Anyone having long term success without using a dry sump system?

[NevaLift2Shift]

1.5-1.7G in the 3 long sweeps T5, T15-16. 1.3-5G in 1B, T3, T7, T12, T17 and T23 for shorter durations. I will have to check but I am guessing close to 200-250 laps between our 2 mile track and the 3.2.

Good to know, I would think that would be enough to see some kind of bearing failure, if it was going to happen. It seems like all the failures I've seen on the EJ series come over extended periods of time, it's not an immediate thing. Definitely going to keep an eye on this thread, even though I have a dry sump. Thanks for sharing, Mitch.

[Blwalker105]

Bill
Great work.
Is there a way to that you can test at higher RPM.
At 1200 RPM the 11mm pump is about 1 quart every 5 seconds.
At 6000 RPM the 11mm pump is about 1 quart every 1 seconds.

Will your baffle block oil making it back to the pan at 50 Degree and 1 quart per second flow?
Bob

Good question Bob, and I'm about 95% sure it won't block anything. I made a 1/8" dam around both the inner and outer perimeters of the pan then filled it with oil to simulate how much might cold oil might collect there as it is in transit downward. I weighed the plate before and after adding the oil and the most the plate can block is about 3-4 ounces. If I remember correctly, the lower crank case area and drain back ports are substantially above the level of the main plate so the oil will have to follow the path of least resistance, which is downward into the pan.

I'm almost sure, but there's no way I can conceive that the engine can absorb 1 qt per second through normal bearing clearances. I think most of that oil is being bypassed back into the pan via that big pipe in one of the rear corners. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

That very test will be among the first things I look at when it is in a running vehicle.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I'm almost sure, but there's no way I can conceive that the engine can absorb 1 qt per second through normal bearing clearances. I think most of that oil is being bypassed back into the pan via that big pipe in one of the rear corners. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

That very test will be among the first things I look at when it is in a running vehicle.

On OEM Subaru oil pumps. If oil pressure goes above 85 PSI, it gets bypassed from the outlet side of the pump back to the inlet side of the pump.

In the video below, Bill Daily is demonstrating his Spintric air/oil separator. About 80% through the video you can see how much oil is going through the engine at high revs.

Bob



https://youtu.be/noO16P5vSwQ

[Blwalker105]

On OEM Subaru oil pumps. If oil pressure goes above 85 PSI, it gets bypassed from the outlet side of the pump back to the inlet side of the pump.

In the video below, Bill Daily is demonstrating his Spintric air/oil separator. About 80% through the video you can see how much oil is going through the engine at high revs.

Bob



https://youtu.be/noO16P5vSwQ

Whoa, that Spintric makes a pretty amazing difference.

Bob, you were spot-on with your flow rates and I was a bit low. Here is the study I found and there is some pretty good information on pages 22-24. Their measured flow rate of 40 liters per minute is probably pretty close to our stock pump.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/027...0cfe32e5c4.pdf

I can get a quart of water per second through there, and I can get a quart per second of my 65 degree test mixture, which was 2 quarts of 0w-30 and 2 quarts of diesel fuel...but it was very close. I still feel good about the design, but I think I'm going to longitudinally elongate the drain area and add 5 or 10 degrees more angle to the lower baffle. Good eye and many thanks for the information.

[DanielsDM]

Nice work Blwalker!

BTW the video posted is not showing the Spintric. Spintric is an ARE product and is a passive separator. Daily uses a shaft driven separator that is build into the pump.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Nice work Blwalker!

BTW the video posted is not showing the Spintric. Spintric is an ARE product and is a passive separator. Daily uses a shaft driven separator that is build into the pump.

Hi Dan, My mistake on the ARE Spintric.
Thanks Bob

[Blwalker105]

OK, good news! For testing purposes and this video, I increased the downward angle of the lower baffle plate, but left the size of the rectangular main drain back hole the same. The production plate's main drain back hole will be larger by about 6%.

In the video, the 4 quarts of 5w-30 were in the freezer for about a half hour and were at 28 degrees F when I removed them. I then fiddled with fine-tuning things in my 70 degree shop for about 5 minutes. Although the digital thermometer shows between 35-37 degrees, the bulk of the oil below the surface was probably closer to 30 degrees F.

There was absolutely no problem getting that 4 quarts back into the sump within 2.5 - 2.7 seconds, which is well within the normal high-rpm pumping rate of about 1qt per second.

I now have a functioning Subaru test vehicle and will begin real-world testing by this coming Tuesday. Track testing will hopefully be following closely.

https://youtu.be/XE8jSNRsYfQ

[DanielsDM]

Again, great work!

[Blwalker105]

OK, The ArcTangent Design Oil Control Plate is finally ready!! After a seeming lifetime of 8 months of testing and design changes, I'll be joining vendor status early next week and my website should be up soon after that. In the meantime, anyone interested in purchasing one can PM me. As you can see, it works with the stock oil pickup and both early & late Killer B pickups. It also works with both early style oil pans and newer pans, and the Killer B high capacity oil pan. Here are some pics.















Many thanks to Mechie3 for his insights and never saying no to coming over on his lunch hour, firing up Solidworks and showing what a true master he is!

At this time, all fabrication duties are being done by my neighbor and me. If volume forces us to farm out the fab services, prices will have to climb a bit. I'm still confident we'll be comfortably below the competition's $450 price point. At this time I have 48 units I can offer at $295 each.

[Sgt.Gator]

Your new test rig?

2009 Porsche 911 | Engine Oil Sump Test Rig | Edmunds.com

[biknman]

So moving from wet sump #moroso to dry dump again #aviaiddrysump question for yawl dry sump top mount or bottom mount for the pump. This would be a 3 stage pump thru bolt mounts, no bypass, 1.25" sections, approx 7" long?
https://instagram.com/p/BlgVmT_FdI7h...B9MimXb4U4eA0/
image.jpeg

image.jpeg

image.jpeg
Top hoses would be longer but could have every thing below inside frame rails and allow for fab ing up a header with some shorter runners

image.jpeg
Bottom hoses would be really short but would have to deal with header and would hang as low as wet sump pan

Was cosidering a 4 or 5 stage but didn't want to deal with the complexity of pluming heads and all the extra hoses and if I ever have to replace the heads having another set on hand all fitted up for scavenging #818r #factoryfive818

[Sgt.Gator]

Do you have a build thread? I searhed but didn't see one......the answer is it of course "depends". I do't see a turbo in the pic, oem location with oem located intake inlet or rotated?

[biknman]

No build thread sorry. Turbo could go any where, intake manny could go either way also, both locations will be opptimized as much as possible for things like weight distro, cooling, etc

[Rob T]

On my (Chad's) R, the pump is on top like the first picture. The aluminum panel on the bottom of my R just touches the bottom of the oil filter and the headers and still leaves little ground clearance. On my car, I don't how the pump would fit underneath...

[biknman]

On my (Chad's) R, the pump is on top like the first picture. The aluminum panel on the bottom of my R just touches the bottom of the oil filter and the headers and still leaves little ground clearance. On my car, I don't how the pump would fit underneath...

Thank you that’s what I was thinking the Moroso alum pan with cooling fins hung done about 1/2” below the chassis tubing

[Mitch Wright]

My KillerBee pan is about 1/2 below the frame rail as is my JDM Header.

[biknman]

Just thought I’d post this real quick my dry sump kit in the works which will be ver 3 for me on a EJ engine. I went all Aviaid pretty much. FYI a BRZ crank bolt with a BBC 1” crank Drive mandrel allowed me to run a standard 1” ID drive pulleys :-)

4DDE8AFA-612C-46AD-88B9-74F5871578D7.jpeg

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[Zach34]

Looking good!

How are you handling the coolant manifold on top of the engine? On mine, the upper radiator hose connection comes out where you mounted your DS pumps.

Where did you get the AN threaded thermostat housing?

I like how you got rid of all the huge brackets for the alternator and A/C compressor. Is that a custom setup for your alternator mount, or is it an aftermarket kit from somewhere?

[biknman]

Coolant manifold is done With -16an fittings I had @duran_industries make me ref: https://instagram.com/p/BhApsdRnnF_A...b7jeoHbAAiF00/
AB0AD75C-0EDD-4755-A34B-108DAE99AC1C.jpg

Water pump outlet -20AN and AN breather fittings from Tig Werks www.tigwerks.com Outfront Motorsports sale them ref: https://instagram.com/p/BebQ8MVjHLqu..._97ai3VIs42Q0/
F2C50854-6E10-4CFA-A297-330335FAEB1D.png

Alternator brackets Outfront Motorsports https://www.outfrontmotorsports.com/accessories/
A735610F-DA8B-4786-8060-F240E6882F16.jpeg

Or eBay https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F253794458499

And if any body ask the -8an fitting off water pump is to help with cooling on cylinder 4 ref: E78D7D49-AE46-4CAE-954B-D3DC74F7F0C8.png
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bla6QquD...=1ukc7cxjp0592

[biknman]

Reply to Rob T about mounting pump on the bottom of the engine

With a thru bolt mounting plate and thru bolt pump flanges (Aviaid p/n 76). The plate could be mounted on stand offs on the oil pan studs / bolts and some available thread holes in the block not needed. Allowing it hovering (or hanging rather) over the pan allowing you to mount the pump to the bottom the block.
Ref: http://aviaid.com/pdfs/077_universal...ount_pumps.pdf
Attachment 91086

[Zach34]

Coolant manifold is done With -16an fittings I had @duran_industries make me ref: https://instagram.com/p/BhApsdRnnF_A...b7jeoHbAAiF00/
AB0AD75C-0EDD-4755-A34B-108DAE99AC1C.jpg

That is awesome. I have a strong urge to copy that. I fabricated my own coolant manifold to adapt to a -20 fitting out of sheet aluinum, but it mimics the shape of the OEM one and your setup is much much cleaner.

And if any body ask the -8an fitting off water pump is to help with cooling on cylinder 4 ref: E78D7D49-AE46-4CAE-954B-D3DC74F7F0C8.png
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bla6QquD...=1ukc7cxjp0592

Interesting. I've never heard of this issue. Does it just go tie into the heater lines or something? Is your -8 adapter welded to the pump?

[biknman]

That is awesome. I have a strong urge to copy that. I fabricated my own coolant manifold to adapt to a -20 fitting out of sheet aluinum, but it mimics the shape of the OEM one and your setup is much much cleaner

Interesting. I've never heard of this issue. Does it just go tie into the heater lines or something? Is your -8 adapter welded to the pump?

FYI SBC -16an remote water pump fittings almost fit prefect off by a millimeter.

Yes I Y the 2 -16an fittings pictured on the coolant block outlet ports into a -20an then run the coolant thru a swirl pot with -20s (pictured). With the -20 hose instead of a hard pipe I have a lot more flexibility to package other stuff and I think starting the cooling process sooner also preventing some heat soak or at least I hope. The Swirl pot is at the highest point in the cooling system helps to burb air continuesly. After many, many years chasing EJ coolant issues in a dedicated motor sports application trying to rid the system of air, and effecintly and effectively cool the engine thats allows me to increase aero (i.e. Smaller air feeds to rad) this is the only solution for me that I’ve found which works succesful and is reliable. Also I use a recirculating rad cap on the swirl pot connected to a sealed expansion/ overflow tank so system can expand and contract coolant as needed.


Yes if you have stock set up it splices into the heater circuit. How I run it on my "street" coupe 22b Scooby (no egr pipe). I cut the hose off the fitting and welded on a AN fitting for the cylinder head and welded on a AN fitting onto one of the water pump feeds that was meant for the heater core or oil/ coolant heat exchanger. Beacuase racecar and no heater core nor coolant though throttle body nor oil / coolant heat exchanger. For major EJ issues leading to engine failure in my experiences 1. oiling failing to be supplied properly to the pump in high Gs 2. head gaskets 3. cylinder 4 getting really hot as compared to other cylinders. The coolant can “ Edie” for lake of better words in the head. Also where air bubbles like to hide.the knock sensor sets right over #4 it so kinda throws things off. #3 has the same port on the head to feed coolant thru the turbo so no “ Edie” issue.


Hope this helps yawl!

[longislandwrx]

looking awesome, just followed you and Duran on insta... did you sell that moroso pan and pickup yet? my DD's is getting a little porous

ps those msi mounts are top notch

[biknman]

looking awesome, just followed you and Duran on insta... did you sell that moroso pan and pickup yet? my DD's is getting a little porous

So I'm going to put the Aluminum Moroso pan on my Scooby Coupe 22b. But I do have a new Moroso steel pan with new aluminum pickup and Coswoth wind age tray I'd be willing to sale. I also have set of new used Subaru OEM 4pot front and 2 pot rear brakes with rotors / pads and SS lines I need to sale that I was going to use on the build.

Speaking of selling stuff I wonder what all the R chassis folks are doing with all the S Chassis stuff FFR gives you? I have tons of stuff I'll never use; lights, aluminum panels, the FFR special wheels set, axles, shifter and cables, etc etc.

[longislandwrx]

PM me about the pan and brakes... might be interested in both.

regarding the extra parts, i didn't end up with many, i'm using the lights, most of the aluminum i didn't use i ended up cannibalizing to make little pieces. I didn't get wheels, I took a credit for declining the Kirkey, I modified my shifter with a short throw.

post up whatever you don't end up using on the the for sale forum, someone with an S i'm sure will pick them up to have spares and you'll get some lunch money, or a good trade. The only thing no one seemed to want were the flex cooling tubes and gen one side pipes. I just left them out for the scrap guys.

[biknman]

Another quick post on my Dry sump using Aviaid stuff which I hope helps y’all out.

Using the Aviaid universal mounting plate I got the 3 stage pump mounted on the block using the power steering pump mount’s threaded holes. Every lines up perfect :-)! Some trimming of the 1/2 mounting plate is all it took, which is time consuming depending on the tools you have. I used a HF ports-band-saw. Had to enlarging 2 of the 1/4” holes in the plate to 10mm and fab a small bracket for the front out of some angle and that’s all it took. The BRZ crank bolt is plenty long enough for me to fit a 20mm drive HTD pulley for the pump and a 10mm HTD Drive pulley for the alternator on a cut down BBC 1” Drive mandrel with a some spacers.

DC9E5CCF-265D-4F9C-8DBF-5B1AF11AA08B.jpeg

FCA4BDF5-6EC6-4929-B826-E83F3C782A0C.jpeg

41D31BC9-F597-4943-A6FD-ADABB0C6D83A.jpg

Lastly for those of you interested I have about $2500 invested so far with Aviaid (pan w/fittings, 3stage pump w/fittings, pulleys, 2.5 gal tank w/fittings, mounting stuff) only need a couple HTD belts some AN hoses and a breather tank to finish.

FYI for now I’ll be feeding oil though Aviaid pan (OE pick up spot) thru gutting oil pump so using it’s pressure bypass then thru stock oil filter (exchanger deleted) into motor. Will later pump though remote filter w/pressure bypass then thru a air-to-air oil cooler into block at oil filter 22mm port.

Hope this helps yawl out. :-)

[Mitch Wright]

I have been running a wet sump since day one, the car is a track car and would guess I am at or close to the top of the list for track miles on a 818. Here are a couple of data logs from a track day last week. I ran 5 20 minute sessions the data from each session look pretty much identical.
A couple of months ago I installed one of Bill Walkers oil control plates, it works folks. Now prior to that oil pressure was consistent and had been more than happy with the results. I would see a slight traces of oil in the TMIC, since installing the plate the intercooler is dry.
818 oil test.png 818 oil test 3.jpg

[Scargo]

...A couple of months ago I installed one of Bill Walkers oil control plates, it works folks. Now prior to that oil pressure was consistent and had been more than happy with the results. I would see a slight traces of oil in the TMIC, since installing the plate the intercooler is dry.

Did you ever run a Killer B baffle plate or Cosworth baffle plate prior to that?

[Mitch Wright]

Yes I had the KB windage tray. I did make a baffle that I copied from a race team in Europe which is a much simpler concept to Bills design that they have been running successfully but hadn't installed it, EJ Oil Pan Baffle.jpg Bill has taken the design a number of steps further.
As a side note I was going through data last night and noticed the oil temp is lower post baffle install by an average of 7*. I was comparing runs made this spring with ambient temps between 58* and 70* to the July/August temps running with the plate ranging from 85-95*.

[drzmat]

Hi, i would like to revive this thread and see how those wet sump engines are holding up on track? I plan on ordering a 818S or 818C kit in 2020 to replace my street/track BMW E46 M3 but, like most track enthusiast, i am worried about those subaru engines going kaboom on track conditions. With the prices of dry sump kits higher than a complete donor car, this option is a no go for me.

My car would see 50% street/track and we dont really have long banked turns on my local tracks around here.

Anyway, i just wanted to have some updates from you guys.

Thanks in advance!

[Scargo]

I don't have my R finished, but I track a 2008 STI that generates 1.3-1.5 G's regularly and one big banked turn on NJMP's Lightning track is particularly gruelling as you are under high G's for 10-12 seconds. I use a KillerB setup. That, and I have seven quarts of Royal Purple racing oil circulating, a huge oil cooler and two quarts in an Accusump. I have 50 track hours, and counting, on this engine.
I am upgrading to Bill Walkers baffle plate, which is track proven on 818's, at my next opportunity.
I think TT and Time Attack Subarus have shown that you can build a reliable track engine and a few are wet sump!

Kabooms are usually centered around detonation caused by the tune, the fuel or more than likely, oil getting into the intake tract from blowby. Kabooms are virtually always rod bearing failures. You will have a perfect storm when you take an old, stock engine, up the boost and run it hard and hot, with oil diluting the octane and fuel diluting the oil's lubricity properties and poor oil pressure. An A/OS is a must as is not letting oil particles vent back to the intake! Stock Subaru engines make good torque down low and down low is where you have poor oil pressure.

As I preach relentlessly, the oiling system is crucial to a Subaru when they are beat on. It needs upgrading. No, it requires upgrading! The stock pump is inadequate for racing and it needs an oil cooler. Rod bearings 2 and 3 share the same feed from one crankshaft journal while one and four have a dedicated main journal feeding them. It's no wonder that you often see #2 rod poking through the case!

[drzmat]

Good infos there, i plan on using Bills plate too.

Im not new to subaru engines, ive got several subarus in the past including a 2006 wrx that was a blast to drive, however when i started tracking back in the days, ive saw and heard too much horror sories and decided to stay away from subarus, I switched to BMW and never looked back.

However, the 818 seems a fantastic car and a fun project to do so im taking as much infos as possible before pulling the trigger. Im still concerned a bit about those engines reliability...

Thanks for the feedback!

[Scargo]

I switched to BMW and never looked back.

I have a 440i X and had an M3 though I've never tracked a Bimmer. I used to race with SCCA when I was young. Now I play.

I'm in the woulda, coulda, shoulda place right now. I have three STI's and the 818R. I'm so invested in Subaru cars and parts that I feel trapped. On the bright side, I think I know what works and I like the non-stock tinkering and modding. I like showing up and keeping up with the big boys with their high-dollar toys.
Yes, the horror stories are true. Subaru engines can be a ticking time bomb if you miss any of several key elements.

[drzmat]

I have a 440i X and had an M3 though I've never tracked a Bimmer. I used to race with SCCA when I was young. Now I play.

I'm in the woulda, coulda, shoulda place right now. I have three STI's and the 818R. I'm so invested in Subaru cars and parts that I feel trapped. On the bright side, I think I know what works and I like the non-stock tinkering and modding. I like showing up and keeping up with the big boys with their high-dollar toys.
Yes, the horror stories are true. Subaru engines can be a ticking time bomb if you miss any of several key elements.

Ha i 100% understand and can relate to that.

Ive built an LS engine bmw e36 dedicated track car a couple of years ago and it was a monster on the track, i was playing with the big boys GT3's etc...

Ive sold it to built a LS swapped datsun 280z that i finally sold too...

Now i am back with a dual duty car wich is my E46 M3, however the value of those are going up so i dont want to mess with it too much and will probably sell it instead of modding it for the track....

Then i may start that 818 project....

Ill probably have some questions for you during my research on the subject

Thanks again!

[biknman]

For those of you that may be doing a FA20 (might work on EJ too)here's what BMR with Monotune in BTCC found useful in a wet sump system due to rules with swiveling oil pick up tube:

From https://www.hpacademy.com/technical-...ump-tech-byte/
This is the situation Mountune faced when developing the Subaru FA20 engine for use in the British Touring Car Championship where the rules required retaining the factory wet sump.
Goodwood-3814__ResizedImageWzcyMCw2MDBd.jpg
To give the best chance of being able to provide a high pressure supply of oil, a clever moving pickup is used. This swings inside the sump in response to the lateral and longitudinal g forces the car is being subjected to, meaning that it essentially follows the oil around the sump

[lance corsi]

See post #7. Already been done. But thanks for the vote of credibility.

[biknman]

See post #7. Already been done. But thanks for the vote of credibility.

Yes interesting https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...l=1#post233227. How did it work? And how far does it hang down?

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...8&d=1460131217



https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...0&d=1460131219

[Scargo]

I don't believe we ever heard from Lance Corsi about how this swivel pickup design worked for him.

[lance corsi]

My pan measures 6.5” towards the front of the engine, 7” in the back, as measured from the mating surface. It should hold about 1 extra quart of oil compared to stock. I’m still working on the beast, so no report on functionality. Hopefully be finished within a year.
Btw, I raised my motor mounts 1.25” above factory location to help with oil drainback, thus raising my pan above the lower frame rails.

[altitude7200]

Reviving this old thread as I'm a new owner planning to race in NASA st1.

Did Bill's oil plate workout? Is anybody still racing these? Will I survive with a killer bee and maybe an accusump?

I'm a little worried considering no one seems to drive or talk about these anymore. My guess is the oil thing never really got figured out and they all exploded and everybody gave up?

Is Bill still around selling pans?