818 Project Updates From Dave

[Niburu]

It is the most successful manufacturer by far in the history of international sports car racing.

thats because the Miata hasn't been around for 60 years.....yet

[Twinspool]

thats because the Miata hasn't been around for 60 years.....yet

Miata on the Mulsanne straight? Lol!

[thebeerbaron]

Miata on the Mulsanne straight? Lol!

They've been to some strange places...



info

[Ray]

...

My personal favorite design,

Oh yeah, I'd build that!!!!!

Ray

[D2W]

My two cents, the Boxer engine is superior for momentum type racing, Porsche has proven this time and time again.

http://press.porsche.com/motorsport/

I think porsche has been successful because the engines are a great design that were put together better hence much more reliable, and no other manufacturer has had as much involvement in sports car racing for the last 57 years. Any design advantages that the boxer engine has in a low cog has got to be negated by the fundamentally flawed chassis design. However, as was stated above most problems can be solved by properly setting up the chassis and having the right driver.

[kach22i]

I think porsche .........fundamentally flawed chassis design.

We are talking about the 911 of course, and yes it's a great car in spite of the rear engine, not because of it.

[bobzdar]

Thats what I wanted to hear Dave. I would want the car to be streetable but more performance oriented than a traditional street car, which I'm sure any track model that you introduced would be. As long as I know it still intends to be registerable then that likely conforms to what I'd be looked for. I don't want a daily driver but rather a weekend fun car.

As far as handing out information, at this point in time you have the interest of a few people but the real interest will be generated when the official designs are completed. The time you spend on the 818 I feel at this point is best spent just nailing down proper designs rather than giving out bits and pieces in the meantime just to keep us impatient folks salivating.

It'll be barely perceptible, but when building a performance vehicle, you don't leave anything on the table. If going for a 4 cylinder engine and a boxer is readily available, why wouldn't you use it? Same as moving a battery from high up at the very end of the car to low down near the center. That single change will be barely perceptible, but when you make 7 or 8 design decisions in that vein, they all add up making a notiecable difference. If you're expecting to know how much laptime a boxer vs. an I4 will gain you everything else the same, nobody is really going to have that. It's one design decision among many.

[Kwizatz-haderah]

I'm excited

[Gollum]

I'm excited

But are you a bene-gesserit puppet?

[16g-95gsx]

It'll be barely perceptible, but when building a performance vehicle, you don't leave anything on the table. If going for a 4 cylinder engine and a boxer is readily available, why wouldn't you use it? Same as moving a battery from high up at the very end of the car to low down near the center. That single change will be barely perceptible, but when you make 7 or 8 design decisions in that vein, they all add up making a notiecable difference. If you're expecting to know how much laptime a boxer vs. an I4 will gain you everything else the same, nobody is really going to have that. It's one design decision among many.

Because from my own personal opinion I am not entirely sold that the boxer engine IS the ideal engine for this application. I'm not sold that the lower CG is enough to make is more desirable vs other platforms other than the fact it will be a bolt-in vs custom work. Again, I don't really care, it will be what it is and I will be content and consider modifying mine to what I want anyway just like the next guy. I simply am stating my own thoughts.

[Movieman]

HMM, move the driver compartment forward a few inches and get room for a small block ford V8?
Only 1/2 serious here..

[kach22i]

HMM, move the driver compartment forward a few inches and get room for a small block ford V8?
Only 1/2 serious here..

A fair question.

I used a human figure of 6'-0" tall, and the same FFR eye level. I do not know if a donor Subie's steering column now fits, or would fit moving the driver up.

Based on my own 1977 Porsche 911 and my buddies 1981 Ferrari 308-GTS, both with "pinched feet" (wheel well) compared to typical front engined cars, I say we might be able to advance the driver's seating position 3" to 4" max. That is just a guess, and I do not think standards of +30 years ago apply to todays cars, people are bigger, fatter and demand more leg room.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...rial%20Design/

[Silvertop]

But are you a bene-gesserit puppet?

Perhaps a member of the Spacing Guild. Advantage: He won't need an engine. Just need to keep a nice supply of Spice -- then use it to fold space. Should be crazy fast............

[Movieman]

A fair question.

I used a human figure of 6'-0" tall, and the same FFR eye level. I do not know if a donor Subie's steering column now fits, or would fit moving the driver up.

Based on my own 1977 Porsche 911 and my buddies 1981 Ferrari 308-GTS, both with "pinched feet" (wheel well) compared to typical front engined cars, I say we might be able to advance the driver's seating position 3" to 4" max. That is just a guess, and I do not think standards of +30 years ago apply to todays cars, people are bigger, fatter and demand more leg room.

Thanks for not flaming me to hell and back.
I just thought, maybe because of my age,59, and absolutely no knowledge of Subaru engines performance, that in this slick looking design a small midengined V8 even in very mild tune would make for a beast.
Heck, even with something as out of date as an old 289/271HP Ford V8 in that setup would scare the shorts off of most drivers.
Like I said, just my thoughts and I do know I'm way off the fringe of what the rest here think.

[kach22i]

The GTM forum is here:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/forum...4-GTM-Supercar

Might want to check it out, it's a slick ride (V8's fit).

If you want power with a short range, for a short time, I'm guessing electric is the way to go. 4- hub drive units of about 100 hp each otta do it.

[Movieman]

The GTM forum is here:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/forum...4-GTM-Supercar

Might want to check it out, it's a slick ride (V8's fit).

I hear ya and can read between the lines..
As to the GTM, agreed, very slick but too rich for my blood.

[Silvertop]

............Heck, even with something as out of date as an old 289/271HP Ford V8 in that setup would scare the shorts off of most drivers.........

It would indeed! But keep in mind that a stock 2.0 WRX with a few bolt-ons and a moderate ECU tune will be cranking out that kind of scary-shorts power too .............

It's OK to be off on the fringe. Everybody has their own idea about their ideal power plant. At the end of the day, most will opt to build with the components FFR has in mind. But some will not, and that's OK too. And this forum is the perfect place for discussion of those other possibilities.

[Gollum]

Thanks for not flaming me to hell and back.
I just thought, maybe because of my age,59, and absolutely no knowledge of Subaru engines performance, that in this slick looking design a small midengined V8 even in very mild tune would make for a beast.
Heck, even with something as out of date as an old 289/271HP Ford V8 in that setup would scare the shorts off of most drivers.
Like I said, just my thoughts and I do know I'm way off the fringe of what the rest here think.

I'm sure the Hartley V8 would fit. It's 3 liters and makes over 400hp. It's extremely compact and takes up less space than most 4 cylinders. It's certainly much shorter than the subaru flat 4 is wide, so mounting it transversely in the 818 shouldn't be a problem.

But you'd be on your own when it comes to:
Wiring
Mounts
Transmission
Axles
Everything else that goes along with engine swaps

Oh, and the price for all that awesomeness is only around $30k. But you'd have the most amazing 818 around I'm sure.

http://www.h1v8.com/page/page/1562068.htm

Because from my own personal opinion I am not entirely sold that the boxer engine IS the ideal engine for this application. I'm not sold that the lower CG is enough to make is more desirable vs other platforms other than the fact it will be a bolt-in vs custom work. Again, I don't really care, it will be what it is and I will be content and consider modifying mine to what I want anyway just like the next guy. I simply am stating my own thoughts.

I haven't seen it stated from anyone at FFR that the low CG is why this engine was chosen. I personally feel (read, this is my opinion) that the low CG is very little reason at all to choose this engine, as a compact V6 gets pretty darn close in CG and can weigh in close to 350 pounds. Plus that similar V6 would have more displacement to work with as well.

But I DO think there's a very good reason to choose the subie engine, and here's the two biggest reasons I can think of.

1. Length. It's probably the shortest engine readily available. It's short length helps keep the overall length of the vehicle down, and every inch matters when you're shooting for a low target weight. I know the 818 isn't the shortest wheel base car in the wolrd, far from. But FFR is seeming to promise that it'll be much roomier than any mid engine car near it's wheel base.

2. Power for Price when considering availability. You'll have a hard time finding a more readily available motor that makes more reliable power. The fact so many came turbocharged is a great thing for us. It means finding an engine that will easily make 250+ crank HP isn't hard and won't break the bank. And most of the other engines I can think of that are super compact and will make that kind of power aren't exactly cheap. The closest contender would be a transverse nissan VQ35DE as they can make 300hp pretty easily. That being said though, most donor cars have automatics, and they wouldn't make great donor cars when all the other parts are factored in.

The reality ~ Donor cars need to already be performance minded. Look at the donor cars FFR has used thus far. I honestly can't think of a better donor car than a WRX for their current goals for the 818, and I'm not one to speak from bias. I'm not exactly partial to subaru anyways, I just have experience with them.

[Oppenheimer]

Of course, using a transverse mount donor means engine 'length' isn't the factor in vehicle length, engine 'width' would be. But then you lose what I'd consider one of the most important advantages to choosing the Subie drivetrain, the symmetrical layout.

To meet the goals of short yet symmetrical drivetrain, power-weight (+ aftermarket support, tuner knowledge-base), drivetrain interchangeability, donor availability (worldwide), plus other stuff Gollum mentioned, I can't see how anything competes with the drivetrain they chose. And as Gollum pointed out, they weren't just choosing a drivetrain, they were choosing the whole donor.

Oh, its also a flat boxer engine with (at least) marginal cg advantages.

[PhyrraM]

Don't forget that as this car matures and more buyers with different goals start to look at options, the fact that the EJ series of engines have a very high degree of diversification and interchangability will likely be HUGE.

If you include all the world markets, the EJ series has displacments of 1.6 to 2.5 liters OEM and almost 3.0 liters aftermarket. The bellhousings have only had 2 versions, and those are even interchangeble with 1 minor mod. The OEM HP ranges from about 100HP to 305HP, and the aftermarket takes off from there.

There are 5 and 6 speed manual tranmissions available and 4, 5 and CVT automatics. (remember- down the road, as the 818 matures) For utmost bargin builds, the 5 speed manual and the 4 speed automatic can be found in OEM 2WD forms, bypassing the need for conversion kits.

The basic suspension design is unchanged from 1989-2007, leaving an exceptionally wide donor base.

If the OEM kuckles/hubs are repurposed to the 818 there are at least 5 front and 5 rear brake options from ultra light to overbuilt. All of them bolt-on interchangable. All of them MORE than adequate for an 1800 pound car.

The steering columns are all similiar, as are the seats. The dashboards all have the same basic structure and mounts. Folks have taken a 2006 STI dash and installed (with *some* fabricating) in a 1991 Legacy - That's pretty good given the year and tech difference.

While many car manufactures use common parts and design theories across model lines, you would be hard pressed to find one who did as much as Subaru did for as long a period of time. Volkwagen from the 50s to the 70s is the only one that springs to mind......

[Gollum]

Oh, its also a flat boxer engine with (at least) marginal cg advantages.

Not that I want to start an argument, and you two (oppen & phyrram) are bringing up great points that I agree with, but I'd love for someone to do some hard data on the CG of the subaru boxter engine, and figure out the height it sits at, relative to the ground, in a OEM WRX/STI or whatever you'd like.

Only reason I bring it up, is that though when you have the flat 4 on an engine stand you can see it has a very flat design which leaves very little material up high, when looking at the total package once installed it's probably one of the highest sitting crankshafts I've ever seen in a sports car.

My only point is that I've seen countless engine swaps in which mounts and engine placement were drawn up from scratch. I'm from the Z community and have seen everything from Jag 12's to american turbo 4 cylinders installed in them. Mounting height is as important as CG in a car. I can take a production L6 datsun engine which came in my Z, and by doing some basic engine bay work get the engine a full 3" back, and about 1" lower without worry about scraping the pan. Moving that roughly 400 pound mass makes a big difference (in the grand sceme of things, it's no magic bullet for handling).

That said I've seen lots of pictures of subie engines placed in other cars, sandrails, what have you, and their install height just seems to be really high. I know the intake still sits extremely low, so I'm not assuming that it's a BAD design. I just wonder how much CG gets overblown on the flat 4 engine. Obviously if you paired the motor with a smaller flywheel and a dry sump setup the motor could be dropped, but that's also a lot of money to spend on a few extra inches.

To get an idea of what I'm talking about, this pic kind of shows it.
WRX041.JPG

It's hard to see from the angle, but the crank shaft seems to be a little higher than the centerline of the wheel, which puts it at least 14+ inches off the ground, if not closer to around 16-18". Not exactly a low slung motor.

So that's my .02 cents. Again, I'm not saying the CG is probably "bad". I'd just like better data before claiming it's "oh so much better than other motors".

[Ks2]

well the subaru engine is available all over the world, from Europe to Africa all over, there isn't alot of places you can't find them and given the fact that they are like legoes you could potentially put most any Subaru 4cyclinder engine in there (with supporting parts of course) from the older legacies/imprezas to the newer STI's everyone knows about subaru since they race the things just about everywhere oh and i am sure someone will find a way to make the H6 work as well which means even more potential donors

in short the idea is to make a car they can sell anywhere in the world and that is more than just something with a big American V8 that only goes fast in a straight line and that people in europe and else where either don't want and/or cant find parts for.

[riptide motorsport]

I love these comversations...............I'm gaining a wealth of knowledge., thanks Steven

[Dave Smith]

Again, its difficult to get thru all the new information. Here is a status report of sorts on the project. First of all I love the alt engine discussion as this car is designed to be a capable platform for more than one application (powertrain). Today I am going to review the 818 concept 1/4 scale model that RISD (Rhode Island School of Design) is working on. It looks like we will have 5 (!) scale models to be unveiled to you guys at one time. This way you guys will have FINISHED sample cars to choose from that will be dimensioned, accurate, renditions of the body designs for the 818. The Chassis work is far ahead of the body shaping so that is is not being worked on much right now. The fuel tank was a big deal and Jim has moved that behind the seat rather than under it, effectively lowering the seast height a ton, which was a big concern.

So, the next major step will be selecting the body shape of the car (and the next 2 or 3 shapes to be made in sequence). As I said before, the good news is that these scale bodies are then immediately going to full size CNC milling and our master shaper John will begine making molds immediately. The big question is WHEN will we unveil the models... The RISD model should be about done, I know Jesper is bringing CAD printed 3-D wheels to them this afternoon to complete the car. Three other cars are being done concurrently and the last car is being shaped full size in our shaping bay and scanned and actually reduced to 1/4 scale model to keep comparos apples to apples. The absolute latest unveil would be SEMA, but I am hoping to do this much sooner. Still I think its vital that we show ALL the cars (models) at the same time so that we give everyone a chance to vote/evaluate the cars and discuss launch sequence of them.

I was very clear after the design competition ended that we would go to scale models next, and then full size cars after that as major nodes. I dont think it will be possible to have a full size car (as we did with the yellow GTM at SEMA 2003) at SEMA this year as the most important step HAS to be body selection an community involvement post design contest.

As has been reported, we will intro body shapes for THREE purposes...

1. A body shape for track guys
2. a fun exotic roadster that can be bought at $9,900 and completed at sub $15k, and
3. a high-mileage model that will lead in radical design but deliver upwards of 65 mpg (our mule GTM powered by the same technology and built by West Philly team is already above 70 mpg).

All told, three models on the same (or very similar) chassis and ready for launch shortly after designs are found that light peoples hair on fire.

I have asked Dave to start in earnest (even 1-5 posts a day) getting all 700+ submissions up on this site (faster if he gets help).

I will TRY and get some spy shots of the models out shortly (we are also doing a full-size test shape that I might show a peek at), but will only show the full line-up of contenders at the same time.

Still work to do on the name as you guys rocked the name competition... still the little 818 nomenclature is starting to grow on me (remember that if all three models go to production, we have three chances at names based on product design and configuration).

Dave

[PhyrraM]

Good news about the fuel tank! The height profile was one of my (very few) concerns. I'm guessing the H6 guys might not like the news, however.

Thanks for the report!

[Gollum]

Good news about the fuel tank! The height profile was one of my (very few) concerns. I'm guessing the H6 guys might not like the news, however.

Thanks for the report!

Actually I'd say that's GOOD news for the H6 guys. The fuel tank won't be in the cabin space, which means if you can solve the tank issue with a custom tank, reworking some of the chassis shouldn't be that bad! Anyone who wants a H6 should know they were going to be doing some major hacking anyways, so I'd say overall it's not as bad as it could have been.

[Oppenheimer]

Awesome update. Good news all around.

I am a little concerned though that the 700 designs going online for view around the same time the (now 5!) chosen scale models are unveiled. There is certain to be a bunch of ewww-ing and ahhhh-ing over many of the 700, and arguing over which are better than the contest winners, etc. I'd like to have been time for all that to settle down and become a memory before we see the 'Chosen 5'. If it overlaps, instead of just comparing the 700 club to the contest winners, we'll be comparing them to the Chosen 5 as well. That can only dilute the positve buzz the Chosen 5 will enjoy.

[Oppenheimer]

as for the name, I think 818 is everyones favorite, more than any of the actual text based names that were suggested. As was mentioned before, perhaps the 3 styles (Track, Street, MPG) can just be named with derivatives of 818. Like 818R, 818GT, etc.

[PhyrraM]

as for the name, I think 818 is everyones favorite, more than any of the actual text based names that were suggested. As was mentioned before, perhaps the 3 styles (Track, Street, MPG) can just be named with derivatives of 818. Like 818R, 818GT, etc.

No thanks. I still strongly prefer a real name. I've gone so far as to accept the "818" as part of a an actual name, but I have my limits...

[bromikl]

No thanks. I still strongly prefer a real name. I've gone so far as to accept the "818" as part of a an actual name, but I have my limits...

Of course, you can call it what you want. I still have a soft spot for Roxy. "She's an evil beyotch but I cant live without her ."

[Clutchman]

as for the name, I think 818 is everyones favorite, more than any of the actual text based names that were suggested. As was mentioned before, perhaps the 3 styles (Track, Street, MPG) can just be named with derivatives of 818. Like 818R, 818GT, etc.

I agree, 818 is by far my favorite. Giving a car a name is silly to me. One thing that always drove me nuts about most American cars. By the way, I am very pro-America so don't get me wrong. It is just one thing that always drove me crazy... Bonneville, Sunfire, Solstice, just very cheesy to me.

Clutchman

[NicksPapaw]

Dang Dave, you are just like a woman. Teasing us along. Unbuttoning just one button but not letting us touch. If I didn't think there would eventually be THE MOMENT when we got to see all, you would be thrown to the curb! Just messing with you. Thanks for the update. I can't wait to see the models. Glad everyone survived the hurricane.

[Silvertop]

as for the name, I think 818 is everyones favorite, more than any of the actual text based names that were suggested. As was mentioned before, perhaps the 3 styles (Track, Street, MPG) can just be named with derivatives of 818. Like 818R, 818GT, etc.

I'm with you. For some reason, I find a nice flow to that particular series of numbers, and the use of letter suffixes to denote the different submodels just makes sense to me. However, I could also live with PhyrraM's compromise idea -- as in 818Something -- 818 Stiletto, 818 Mongoose, 818 Sundevil, 818 Sabretooth, 818 Badger, you get the idea.......

[Clutchman]

I'm with you. For some reason, I find a nice flow to that particular series of numbers, and the use of letter suffixes to denote the different submodels just makes sense to me. However, I could also live with PhyrraM's compromise idea -- as in 818Something -- 818 Stiletto, 818 Mongoose, 818 Sundevil, 818 Sabretooth, 818 Badger, you get the idea.......

I would like to see:

808R (Track)
808GT (Street)
808H (MPG)

Clutchman

[crackedcornish]

Awesome update. Good news all around.

I am a little concerned though that the 700 designs going online for view around the same time the (now 5!) chosen scale models are unveiled. There is certain to be a bunch of ewww-ing and ahhhh-ing over many of the 700, and arguing over which are better than the contest winners, etc. I'd like to have been time for all that to settle down and become a memory before we see the 'Chosen 5'. If it overlaps, instead of just comparing the 700 club to the contest winners, we'll be comparing them to the Chosen 5 as well. That can only dilute the positve buzz the Chosen 5 will enjoy.

as for the name, I think 818 is everyones favorite, more than any of the actual text based names that were suggested. As was mentioned before, perhaps the 3 styles (Track, Street, MPG) can just be named with derivatives of 818. Like 818R, 818GT, etc.

I have to respectfully disagree with Oppenheimer, I dislike numbers as a name for a car. While numbers can be more informative if used correctly, they just aren't as expressive or in many cases memorable (I still have to google half of the cars that have number names just to know which car some people are talking about ) as a well chosen name.

And as far as showing all 700+ designs taking anything away from the designs that were chosen...it's too late for that, there's already a good percentage of people here who are still wondering what parameters (or drugs ) the judges were given to have picked the overall winning design that they did.

I'm just happy that at least one of my favorites designs (thanks to Dave) did make it into that group chosen to make it at least to the modeling stage

[305mouse]

With BMW, I hate all the numbers. With this being one car, I like the numbers. I wouldn't mind something with 3 letters, like the GTM, obviously different series of letter though.

[kach22i]

Dang Dave, you are just like a woman. Teasing us along. Unbuttoning just one button but not letting us touch. If I didn't think there would eventually be THE MOMENT when we got to see all, you would be thrown to the curb! ..............

You just gave me an idea for a new name, the 818 Slit, only the insiders would get the joke.

Too brutal?

[Silvertop]

...............Too brutal?

Ever so slightly.

[Dave Smith]

I am just having the hardest time NOT showing some of the work, especially Jim's in-house concept which borrows some lines and cues from a few of the many submissions, yet is still all his own creation (did you forget he designed the GTM?). Jim's car will be #5 and the other 4 are from the design competition. So, we will have 5 scale models to look at and evaluate soon enough... I'll have mad dog post some spy shots of the RISD (Rhode Island School of Design) car which is the 3rd place winner from Xabier, that model will be in-house and getting painted next week. By next Tuesday we should have two of the five models in-house and complete, with the others close behind.

[PhyrraM]

Crap, I just posted in the other thread that I was hoping Scott Bradfords's was the #5.

Looking forward to the models. I'm sure we are all in for another few rounds of 'Forum Wars' trying to decide, recommend, convince, demand to FFR which should be first.