Retro Racing R build

[RetroRacing]

colpito più duramente.

[Sgt.Gator]

I'm meeting RetroRacing at Portland International tonight to setup for the 8 hour Enduro on Saturday. Praying we make it the whole eight hours. My 818R will be there too, ready to cannibalized for emergency parts. I'll get some pics posted asap of the setup and great Victory!

[Mulry]

Good luck!

[Hindsight]

Nice, good luck to both of you! I demand pictures and video. I can't be the ONLY person around here posting race videos.... I don't even have an R!

[mikeb75]

Good luck all and I 2nd Hindsight - want to see videos!

[DanielsDM]

Good luck! Put an 818 on the top step of the podium!

[RetroRacing]

Ya, that sucked.
Engine got new head gaskets, then to dyno for set up (270hp, 270ftlb). Then, off to the track, half a lap in practice, boom, oil and water everywhere (probably head gasket), little bit of fire in the belly pan, then parked. Took out our "reserve" car (RX7 sprint car) was killing it for the first half hour of the race, then the front strut sheared off, completely!

Car looked good, big thanks to Gator and Gator Aid for all of their help! We will get this sorted!
rrtffr2.JPG

[Sgt.Gator]

It was a tough day for 818s. We were paddocked next to Dragonfly Racing's 818R center drive 25 Hour Thill car. It was awesome having two high end 818Rs next to each other. I hope in 2018 they will be next to each other at the Thunderhill 25. Unfortunantely things didn't go so well for them either. They made it about 4 hours then had to stop with an overheated 6 speed STI transmission. They weren't running a tranny cooler.

It was fun being on the RR crew, thanks for the opportunity Jeff!

Pics of the Dragonfly 818R from race day:

..

[Scargo]

Car looks really good. Best of luck!
The center-drive car looks very serious, too. Where is its gas tank?

[DanielsDM]

Ya, that sucked.
Engine got new head gaskets, then to dyno for set up (270hp, 270ftlb). Then, off to the track, half a lap in practice, boom, oil and water everywhere (probably head gasket), little bit of fire in the belly pan, then parked. Took out our "reserve" car (RX7 sprint car) was killing it for the first half hour of the race, then the front strut sheared off, completely!

Car looked good, big thanks to Gator and Gator Aid for all of their help! We will get this sorted!
rrtffr2.JPG

Bummer. The witches and gremlins win again. Car looks great though.

[Mulry]

Damn. I hate to hear that Jeff. What lubrication system are you running -- the Element/Avaid sump setup or the Killer B? Can't remember which one went on this time.

[RetroRacing]

The elements set up, but that isn't the issue. I am sending the car over to NW Ralleysport for a look. I will keep you all informed.

[turbomacncheese]

Love that door vent on the dragonfly!

[Frank818]

Hey Jeff, this really doesn't make sense, you deserve a working car no questions asked. I hope things will straighten out soon.

That green Dragon is sick though.

[RetroRacing]

I agree on both point, the Dragonfly guys are pretty awesome.

[RetroRacing]

Off to breakin the new engine at the Ridge. Please cross everything, pray, wish us luck, sacrifice a chicken (not KFC, doesn't count), whatever you can do to help us get over this engine hurdle.

[Mitch Wright]

Good luck

[Sgt.Gator]

Off to breakin the new engine at the Ridge. Please cross everything, pray, wish us luck, sacrifice a chicken (not KFC, doesn't count), whatever you can do to help us get over this engine hurdle.

If it works well are you coming down to PIR next weekend for the season opener?

I know about the chicken sacrifice...my Blue Sake Bomber STI is at Surgeline getting the new engine broken in on their dyno. IF that works ok I'll head up to ORP on Sunday for a longer on track break-in, then hopefully to PIR next weekend.

I'll pour a double Blue Sake for both our cars in offering to the Subaru Engine Ancestors.

[Frank818]

I'm crossing everything! And I mean... everything! loll Hope it's gonna work.

[RetroRacing]

Ya, well that sucked.
First session, noticed a ticking/slight binding in the right front wheel that got worse on track. Pulled it in after 10 minutes, pulled the right front caliper off, clearanced the caliper to the new 15" front wheels, 10 minutes and good to go. Noticed a little oil on the bottom pan, but nothing major.
Went out for session two, still keeping it under 4k rpm at 7psi, for a full 30 minutes. Came in to smoke in the engine bay, pulled the cover and there is oil everywhere.....Put the lid back on, towed it home.
Now, we don't know where all the oil came from, could be a fitting but sense it is everywhere, I'm thinking it's the rear main again, oil being flung about by the flywheel. With the new massive venting system in the block, I don't see how this is even possible, but we will see later this week when I get her back into the shop.

On a positive note, it was a dream to drive, even on three year old tires. limited power on understeer, brakes were great. I could keep it in 5th in all but two corners, staying under 4k the whole time, kicking the crap out of GT4 911 through the corners. At about 3700 rpm, the thing wants to push me through the seat, at part throttle! It took everything I had to focus on keeping it under 4k until I got into a rhythm. Can't wait until the oil stays in the engine and I can step on it at 15psi!!!

[Sgt.Gator]

Dang, that does suck.
I think it's time for a new engine builder, at least for your short block.
I took my STI up to ORP Sunday for it's break in. 12lbs of boost and 5500 rpm ecu redline. 3 hours of actual time on track, about 180 miles. The main problem was my new Auto-Blip caused a CEL and Limp mode for Throttle Position Sensor Voltage. After two of those I pulled the wires off the accelerator peddle sensor and everything was fine. Well almost fine, my rebuilt Aviaid dry sump pump is leaking drops out the rear inspection plate. So that needs to be addressed but is no big deal.
I don't understand why I can run a fully sealed system with no issues on the seals, and yours is fully vented and blowing oil!
If I can't get back on the Surgeline dyno this week I'm still going to race it Saturday in the Mini-Enduro. Even at 5500 rpm and 12 lbs it's got 270 HP, enought to run the race and get some points towards the Championship. The main thing is to get back in the game, not whether I win the race.

[DanielsDM]

Retro, Man that has to be frustrating. How did your car catch such a nasty case of the gremlins? Hope it gets well soon.

Gator, Auto-Blip? Tell me more.

[Sgt.Gator]

Gator, Auto-Blip? Tell me more.

https://www.auto-blip.com/

Soon I hope to iron out the bug and be able to give a recommendation. I will say the owner responded immediately to my email about the issue.

[RetroRacing]

Until I get it back to the shop, we don't know for sure. I'm hoping it's gear oil from a loose/failed fitting, or oil from somewhere else. I'm also thinking I might want to speed up the scavenge pump to increase the vacuum. What pulley sizes are you using Gator?

[Sgt.Gator]

Until I get it back to the shop, we don't know for sure. I'm hoping it's gear oil from a loose/failed fitting, or oil from somewhere else. I'm also thinking I might want to speed up the scavenge pump to increase the vacuum. What pulley sizes are you using Gator?

5.5" on the DS pump. However that's because I slow down the DS pump, not speed it up. The typical DS pump runs at 1/2 crank speed. But on the DS systems most of us are using they run at 150% crank speed because the DS pulley is so much smaller than the crank pulley. John @ Aviaid says it's not necessary to slow it down, but I do anyway. It's bit controversial to slow it down (see the DS thread in the R forum where it's discussed a LOT). All I know is that Rob (Chad's old car) and I both got better results using a smaller than standard crank pulley (OBX is the only one I know of now) and larger DS pulley. On the STI I use a full size Fluidamper crank pulley so I had to go as large as possible on the DS pulley, hence the 5.5".

[Zach34]

These oil issues have me biting my nails as I've yet to even start my engine.

Retro, what size oil pump are you using, again?

Gator, what size oil pump do you have on your STI? Were bearing clearances altered from stock?

[C.Plavan]

That sucks. I feel your pain!

[Sgt.Gator]

These oil issues have me biting my nails as I've yet to even start my engine.

Retro, what size oil pump are you using, again?

Gator, what size oil pump do you have on your STI? Were bearing clearances altered from stock?

I'm running a race built Rallispec block, so yes they are quite different. It has the 12mm JDM oil pump.

[RetroRacing]

We have a blueprinted 11mm pump in there right now, 90psi oil pressure at all times (up to 4k so far that is). I'll know more this weekend.
We are using the Perrin front pulley, don't know if it's smaller than stock, but good point.

[Zach34]

Well I suppose no sense in jumping down rabbit holes until Retro has gotten a chance to have a good look over his situation, but in the interest of finding a solution that is working:

Gator, on your STI you're running a scavenge-only dry sump, turning what, about 1:1 with the 5.5" pulley and the large Fluidamper crank pulley? That's with a big 12mm pressure pump on a prepped motor that's 100% sealed (no crankcase vent/pcv/vacuum regulator?). Please correct me if I'm wrong. And that's been working well? Do you know how much your bearing clearances were altered?

[Sgt.Gator]

Gator, on your STI you're running a scavenge-only dry sump, turning what, about 1:1 with the 5.5" pulley and the large Fluidamper crank pulley? That's with a big 12mm pressure pump on a prepped motor that's 100% sealed (no crankcase vent/pcv/vacuum regulator?). Please correct me if I'm wrong. And that's been working well? Do you know how much your bearing clearances were altered?

Zach here's the history: I first did a dry sump in my Subaru LGT race wagon pretty much at the same time as Chad did his 818. We both started with the Element Tuning kit which uses an Aviaid scavenge only pump running off the crank pulley A/C ring with a serp belt. I tried both sealed and vented, I liked sealed better. That car started with the Element parts of using the oem crank pulley and a 4" ( or maybe 4.5" DS pulley). When Chad and I both had problems with the oil getting too hot I did a lot of research and decided that every other dry sump system in the word spins the DS pump at less than crank speed, usually a lot less, because they almost all use a small mandrel driving a cogged belt. I switched my oem 5.5" crank pulley for an undersized OBX 4.3" crank pulley. (OBX makes two sizes, be careful if you go this route, it's not always clear which one you are buying). I also got a larger DS pulley. I put a vacuum gauge on my crossover tubes because the Internet Wisdom was that it's impossible to get any scavenge vacuum with just two stages on a Subaru. The internet wisdom was wrong. All this is documented in this thread to nth degree: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...or-road-racing

The LGT blew the motor when the timing belt tensioner came loose (Gates now puts a bottle of Loctite in the timing belt kit and warns this can happen if you don't use it).

The STI: I bought a Cosworth DS system the first time around with it. The Cosworth is a sealed system, except they include a vacuum regulator on the former oil fill hole in the driver's side head. Note this is in case it pulls TOO MUCH vacuum, it's not a pressure relief valve, it's a vacuum relief valve. The Cosworth system is very much like the Element Tuning/Aviaid system in that it's a two stage scavenge only utilizing the factory oil pump for engine oil pressure. The big difference is that it uses a drive mandrel and cogged belt that drives the DS pump at about 1/2 crank speed. I never put a vacuum gauge on the crossover so I don't know how much vacuum it pulled. But like my LGT, it's sealed with no vent line to the DS tank.

The STI overheated last summer at the Rose Cup races and toasted the engine. It was a cooling failure, not an oil issue. Unfortunately the failure ran debris thru the Cosworth pump, damaging it, which was only discovered recently so now I need to get it rebuilt. In the meantime I have installed an Aviaid pump. So far it seems to be working fine but I've only just got it broken in. It uses the serp belt off the Fluidamper crank pulley (almost same size as oem) and a 5.5" Jones Racing DS pulley with a Trantorque Fenner bushing securing the pulley to the pump shaft. Yes, it should be very slightly less than 1:1. The Fluidamper pulley is 5.375". It still has the vacuum relief valve in the former oil fill hole. It's back at Surgeline tonight to get a race tune for this weekend's racing at Portland International. I don't have a vacuum gauge installed yet but it's here and will go on next week.
I don't know what the bearing clearances are on the STI.

The 818R I'm redoing will have an Aviaid pump, pan, and tank. It will be sealed but have a vacuum relief valve. When I install it I will document it in my build thread.

Hope this answers your questions!

[RetroRacing]

We ran the first stock motor sealed, with a vacuum relief valve, and had no issues, with the stock elements set up, and yes we pulled vacuum.

WHat we have here, I do not know. Could be just be blow by from the new unseated rings, but with the vacuum of the DS pump, and the dash 12 venting from 3 points on the engine (block, and two heads) I am pretty sure there must just be an issue from somewhere else. If the boys would just stop making changes to their EP cars so that I could get the thing back in the shop.........

[Mitch Wright]

I would be really suspect if you are getting that much blow-by and crank case pressure on a new engine/new rings/new pistons.

[Zach34]

Gator, thanks for the synopsis. I've followed your threads, but forgot some of the details. I'm going to have to set aside a few hours to go back and consolidate what you guys have learned. Very interested to see how much vacuum you are pulling on the STI. How much did you pull on the LGT?

I made an adapter for the Cosworth-style vacuum regulator setup using the same Peterson regulator. When Retro first said he was still getting crankcase pressure, not vacuum, with his DS setup I thought I may have wasted my time making the adapter. Perhaps not... I don't have any other dry sump parts yet. Hopefully that comes later this summer.

20171219_233302.jpg

[Sgt.Gator]

"Gator, thanks for the synopsis. I've followed your threads, but forgot some of the details. I'm going to have to set aside a few hours to go back and consolidate what you guys have learned. Very interested to see how much vacuum you are pulling on the STI. How much did you pull on the LGT?"

It would max about 14" of vacuum around 2,100 RPM, 12" at 3,500 RPM, then fall to 6"-8" near redline.
See: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...l=1#post208059

[RetroRacing]

So, we have no idea where the oil came from. It seems like some might be gear oil (found a loose fitting on the return line for the cooler) but most is just oil, running down the left head. We think it might be the block off plate for the oil filler, but won't know for sure until tonight when I remove it to inspect. The engine builder made his own flat plate, when ours was a modification of the stock one which retained the o-ring portion of the filler as part of the vacuum bleeder we were using with a sealed block.

We are going to cross our fingers and go for another test this Friday.

[Frank818]

So was it the oil from block off plate oil filler?

How did that yet another test go on Friday 18th?

[RetroRacing]

Same problem yet again. there must be a leak in the rear main or cover plate for the factory oil separator. Only got in one session, 30 minutes, 6k rpm. concerned with the tune, ran it with the old tune in it yet we put in new cams, water temp on long pull shot up to 200, then back down to 185 in less than two corners. wondering if the return water from the turbo is to close to the water temp sensor or if it's the tune in the car. Car did handle perfectly, and was quick even at 6k with 7psi of boost.
Plan is, builder is coming up tomorrow to take a look. If we cant find it, we put in secondary engine, tune it on the dyno using the 'run the #$it method of break in, and take it to the track next-next weekend.
We did have a great time with Gator at the track though!!! He has an awesome STI, I'll let him tell you the story. Really fun time even with oil covering the engine of our car.

[Sgt.Gator]

Same problem yet again. there must be a leak in the rear main or cover plate for the factory oil separator. Only got in one session, 30 minutes, 6k rpm. concerned with the tune, ran it with the old tune in it yet we put in new cams, water temp on long pull shot up to 200, then back down to 185 in less than two corners. wondering if the return water from the turbo is to close to the water temp sensor or if it's the tune in the car. Car did handle perfectly, and was quick even at 6k with 7psi of boost.
Plan is, builder is coming up tomorrow to take a look. If we cant find it, we put in secondary engine, tune it on the dyno using the 'run the #$it method of break in, and take it to the track next-next weekend.
We did have a great time with Gator at the track though!!! He has an awesome STI, I'll let him tell you the story. Really fun time even with oil covering the engine of our car.

It was really disappointing not to have the 818 in the races on Saturday. I took the opportunity to invite Jeff to Co-Drive my STI in the Enduro. It wasn't so much because I felt bad for his team over the 818, but rather I wanted to put the Enduro Man in my STI and grab the data/video on my Vbox to see what I could learn from Master Yoda. Probably most people on this board don't know that Jeff is a very accomplished racer in both sprint and endurance racing with multiple Championships in his RX-7s and other cars.

I started the race in my 2005 STI. Because I qualified with no boost, (another story entirely!) I was mid pack in the grid. The first few laps were fun working thru the faster qualifying cars now that I have boost! I quickly found myself in second place behind a Spec E46 BMW that was really fast. He must have been running a non-Spec E46 tune for the Enduro (which is legal if he is in the ME0 class) because even on the long front straight he was pulling away from me. My half of the enduro came to an end with us in a solid second place in class and overall.

Jeff swapped in and started cranking consistent fast laps. As in just a couple of tenths separated his laps, over and over. I was amazed considering he had never driven the car before, not even one lap in practice. He is a machine, he had numerous laps within hundredths of a second, a fast lap consistency I can't come close to.

About 3/4 of the way thru the race we no longer saw the BMW going by. A grid worker reported that he had pulled off the track and was in the paddock. That put us in first, sweet.

Jeff finished out the race, but not before a fool in a Pro3 BMW almost ran him into the wall on the front straight. We all saw it happen, there wasn't a gnat's hair between the passenger door handle of the Blue Sake Bomber and the wall. That one was a close call.

Jeff took the Checkered Flag in overall first place, a very rare occurrence for the Blue Sake Bomber!

As I type this I'm looking at The Video Vbox data and video. There's places where he is faster than me, and where I'm faster than him. But unlike me, he has consistently fast laps. Because he's so consistently fast he would have kicked my booty if we were racing each other.
In the end his best lap was a 1:34.06 and mine was a 1:33.81. Now looking at where he's faster I could shave off another 1/2 second, maybe one second.....the Vbox is amazing for finding that kind of data. I know exactly where I need to be faster and why, and he knows where he can be faster. So he learned a little, and I learned a lot! Now I just have to get the consistently fast part down....
A big thanks to the Retro Racing Team for a great weekend!
I'll try to post up the videos by late next week.
But in the meantime we have this!



In the grid on Sunday for the ST race:

[Mitch Wright]

Congratulations