818 Project Updates From Dave

[305mouse]

Just an FYI to anyone starting to look at donor cars. 02-03 5mt gears were like glass. 04-05 better and 06-07 were better still. The weight savings is going to be a huge difference for this car. I don't think 90% of the builders would want/need lager calipers and rotors. A FMIC might be nice, but the piping would be too long I'm sure to make it worth it. I'm just really looking forward to these models and how Dave's vision here is gonna look.

[jimgood]

Just an FYI to anyone starting to look at donor cars. 02-03 5mt gears were like glass. 04-05 better and 06-07 were better still. The weight savings is going to be a huge difference for this car.

See? There you go again. "gears were like glass" is BS. Show me a WRX that broke gears and I'll show you a dork with a built motor that dropped the clutch at 5000 rpm from a standstill.

I drove a '02 WRX with the stock transmission to 140k miles doing 5 - 8 track days a year, numerous RallyX's and brutal daily driving. I never replaced a single component in the drivetrain; not even the clutch.

[thebeerbaron]

See? There you go again. "gears were like glass" is BS. Show me a WRX that broke gears and I'll show you a dork with a built motor that dropped the clutch at 5000 rpm from a standstill.

I drove a '02 WRX with the stock transmission to 140k miles doing 5 - 8 track days a year, numerous RallyX's and brutal daily driving. I never replaced a single component in the drivetrain; not even the clutch.

I completely agree with you. But to play Devil's advocate, let's look at it in these terms:

If you go to buy a donor and are looking at an 02-03, take a very good look at the transmission and be ready to fix/replace it if it is making unpleasant noises...

Better?

[jimgood]

I completely agree with you. But to play Devil's advocate, let's look at it in these terms:

If you go to buy a donor and are looking at an 02-03, take a very good look at the transmission and be ready to fix/replace it if it is making unpleasant noises...

Better?

Sure, but the same caution applies to any donor. I'm just trying to bring sanity to the internet-propagated, mythical glass tranny.

[thebeerbaron]

Sure, but the same caution applies to any donor. I'm just trying to bring sanity to the internet-propagated, mythical glass tranny.

I think you've done that. What I'm looking for is some acknowledgement that when buying a donor this is a red-flag item, not a "I can pour in some miracle oil and be OK" item. To first time donor buyers talking to a knowledgeable and deceitful seller, this might not be obvious.

[StatGSR]

Also, you mentioned the base model would be with the Impreza. Would we be able to use a WRX or STI engine with the base model? Only change would be need for cooling of the intercooler and plumbing for the exhaust with the turbo. Not sure if the base bodywork would have vents or a scoop or anything do direct air to the intercooler.

I have read all the threads for the 818, I know the Subies quite well.

Clearly you haven't read all the threads and information available about the 818 or else you would be asking if a wrx engine was going to work in the "base model" 818.... the plan since day 1 was that this would be based on a wrx, using a turbo engine, hell even the pictures from the unvail clearly show a wrx engine in the chassis....

[305mouse]

Clearly you haven't read all the threads and information available about the 818 or else you would be asking if a wrx engine was going to work in the "base model" 818.... the plan since day 1 was that this would be based on a wrx, using a turbo engine, hell even the pictures from the unvail clearly show a wrx engine in the chassis....

I believe that was before Dave announced that there would be three versions. He stated the first using an impreza, the second the with the whole VW tdi running gear and the third with the WRX. The first would be the $9,900 priced one and the others are more expensive. Again we'll just have to wait for the models.

As for my comment on the 02-03 5mt, I just want to let people who might not know the car all that well, be aware of a possible issue. I don't know about you, but I don't know how many people would keep eveything stock as they swap it over. Someone might do a turbo swap. How about just a tune with the ecu? These are contributing factors. Here are two good reads on the NASIOC site in regards to transmissions. The first even has all the gear ratio info and a ton more. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=665334 and http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=986710

[305mouse]

Also, I admit my use of the term glass to describe the 02-03 5mt is a bit overkill. Some 03 5mt's received thicker gears, from 04 on they all had thicker gears.

[Flamshackle]

couple of things you guys might find helpful

This Subaru legacy GT (my daily ride ) STANDARD puts out 280HP (its a JDM for those who know the USDM version was not as grunty). Take note of the tiny size of the air intake for the intercooler.

so...


1) A well designed and positioned scoop or duct doesn't NEED to be big (READ, UGLY) to get good amounts of flow.

duct.jpg

2) If you are chasing big power and fast lap times you can buy "unbreakable" gear sets from Australia for the Subaru 5MT for around $5000 (I think that a standard late model 5MT will be fine for 95% of 818 Applications)

http://mrtperformance.com.au/perform...able-gear-sets

[thebeerbaron]

How does your uber Legacy do on the track? How many hot laps can you put down before your intercooler hear soaks?

These are legitimate questions, not smart mouthing.

[Flamshackle]

good question re track use. it performs well when moving, its the static traffic senario where it heat soaks real bad.

For the track you really would want the WRX STI turbo, intercooler settup. its a cheap upgrade in the scheme of things.

For my 818 I will custom mount a custom cooler for best flow and heat exchange so it wont matter how they plan on getting air back there.

Like i said its not the size of the intake or ducting but flow that matters

[riptide motorsport]

Flamshackle.......does that mean anything? Interesting sounding name........Flamshackle, sounds like it could mean a number of diferent things, ranging from good to bad!

[Flamshackle]

Flamshackle.......does that mean anything? Interesting sounding name........Flamshackle, sounds like it could mean a number of diferent things, ranging from good to bad!

Hahaha...

Its actually the name of the bed time story hero I made up for one of my rug rats "Fluppety Flamshackle" You know the sort, he goes on wild adventures and races all the coolest cars against the police... My son cant get enough of Fluppety. I guess in his mind the police are the fastest cars in the world so its a mighty feat for the Flamshackle to win... We often watch UTube clips of cars racing then I tell the stories...

Keeps me young!

[Someday I Suppose]

On the versions of cars, I won't try to say I know what Dave is thinking or put words into his mouth, but based on what I have seen with other kits, what makes sense to me is that the 818 is going to be based on an impreza / wrx donor. If you use one of those as a donor, between that and the kit you should have about everything needed to put the kit together, again this is my impression based on what I have read.

The other engine varients, I assume are still going to use the Sube suspension components, and you would swap in the TDI or Ford driveline. I expect the chasis to be the same except for different engine mounts, as the roadster is now. It may also very well be that Factory Five will come out with tubular arms for the 818 just as they have for the other kits, that would help someone who wanted to do a differnt driveline go 'non-donor' or maybe even a complete kit offered by FFR.

Point being that until we see the packages offered we don't know for sure what they are, but based on what has been done in the past I expect that there will be more then one way to build an 818, and that is part of the fun.

-Scott

[Horhay]

How does your uber Legacy do on the track? How many hot laps can you put down before your intercooler hear soaks?

These are legitimate questions, not smart mouthing.

The intercooler will not likely heat soak during lapping. Autocross and around town are different scenarios, but on the track or freeway you'll have plenty of airflow to keep the IC cool.

[thebeerbaron]

The intercooler will not likely heat soak during lapping. Autocross and around town are different scenarios, but on the track or freeway you'll have plenty of airflow to keep the IC cool.

I think of track days as being constant-boost scenarios, thus likely to heat up the intercooler quite a bit. Only if airflow is sufficient will it keep the intercooler cool.

Anything less than track (or the right autocross scenario) and the intercooler will have long periods of no boost, allowing insufficient airflow to do "catch up" cooling of the intercooler.

Now, mounting the intercooler on top of the engine may introduce a different kind of heat soak, but I haven't got much of an idea of how extreme that could be...

[Cooluser23]

Dave, could you do an update, and bring this thread back to topic?

[AZJoker]

Looking at that pic the expression that comes to mind is "Slicker than puppy doo"

Kind of late to the party but is this the design because HOT #$&&^#&^(.)(.)#*() !!!!!!

[AZJoker]

The cool thing about Solidworks is that you can do flow analysis/wind tunnel simulation and a host of other things (we've done rigidity chassis stuff already). Confirming the data in the real world is probably best done when the car is full size and this is SUPER important if MPG design is the one up (the track car also).

Jim is going to be REALLY busy for the next three weeks with a Spec race at Mid-Ohio next weekend and another race event at VIR the following weekend. The model-making is going full speed ahead, so we'll report on that first. In the meantime I'll be struggling to get the data/updates to our website as well as the gallery of winners maybe next week (but Mad Dog, our web guru is out til thursday).


My personal favorite design, but keep in mind that this is a collaborative process, when I want the answer, I'll give it to you... kidding. In all seriousness, the 818 process has been amazingly collaborative in the right places and very directive in others where merited. I believe that the success of the car will be that synthesis of our 15+ years of chassis-building/performance skills and the group collaboration of talented community individuals, strong partner companies, and the honest feedback of the FFR race and car-building community (NOT the general public). You guys here are the community of enthusiasts along with the group at GRM and other more dedicated user forums and groups. The export requirements will require those community assets as well and we've been working on that line in anticipation.

This the pic I was refer'n to.... it is (.)(.) 's

[riptide motorsport]

yes it is!!!

[Niburu]

there is a vast consensus on that car being one sexy catfish
it's the one I want

[prematureapex]

Just an FYI to anyone starting to look at donor cars. 02-03 5mt gears were like glass. 04-05 better and 06-07 were better still. The weight savings is going to be a huge difference for this car. I don't think 90% of the builders would want/need lager calipers and rotors. A FMIC might be nice, but the piping would be too long I'm sure to make it worth it. I'm just really looking forward to these models and how Dave's vision here is gonna look.

Don't bring long-dispelled nasioc myth here. These things just don't up and break gears, not by a long-shot. Any in-depth searching on nasioc will bare that out.

Much of the early 02 tranny failures were do to the HUGE surge of guys drag racing them, or pro-soloing, not slipping the clutch properly, and merely side-stepping the clutch. 02-03 boxes are plenty strong without drop-clutch launches. I've had an 02 and 2 03s, with huundreds of thousands of mile on them. All with tons of standing start autox and track days, all with zero problems. By-in-large, that is true for the vast majority of 02/03 owners.

Further, the RA-width gears (wider gears) were introduced in 03.5, rather than 04.

Also, you'll actually find more than a few 06+ tranny failures when you start to increase power levels. That's a TORQUEY motor when you throw more boost at it. It's been known to break third gear mid-pull!

Anway, with no awd, I can't see it being an issue, at all.

[Silvertop]

there is a vast consensus on that car being one sexy catfish
it's the one I want

Me, too! Only I'll take mine in a Targa-top street version.

[crackedcornish]

Me, too! Only I'll take mine in a Targa-top street version.

in Subaru Blue (or SuBlueru as I will call it ) please...

[stephen]

I'd buy it !

- Stephen

[305mouse]

I don't want to take this off topic more than it already is. I did post more info with links, people can do their own research. Just waiting for Dave to post some news, a photo, anything really. All I hope is one version looks like the 818-R, I know it's a lot of people's favorite.

[Gollum]

I really don't get the concern about the tranny. Guys that are breaking trannies are most likely doing it in high horsepower, WRXs or STis doing AWD drag launches. There will be a huge difference in the amount of driveline shock one can develop in one of those 3100 lb cars with AWD vs the 1800 lb RWD 818.

The reason I originally started a thread on this topic was because I've heard several stories of people breaking them MID GEAR, not at launches. There's a very good probability that the lower weight won't help what's breaking. You might say "but it'll have lower weight, thus less stress" well yes, when it comes to moment of inertia stress. But that mass will be accelerating faster, thus load is load and HP in = work out. If a tranny manufacture gives a torque rating for a transmission, you can fudge it with a lighter car. But if there's a HP limitation, then it's best to not go too far past.

I also find it kind of humorous that the few defending the strength of the earlier trannys aren't telling us how much power they were putting to the wheels. I do believe the frailty of this tranny is a bit overblown, but that said I do think there are facts people need to look at, and tranny blowing HP shows up sooner than you might think and is a serious hurtle in the pursuit of speed.

/Thread jack over

But we can continue this topic elsewhere. :-D

[prematureapex]

The reason I originally started a thread on this topic was because I've heard several stories of people breaking them MID GEAR, not at launches. There's a very good probability that the lower weight won't help what's breaking. You might say "but it'll have lower weight, thus less stress" well yes, when it comes to moment of inertia stress. But that mass will be accelerating faster, thus load is load and HP in = work out. If a tranny manufacture gives a torque rating for a transmission, you can fudge it with a lighter car. But if there's a HP limitation, then it's best to not go too far past.

I also find it kind of humorous that the few defending the strength of the earlier trannys aren't telling us how much power they were putting to the wheels. I do believe the frailty of this tranny is a bit overblown, but that said I do think there are facts people need to look at, and tranny blowing HP shows up sooner than you might think and is a serious hurtle in the pursuit of speed.

/Thread jack over

But we can continue this topic elsewhere. :-D

More typically seen with the 06+ 2.5l. Normally 3rd gear, mid-pull on a modified motor, but we've seen it on motors with only mild bolt-ons. The 2.5l packs a mid-range punch when you start feeding boost to it, even on the stock turbo.

The 2.0l cars have been breaking 1st gear mostly, with some 2nd gear problems, but again, all shock loading from hard shifting into 2nd, or launching from first. Also, there have clutch-engaged, mid pull failures, but they appear to all be on cars where the owner's have admitted to launching the car hard during its life. Enough stress on the gears, and they let go.

My cars have varied from 230 whp to about 280-290 whp.





Anyway, the most important point here is that this car is 2wd. That's half the traction. Gear strength will simply not be an issue.

[Silvertop]

I don't want to take this off topic more than it already is. I did post more info with links, people can do their own research. Just waiting for Dave to post some news, a photo, anything really. All I hope is one version looks like the 818-R, I know it's a lot of people's favorite.

I think it's OK to run a little off-topic on this thread. As you noted, we are really just waiting for Dave, passing the time here, and having a little fun in the process.

305Mouse, I believe that it is highly likely that the 818-R will surface as one of the available choices, particularly since Dave himself appears to very excited about it. Those of us that are also hoping for a street version of this design are basically doing a little lobbying here. We know that Dave visits this thread often. It IS after all, HIS thread.

Crackedcornish and Stephen, if it turns out that I can't have my white one due to potential issues with white gel-coats, I'd ALSO be pleased to write a check for one in SuBlueru.

[StatGSR]

I'd ALSO be pleased to write a check for one in SuBlueru.

It's World Rally Blue guys, WRB for short...

[Silvertop]

It's World Rally Blue guys, WRB for short...

Thanks for straightening that out.

Whatever we call it, it would be an excellent choice for one of the colors -- along with white, if it can be done without QAQC issues.

[AZJoker]

in Subaru Blue (or SuBlueru as I will call it ) please...

I wonder how it looked if they tweaked the front fender a little like the gen 1 Viper?????

[AZJoker]

I meant like how the door on the Gen 1 Viper came into/underneath.

[AZJoker]

Like this

[AZJoker]

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=first...0&tx=136&ty=29

[olpro]

A while back there were a bunch of posts putting down the contest winning design. Frankly a lot of us were getting tired of the whining and complaints about that design, especially considering the fact that the actual selection for production was still pending – awaiting the results of clay model development.
Frankly, it is just as IRRITATING to see the current promotion of (some people’s) favorite entry. For heaven’s sake, grow up, you are not still in high school (at least I don't think so).
I will not tell you to stop it… I just want to point out how JUVENILE you look when you do this. Why don’t you wait until this grinds through its inevitable selection process, with the clay model development, etc. to see which designs actually hold up instead of campaigning like preteen school girls for your fav?

[305mouse]

I will not tell you to stop it… I just want to point out how JUVENILE you look when you do this....... instead of campaigning like preteen school girls for your fav?

Where do I text my vote to? J/K

[NicksPapaw]

I don't want to grow up! If I do, then I must become responsible and all that junk. If I actually become responsible, I would have to quit spending money like a drunken sailor on completely irresponsible hobbies like building cars.

[kach22i]

A while back there were a bunch of posts putting down the contest winning design. Frankly a lot of us were getting tired of the whining and complaints about that design, especially considering the fact that the actual selection for production was still pending – awaiting the results of clay model development.
Frankly, it is just as IRRITATING to see the current promotion of (some people’s) favorite entry. For heaven’s sake, grow up, you are not still in high school (at least I don't think so).
I will not tell you to stop it… I just want to point out how JUVENILE you look when you do this. Why don’t you wait until this grinds through its inevitable selection process, with the clay model development, etc. to see which designs actually hold up instead of campaigning like preteen school girls for your fav?

I agree 100%

Also knowing that Dave Smith said there are 50 out of the +700 designs which may be worthy of building (paraphrasing here), and only a small fraction have been posted (mysteriously +95% of the ones they have posted have been posted before by the entrants), well - it's just hard to take the attitude of "one design is better than all the others", when we have not seen the others.

That's my run on sentence or rant and rave.

[blueafro]

It's World Rally Blue guys, WRB for short...

It's actually State Express 555 (cigarettes) blue.