will fit a 12x8 tank with a little room to spare. Ideally we could get a slightly larger tank that was say, 12x8x18 (tall). We will email them and see what options we have.

[Pearldrummer7]

So it was ~230 pounds for the body, lights, ducktail, etc?

Is your bumper for inspection still mounted?

[Hindsight]

Andrew is hoping to build them out of fiberglass and make them look like they were always that way. We aren't quite there yet though, so we will keep you updated.

If you do, consider making a mold so you can produce more. I think there is a GOOD market here for a nice looking set of fender flares that allow people to run tires larger than 255 out back. The small rear tire size is going to be the 818's limiting factor when it comes to high HP builds.

[Canadian818]

If you do, consider making a mold so you can produce more. I think there is a GOOD market here for a nice looking set of fender flares that allow people to run tires larger than 255 out back. The small rear tire size is going to be the 818's limiting factor when it comes to high HP builds.

Don't forget the transmission and axles

[Flamshackle]

Our car is a fatty! This is no driver.

At least we know what our winter starting weight is.

Where does the extra weight come from?

[Tamra]

So it was ~230 pounds for the body, lights, ducktail, etc?

Is your bumper for inspection still mounted?

That is correct. The initial weight was 1830lbs without driver. It was a fully driveable go-kart and included the windshield and carbon canister, but no wipers, no fiberglass, no bumper, no headlights or tail lights.

This weight includes the rear bumper (15lbs?) - we never had a front bumper - and the fiberglass, headlights, tail lights, and splash guards. We removed the carbon canister (10lbs?). So basically, the fiberglass, headlights, tail lights, and splash guards combined weigh about 230lbs.

If you do, consider making a mold so you can produce more. I think there is a GOOD market here for a nice looking set of fender flares that allow people to run tires larger than 255 out back. The small rear tire size is going to be the 818's limiting factor when it comes to high HP builds.

We will do our best! Hopefully they go well.

Where does the extra weight come from?

Tbh, I'm not really sure. We know that the AWIC system weighs a bit. It includes 2 gallons of water, the radiator, the intercooler, the pump, and all of the piping. Maybe 100lbs there? However, we reduced weight through our race seats, which are significantly lighter than the OEM Subaru seats that FFR's estimate includes (20lbs each vs 50+ lbs, so that's a 60lb weight saving). The other guess is gas. Both times we weighed the car, the gas tank was mostly full. 15 gallons of gas weighs ~90lbs. FFR is likely weighing the car with minimal gas.

So there is about 200lbs of additional weight, minus 60lbs from the seats, putting us at 140lbs over the "regular" build. Our turbo also weighs 25lbs, so that's not helping! Regardless, all of that still wouldn't get us to 1800lbs. Maybe fully dry weight, no oil, coolant, gas?

Our lightening plans this winter include the 5 gallon fuel cell, so that should save us 70lbs or so between the gas and the lighter tank, a lightweight battery which will save us around 30lbs. We may cut off the sway bar brackets as well since we don't need them, for another few pounds. I'm not really sure where to get another 100lbs from without spending a lot of money. We will re-weigh after our winter projects to see how successful we are.

[Mechie3]

It would be interesting to have someone weight an unbuilt kit + parts just to see what it is.

[Flamshackle]

It would be interesting to have someone weight an unbuilt kit + parts just to see what it is.

That would be very helpful in some ways. Totally dry weight.