Wow!! FF really dropped the QC Ball here!

[Blwalker105]

OK, so I get it that FF is a quasi-cottage-industry but the interface of the new front end's upper front door, front fender and windshield area is truly a nightmare. Did they really pay someone to create these molds!?! I have spent the better part of the last 5 weeks trying to get these ridiculous parts to fit with the hope of it looking even semi-professional when finished. I thought I had seen the worst with having to cut a giant pie-shaped slice out of the hood to address one fender being 1/2" shorter than the other,



but after fitting both doors, there are HUGE triangular-shaped gaps at the aforementioned interface areas. WTF?!? Did the person making the front fender molds even live in the same zip code as the door and hard top fabricators?
Enough ranting. In an effort to eventually have a finished car, I have come up with a workable solution to these troublesome areas. It may look a little daunting for those uninitiated with fiberglass techniques, but it is more a matter of proper prep-work and materials than anything else. First, an overview: the factory hardtop's front lower A-pillar areas are cut very flat (and poorly) and sit directly above compound-curving upper front door areas and front fenders whose rear edges don't extend far enough rearward. The result is this:


a monstrous void that can only be minimized by painting everything black, standing back 20 feet at dawn or dusk, squinting and hoping everyone pays more attention to your smokey burnouts than your build quality. Gross!!!

I wanted something like this, but was turned off as it looked too Viper-esque


so I decided to strike out on my own and get crazy with it:

[Blwalker105]

I decided to integrate the interface into the A-Pillar, with the backup plan to cut everything off, and glass the new interface onto the rear of the front fenders (Viperesque) if I thought that would look better.

Let me know your thoughts on the two ideas.







All the above pics are with the modification attached to the A-Pillar...I can always cut it off anywhere and glass it onto the rear of the front fender with a single cut line delineating a new transition between the hardtop and the lower areas in question.

[Blwalker105]

sorry for my huge close-ups. I'm still getting the hang of posting pictures and will strive to get some distance perspective shots tomorrow.

[flynntuna]

If you could draw a line with a sharpie to show us were the seam between the fender a pillar and hood will be before you take the distant pictures will give us a better idea of how it'll look.
in the first pic, the viper-esque looking one the extention appears flush with the fender, while in the last pic it looks like the extention kicks out at the end of the fender. Am I seeing that right?

It's a shame that paintless panels feature didn't pan out.

[carrera1984]

Wow, that' really bad. Looks like your final products going to look great though. I did some fiberglass work today too. Just made a simple sub box, but worked out good... better than I thought. I feel more confident as I haven't glassed anything in 8 years or so. If I have the same QC on my kit as you, I'm going to be pretty upset. Can't blame you for venting a little. I have the same red new body style... we'll see!

[6t8dart]

Way worse than I realized, I had entetained the thought of getting one of these. They need to fix these issues asap!

[Frank818]

On my passenger side I have a small triangle gap, so small only a good eye knowing about the 818 would notice and I have some play still to make it even smaller. On the driver side I have none at all, the panels overlap perfectly. There are certainly a lot of différences between frames and body panels, I guess I was lucky for #181 but then I had to cut a lot on the rear engine cover around the roll bar whereas only a few people I've seen needed to do it and some even not at all. I believe yes there could be improvements in the methodology used to mold the panels and weld the frame.

[Blwalker105]

Flynntuna, good eye! The Viperesque pic was just a 2D wish in a 3D space and include a door that had to open without interference. It does kick out a bit but not past the A-pillar at any point. It's actually a nice arc from most any angle; the white color makes it look really obtrusive but it's more subtle in person. I'm going to thin out the forward-most region to where it will almost disappear into the fender, then glass over the vinyl-ester filler. Hopefully, I can find some red lacquer to match the gelcoat for some better perspective.

[Tony Zullo]

Hi guys Tony@FFR

Just wanted to touch base on this issue..... The car has been set up so that the hard top can be removed and the roadster windshield can be installed. That's why the gap between the door and the fender exists. There are lots of variations to close the gap from pontoon/rear quarter movement and gaping of the doors and fender alignment. I'm going to post a couple pictures of our SEMA car and you can see that there is a gap there, and if the factory Subaru side mirror gets used it will cover that spot... Hope this helps Guys!

If you guys have problems please give us a call here and hopefully we can fix the problem before it gets out of hand. It's great to see you guys creative with your builds !!

Thanks !!! Tony Z

IMG_1965.JPGIMG_1968.JPG

[Frank818]

Tnx Tony for the explanation, makes more sense.

I definately don't have that gap on #181. But then the hardtop didn't exist yet.

Is it the picture or you trimmed downwards the top front portion of the door to better follow the lines?

[Tony Zullo]

Hi Frank

The picture you see of the black car door is a door that came right out of the mold untrimmed...

that's as long as the mold is.. Thanks again!!

[ben1272]

Here are some pictures of where my panels have come together. (kit #352). It is not as small of a gap as I would like, but it is not the worst either. I did pass through a couple of attempts at fitment that resulted in much worse gaps, but with a bit of push here pull there etc, it can be brought together pretty close.

Important to check the symmetry of the trimming on the windshield frame. Mine was not the same on both side, and could be best measured by taking measurements from the top of the side sills and also measuring from the top edge of the frame to the cut/trimmed edge. Clamp a staight edge along the top of the windshield so you have a comparable place to measure from on both sides of the car, and measure from the straightedge to the bottom of the A-pillar. Also make sure you have both sides bolted to the frame comparably, and the sweep back angle of the windshield set up properly per instruction (measurement to roll bar I think).

I have not yet looked to see the best place to add some fiberglass to close it further, but the two approaches you are considering dont look half bad. I would like to see some pictures of the options from further away. Hard to see what these extensions do to the lines of the car when viewed so close up! Thanks for posting your approach!

-Ben

[Frank818]

Ha, I see some differences here. My fenders are fitted a lot higher than yours, cuz the hood asked me to do it that way and also cuz I need to increase as much as I can the hood-windshield gap to fit my wiper arm.

Your fenders follow perfectly the lines of the A-pillar. Mines are out of whack on that line, so will probably be the hood.

Also my driver's door is 3/16" longer at the top than my passenger's. Here's how it turns out:

2016-10-26 16.10.36_1.jpg2016-10-26 17.32.16_1.jpg

[ben1272]

I have trimmed some material off my frame and fenders, always only a little at a time. I figure I can always put some material on if needed to make things tighter. Keeping all of the mounting brackets loose enough to adjust the parts is helpful. As others have said, start with securing all of the non-negotiable locations (like fender to side sail, fenders to nose insert, side sails to chassis (check how on-center your hubs are within wheel arches), and then play with what you have left. Mostly this seems to be the up/down and forward/back and angle of the windshield frame (check dimensions in manual), and how much spacer thickness you have on top fender screw points.

Good luck!

[flynntuna]

The angle of the windshield is critical only if you're using the soft top.

[ben1272]

True about the soft top. Even if you dont want to use the factory soft top it seemed to me a good idea to make my car compatible with it so in the future another owner would have the option of adding.....future owner could be me! Seemed worth considering at least.

[Blwalker105]

Thanks all!

I have pretty much followed the factory manual in setting the side sails, then the front fenders, then the nose, the hood, etc.. My car is perfectly level on a trolley (without wheels) and at least the center of the hubs indicate the wheels will be centered in their openings. Also, every part of the underside of the body from front to rear is within about 1/8" of being the same distance above the floor. My A-pillars are as far forward and down as possible as the door openings will allow (almost to their forward stops). I am still in the process of thinning and refining my mods so hopefully I can post some updated pics tomorrow.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Blwalker,
I was looking at your large door gaps. I brought the door out until I had a straight edge on the fender and the door. I have hardly trimmed any of the fiber glass yet. I was going to go back and do that after it was running. (That was 300 autocross runs ago and 2000 hot track miles ago)

My door gap looks much smaller than yours.

doors.jpg doors2.jpg

Bob

[redfogo]

Blwalker105 I think I know what the problem is with the tops and I think I have the same problem. Seems FFR cut the tops wrong. I have one shorter(bad side) and one longer edge(Show car side). Seems like somone just cut the tops uneven or the molding has an issue. MY drivers I can actually get a nice gap if i mess around long enough. My passenger side forget it the top was cut way to high so now I just have a large hole no matter what I do. I would have to move the fenders so far back to close it wheel wheels woudl be so bad lol.

Driver "good" Possible to adjust correct side
IMG_1037.JPGIMG_1038.JPG IMG_1039.JPG

Passengers side has a far larger gap and you can tell because you can see far more of the metal for the support bar on this side then the other. The easiest way to spot this is the curving point in the support arm has a notch in it. On the drivers side the notch is almost covered by fiber glass. The passenger side forget it you can see its far past the notch in the images below.
IMG_1041.JPG

Note: I'm still getting my body all set up but I am clearly going to need to solve this issue as well some how.

[07FIREBLADE]

I have the same problem with the passenger side. It doesn't matter. I compared my car with they're show car at the HBO show last April and they had the same problem. I talked to Tony who was there and he said all the tops come like this.

[Frank818]

My A-pillars are as far forward and down as possible as the door openings will allow (almost to their forward stops).

Mines are the exact opposite, as far backwards and up as possible.

IMG_1037.JPGIMG_1038.JPG IMG_1039.JPG

IMG_1041.JPG

Those gaps are HUGE. Take a look at my pix above (and I was able to reduce even more the passenger's side), are you sure you can't push back any more the fenders? Mines are further back and need to in order to align properly with the side sails, unless your side sails are further fwd than mines.

[Blwalker105]

Well, at least I'm not alone in this sad trek. As for Tony's saying saying "they all come like this", that's a poor excuse for FF not taking the time to design it right in the first place. I'm also not for a minute buying the idea that many people going to the expense and effort to fit the hardtop, either for the purchased coupe or as a retrofit for a convertable are a ever going to go through the hassle of removing it. That would mean they designed a product for maybe 20%, at best, of their intended market. Nope, bad execution, pure and simple.

[GoDadGo]

My son has been bugging me ever since we saw the 818 in Panama City Beach Florida that he wants to build an 818 after our MK-4 is done.
That won't be happening after seeing this panel fit thread.
Thanks for saving me a lot of time and money.
Looks like the MK-4 is their best product.

[brian b 36]

IT LOOKS LIKE YOUR NOSE IS TO FAR FORWARD MINE DOES NOT HAVE THAT PROBLUM AT ALLhttp://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=55667&d=1467492286 IF YOU HAD YOUR WINDSHIELD IN YOUR HOOD SHOULD LAY ON IT YOURS IS ABOUT 2 TO 3 INS FORWARD

[redfogo]

Mines are the exact opposite, as far backwards and up as possible.



Those gaps are HUGE. Take a look at my pix above (and I was able to reduce even more the passenger's side), are you sure you can't push back any more the fenders? Mines are further back and need to in order to align properly with the side sails, unless your side sails are further fwd than mines.

I do agree I know I can work a small bit more out but by no means will it be good enough. I would be okay with moving my side skirts back to maybe help but honestly the top fits perfect with the door jams and the upper door jam/ side skirt.

Also I'm not sure how everyone else is aligning but I'm aligning the body with the lower front extension arm mounts installed. I can't push the fenders back any further unless I trim the arms. So even if I adjust the skirts I need to trim the arms to even let me stretch the fenders back enough.

[Mechie3]

The roadster has a better fit because of the one piece body. Eliminate the junctions and you eliminate mismatch.

The real issue (IMO) stems from the basic design of that area. Generally, in any type of engineering product design, you try and minimize the number of pieces that come together at a single junction. The reason is because it works in CAD (everything works in CAD), but once you add in real life manufacturing tolerances problems start to arise. This is true for anything. Even taking two plates and putting standoffs in between. Each standoff is going to be +/- .005". If the plates are effectively perfectly rigid relative to the loads put on it then some standoffs will be tight and some will shuttle around. A good designer will minimize the number of standoffs to minimize mismatch.

The first 818 nose had problems because you had a hood, fender, bumper, headlight (and to some extend a headlight bucket) all trying to meet at the same point. If any one piece was smaller or larger than intended, it affected the fit of four other parts. The new front end has only three pieces that meet (fender, hood, insert) and much larger interfaces. The headlight itself now only touches one piece (fender). That was a very good decision for FFR and while parts overall still have issues (such as fender being too long), they fit together better.

The design of the door/windshield(A pillar)/fender/hood junction is just...odd. OEM's design thing a certain way and often that way (with most consumer cars) is to meet certain cost and manufacturing time targets without affecting quality. Look at almost any basic OEM car and you'll find the fender is usually the only thing touching the A pillar. The hood touches only the fenders, the door touches only the fender. There's only ever two things to line up. Everything is also flush so that it only has to align across a single curved surface as opposed to trying to line up multiple oblique surfaces (ie, the door curving inwards).

The problem with oblique surfaces is that any deviation in angle affects multiple planes. The problem is exacerbated when a majority of the pieces meeting up are pointy (fender is pointy, hood is pointy). Imagine taking 8 slices of pizza that make a whole pizza. Now trim one from crust to point such that it takes off 1/2". Now try to assemble the whole pizza. The piece is not only too narrow, but it's also too short. One trim made two issues. None of the points are big enough to cover the gap and shifting things around makes gaps elsewhere. Take a square pizza and make one piece 1/2" too short evenly. The piece is still long enough, it's just too narrow, but it's much easier to shift and fill the gap or simply trim the opposing piece by 1/2" to slide everything together.

Here is an excellent example. See how the hood touches only the fenders? The fender is the only thing touching the windhsield? The line on the front door follows directly up to the back side of the a pillar.


The WRX follows the same example. The fender flare is built fully into the fender instead of crossing multiple panels.


Sports cars do deviate from the example above, but they also cost more (for many reasons). Take this 370Z. It breaks the rules a little bit but it still retains the flush surfaces and minimizes the number of pieces that touch each other by extending the bottom edge of the A pillar as opposed to having the hood come back and meet.



This porsche has a similar curve to the front door as the 818. The door itself is still flush with the outer surface of the fender and the top of the fender curves back and almost is flush with the Apillar. The a pillar is still inboard of the fender and door to hide the junction (vs being on top). The porsche is also a much more expensive car so they can spend more time on assembly without negatively affecting profit since the price is much higher to begin with to cover the cost of more custom fitting.

[Blwalker105]

Very insightful and informative Craig. I may have to eat just a little crow shortly, when I can post some pics.

[carbon fiber]

Just my 2 cents, they should have used a different hinge system/panel design where the door and fender could meet flush like a production car. To me what kills the whole junction of the a-pillar/fender/door is the rounded front of the door making for a poor looking fit. Look at the Porsche in the previous comment by mechie3, the fender and door blend perfectly and the a-pillar just blends/tucks behind the line created by the body. Simple and clean.

[GoDadGo]

GoDadGo's Stupid Question:

Did the earlier front end fit better that the current front end?

[Maximus]

Well, maybe the Gen2 will address these issues in a couple years. I am still planning on an 818, but am happy to wait for some revisions based off all you brave souls that took on Gen1.

[RM1SepEx]

I might be the least likely person to comment in support of FFR here but:

BOTH front ends can/will fit better than that. They are indeed not symmetrical but you can get it to line up and look pretty good w/o drastic measures. I'm as disappointed as you are being that if designed and MFG CADCAM they should indeed mirror side by side and they don't. It is also not unusual for use to find that the slotted adjustment areas are not adequate, you need to do some bending, grinding, spacer mfg, etc to get it together correctly. Don't try to get it to measure perfectly side to side, frustration goes up, productivity goes down and beer consumption grows. (Experience talking) Make it look good, I'm still not happy but I have people pulling in each and every time I stop somewhere to ask questions and take pictures.

My issue is the unfilled areas and voids. 2200 road miles and voids just keep popping. I'm so glad I didn't throw $$$$ at paint as it would be ruined by now.

[Frank818]

Well, at least I'm not alone in this sad trek.

Well, no matter what Tony said or anyone has done on their car, I managed to remove the gap on my passenger's side (driver has no gap). So it must be possible. And as you can see, my fender is far from being close to the windshield surround, like you.


2016-10-29 14.24.33_1.jpg

[redfogo]

Well, no matter what Tony said or anyone has done on their car, I managed to remove the gap on my passenger's side (driver has no gap). So it must be possible. And as you can see, my fender is far from being close to the windshield surround, like you.


2016-10-29 14.24.33_1.jpg

Frank I think the issue is just for us coupe guys? The 818s looks to have long enough covers along the frame.

[Frank818]

That's what I sort of think now, as everything on this thread about gap issues seems to be on the coupe, even Tony mentioned about the coupe.

Or maybe the S and C built by FFR since the C is available.

[Blwalker105]

OK, so after reading everyone's input, I decided to go back to the basics and see if maybe I hadn't overlooked anything. Turns out I did, and a few little things created problems that got magnified down the line.

First, I rechecked the levelness of the car front-to-rear. It was a little off (bubble touching the line) with the rear being a little low. When I raised it to level, my nose was now a bit lower than the rest of the car. I also realized that after fitting each front fender I had allowed both forward attach brackets to rest on their lowermost position in their adjustment slots. I guess it was just easier to have a reference point while I fitted the black plastic center section of the nose, but after I did, I never thought to raise it at all. This process combined to pull the rear of the fender-to-sidesail vertical piece up off the side sail about 0.2" Attachment 60290. This got me to wondering how far back the top of that area, where I had my large gaps, would be if I pulled the fenders up as far as they would go in the front. Long story, short, by doing this, I was able to move the upper, rear part of the fender almost 3/4" rearward.

Attachment 60295 Attachment 60296

I then hacked off my 'glassed up additions to see what things would look like. After much pulling, cursing, re-drilling attachment holes and other notable efforts, the gaps have gone down from "atrocious" to merely "bad". My plan now is to trim down the saved additions and glass them onto the rear of the fenders to cover the remaining areas.

The important thing I took from this experience is that the front end has to be treated like an entity and the order of fitment is extremely important. If I had to do it over again, I would attach the rear of the fenders to the side sails, then loosely hang the fenders (do not affix the attach brackets to the fenders yet at any location) and get the plastic center section attached first. Then, raise the front attach brackets to their highest position or close to it (hopefully, this will help with ground clearance down the line). Next, get two floor jacks and raise the undersides of the fender front corners to where they are just touching the outer portion of the attach brackets, leaving it loose enough that you can maneuver the fenders fore and aft with a little effort. Now, get a helper and lay the hood in place and position the rear, upper corners of the fenders. You will be surprised how much you can tweak things, sometimes as much as 3/4" to move things in position. Mark where your best fitment areas are and then start permanently attaching the fenders to the various brackets with hardware. Be very mindful of centering the entire nose right-to-left and getting your wheel wells centered to your hub flanges or wheels. I saved attaching the underside of the front fender corners to the attach brackets till last cause I had to really pull the driver's side forward to make up for the fenders being different lengths.

The rear areas of my fender-to-sidesail junction are still slightly elevated, but there is not enough adjustment built into the fender attach bracket slots to allow me to close my triangular gaps any more, and I don't think I want the nose to be raised any further (visual reasons) so I will deal with what I have right now.

[Mechie3]

Is your front end support level with the bottom of the frame? I couldn't get mine to be level.

[UnhipPopano]

Is the adjustment of the front to be level with the bottom always the best way, or for street use, would it be better to rake it up a couple of degrees? If you look at the images in #26, this is the norm.

[Mechie3]

Instructions say make it level. Mine ran out of adjustment when it was still over an inch too high. The rake could simply be because people tend to park too close to curbs and or dodging road debris. I'm always amused by how many people part by stopping when the front tires hit the curb.

[wleehendrick]

The rake could simply be because people tend to park too close to curbs and or dodging road debris. I'm always amused by how many people part by stopping when the front tires hit the curb.

Exactly... and this has led to the proliferation of those damn parking stops many lots have, several feet back from the curb or end of the spot, to keep those idiots from overhanging the sidewalk. These are typically 4-5" high, tall enough to damage a splitter/airdam. Our cars are low enough that we have to pay close attention to how close we can pull in, and have the rear potentially hang further out, just because soccer-mom/dads don't know where the limits of their massive vehicle are! </rant>

rubber-parking-stop-with-reflective-tape-6-foot-745.jpg

[redfogo]

Instructions say make it level. Mine ran out of adjustment when it was still over an inch too high. The rake could simply be because people tend to park too close to curbs and or dodging road debris. I'm always amused by how many people part by stopping when the front tires hit the curb.

I am also at 1in. Planning to move it up a few more just to see if I can move my gap any more.