JimLev's Build

[JimLev]

Good info wrp and NAZ.
Other interesting things...
My Connect and Cruise package came with the flex plate mounted to the crank and a set of (too long) bolts for the converter.
The tranny came with a flex plate too (same p/n) and another set of bolts for the flex plate to converter that were shorter.
The short ones were the correct ones to use, the longer bolts would bottom out before they pulled the converter up to the flex plate.

Tony also talked about using a higher stall speed converter, which I did buy.
The stock (4L65E) converter is 2400-2800 RPM, the one I bought (4L70) is 3000-3400. The higher speed is suppose to help braking.
After getting all the wiring connected I see there is a wire to hook to the brake light switch to send 12 volts to the tranny ECM to unlock the converter when you brake......so maybe a higher stall speed converter really isn't needed?
NAZ, you probably know more about this than most of us.
This was my first build using an automatic tranny.

[erlihemi]

Yes, same for the LS3 and 4L65E, spec is 0.125 to 0.250". This is the space between the flex plate and the front mounting (bolt) pads on the converter with converter pushed all the way into the tranny. When you bolt the converter to the flex plate the converter gets pulled forward.
Mine measured 0.157 so I thought everything was OK, this was with the tabs broken. I'm now positive the 2 cutouts on the converter weren't aligned with the 2 tabs on the ID of the impeller. I'll make sure it's correct this time, don't want to repeat the process again.
Not looking forward to putting the tranny back in the car with the engine already in it. It was a PITA getting it out from the top side.
Can the converter swell from pressure, or is it just expanding for the heat?

I learned this lesson on a well built tranny with a brake and 3800 rpm stall converter. I had made a number of runs over a few weekends getting the chassis dialed in and finally was getting power to the ground. I launched the car hard and when I caught second the engine jumped to 7500 and I coasted as a rider not a driver. After checking all the other possibilities I had to pull the tranny and replace the front pump. I had left plenty of room typical for the average converter and flywheel, but I was making well over 600hp and launching on full stall. Sheered those front tangs axially (vice radially) due to ballooning of the converter. I ended up "relieving" the converter slot 1/8" and never had that issue again.
I think pressure and temperature were working together on that one.

[JimLev]

Thanks for the tip. I'll cut the slots a little deeper on mine tomorrow.

[erlihemi]

I used an expansion plug on a cable to seal the converter from contamination. Leave the plug in until everything is clean again and then loosen it just enough to pull it out clean. Do not depend on stuffing rags in the converter!! Do not create a sharp corner or stress riser in the slot. Not saying you really need to do this. Theoretically you should have enough room for expansion as is. I was doing this with a 3400lb car that would carry the front through the 60 foot timer and launching at full throttle. I'm not sure anyone has achieved that with the Hot Rod chassis. Maybe NAZ will accomplish it?? I was using a 904 converter with a 727 pump and other hybrid parts to squeeze one more tenth out of the car. I also was launching off one of the stickiest tracks in the late 90's. Dinwiddie Va. was getting consistent 325mph runs in a real quarter mile in those days. The first 600 feet was concrete. I pulled a 13 second run coasting the day I wasted the tranny pump.

[NAZ]

JimLev, I think that wire you're talking about unlocks the integral clutch when the brakes are applied so that the "lock-up" converter reverts back to a conventional converter when coasting to a stop. I suspect you'll still need that 3000 stall converter or a heavy brake pedal effort at traffic signals.

BTW, I find it much easier to pull the engine & trans as a unit (had mine in and out so many times I lost count). I used Weatherpak connectors for the headlights to make pulling the grill / radiator ***'y easier. A new clean drain pan and new clean 5-gal gas can to collect the coolant and it only takes one old man a few hours to pull the engine & trans. Not much longer going back in. I can't imagine the pain it would be to pull the trans only as even with the body off I still had a roll cage in the way.

[JimLev]

Erlihemi, thanks for the info about using an expansion plug (I have one), was going to stuff a rag down there.
I don't think I'll ever be doing a full throttle launch on a stock slush box, if it was a manual then maybe.

NAZ, not exactly sure what that wire controls. The info I have said "for smoother operation, it's suggested that the wire labeled brake light be run to the factory brake pedal switch (NC) so the TCC will unlock when you apply the brakes".

I'll be using the 4L70 converter that has a 3000-3400 stall speed.

I left the engine in because I don't have an engine crane, I borrowed one when I put the eng/tranny in. My friend wasn't home when I decided to pull it out.
The body wasn't on yet, just had to remove the seats, tunnel cover, etc.
I do have a tranny jack which I used to remove the tranny by pushing it up.
I'll try putting it in from under the chassis after I get it back together.

[myjones]

Tony also talked about using a higher stall speed converter, which I did buy.
The stock (4L65E) converter is 2400-2800 RPM, the one I bought (4L70) is 3000-3400. The higher speed is suppose to help braking.
send 12 volts to the tranny ECM to unlock the converter when you brake......so maybe a higher stall speed converter really isn't needed?

Go read up on the difference between flash, stall and lock-up and you will see when/why to (unlock) the convertor. When braking that
merely keeps the (engine) from stalling by allowing some slip in the convertor. Stall is the speed where slippage is lowest but still not completely
locked up. Flash is the point where the TC starts to overcome the normal idling slippage and move the vehicle forward, that is what makes
the car want to creep at a stop sign and requires more braking effort to sit still. When FF tells you to get a higher stall convertor it's because
that one will also have a higher (flash) speed which is really what you need to get a light car with minimal/no power brakes to sit still without a
LOT of pressure on the brake pedal.

NAZ

Back a brotha up here would ya?
Dale

[erlihemi]

I'll back you up Dale. Flash is what makes a heavy car seem sluggish until you "get on" the converter also. Most modern converters in a 4L65E should not have an issue with this. Releasing the lock up clutch , however, is extremely important. On a light car I would "fail" conservatively and release the lockup as early as possible on decreasing speeds. This is constrained by both programming and physical configuration of the OEM valve body. In the "early days" of lockups we would put a switch in series with the controller to entirely eliminate lockup when desired. This isn't always an option now. If you have ever sat at a light with the back tires scratching to go or stalled your car (embarrassing) braking hard ahead of a turn you can appreciate having the converter clutch disabled. The best thing to do is call the manufacturer of the desired torque converter and have the discussion with a tech rep.

[NAZ]

Like Dale said -- read up on flash and stall speed and how lockup converters work to get a better grounding in these amazing devices. I use Hughes Performance converters and these folks not only make a good product in their Arizona facility but are always helpful when you need some advice.

I'll also echo that the best advice is to talk to the converter manufacturer when selecting a torque converter. There is a lot of discussion on stall speed (and flash speed for that matter) that muddy the water when selecting a torque converter. The advertised stall speeds are to be taken with a grain of salt -- this is a relative number and is significantly influenced by stroke, compression ratio, cam profile, & vehicle weight to name a few variables. The absolute best way to get what will work best for you is to talk to the manufacturer and be ready to answer questions about your car, engine build, and proposed use. The manufacturer will help you select the best option for your needs.

[JimLev]

Thanks for all the info guys.
Erlihemi, I did grind about 0.075 out of the slot on the converter snout. I now have 0.250" of space for expansion.
The tranny is back in the car, still need to put the starter, driveshaft, shifter, etc back in.

I did some reading on converters 2 days ago. I did know what stall speed was but never heard of flash speed.
I did buy the converter with the GM Connect & Cruise so that's the one I'll be using.
Hope to have everything back together tomorrow and go carting this weekend.

[JimLev]

The tranny is back together and in the car. This was the first time I ever opened up a slushbox, I was somewhat concerned if I had fixed it and put all the parts back in correctly.
They are a bit more complicated than a manual. If I ever blow this one I think I could now do a complete rebuild.
So onto the video....maybe. Don't know why it isn't showing up.
Here's the link. https://youtu.be/X1TeYK9dvQU

[NAZ]

Good job.

Looks like it works in forward and reverse and you got video to prove it. But what I want to know is how you can refrain from foot braking that thing and smoking the tires. I can't help myself even when no one is looking and if someone had a video camera, well thats like mandatory.

[JimLev]

LOL, yes those tires seem to have a mind of their own.
I don't think they are going to last very long.

The converter selection seems to be A OK. When the engine is at a hot idle I don't need to have my foot on the brake to hold it back.
Glad I bought the electric steering option.
The 33 doesn't have a small turning radius.

[JOP33]

Sounds great! Love the wheels & tires.

[60's Kid]

Did you try the calibration mode on the speedometer to see if it was working properly?

[JimLev]

Did you try the calibration mode on the speedometer to see if it was working properly?

No I didn't, but the speedo does work, just not accurate.
To cal it you need to drive a few miles at a constant speed (I think) so with no plate or registration I'm not going to take a chance at getting a ticket.

[CVOBill]

Jim, congrats on the first drive. Looks and sounds great.

[HVACMAN]

Congratulations Jim. Both on the repair and the gocart. The car sounds great.

[JimLev]

Thanks guys. It was a hectic 6 months to get it to the gocart stage.
Bill, your external fuel pump is working A+.

I've got some concerns about the manual brakes and the Lokar shifter.
No matter how hard I jump on the brake pedal I can't lock them up. Different pads maybe?

The Lokar doesn't shift easy from D to N, mainly because of the angle the tranny arm (if that's what you call it) is at in D.
It's sort of at 6 o'clock in P and at 3:30 o'clock in D, which makes it sort of hard to get it back to N.
I'd like the tranny arm to operate from the 8 to 5 o'clock position.
I'll be looking into changing the angle it's mounted at on the tranny shift rod. Will post what I come up with.

Took some neighbor's for a ride today, they all liked it which is good as our HOA has too many Prius owners.

[JOP33]

I've got some concerns about the manual brakes and the Lokar shifter.
No matter how hard I jump on the brake pedal I can't lock them up. Different pads maybe?

Jim - Have you Bed the brakes yet? I have not go-carted yet, but everything I have read and heard is that this is an important process for them to respond properly...my $0.02.

[JimLev]

Not yet, only have driven it 2 miles up and down my street and a dead end street off mine.
Being so light I would have expected much better stopping power, heck I was only going 30.

[NAZ]

Bed the brakes before making any decisions on changes to the braking system.

[HVACMAN]

Bed the brakes before making any decisions on changes to the braking system.

What brakes are you using front and rear?

[JimLev]

The standard Ford calipers and rotors that came with the kit. Think the pads were StopTech.
There's a pic of the calipers in post 141.
I'm on my way to NC so this is from memory.
When I get a chance I'll bed the brakes.

[HVACMAN]

Jim, I was looking at one of your older posts and you have your master cylinders labeled front and rear. You have the front on the outboard side of the pedal box and the rear on the inboard. Is this correct? If so I need to swap mine. I would think this would affect the bias adjustment.

[JimLev]

I don't think the physical position of the master cylinders matters as long as they are plumbed to the correct position and the bore size is correct.
I think the bias can be adjusted either way. Let me know if I'm wrong.

[JimLev]

After too much traveling I finally got back into the garage. One trip was back to Wareham for a high school reunion which meant a stop at FFR was mandatory. Bought a few small things for the car.
I now have all of the interior insulation on the floors and back panel.
Next was to move the battery, as it's recommended location would be a PITA to get at when it needed to be changed.
I boxed in a location below the upper trunk floor with a hinged lexan cover so it is easily accessible. Will add the sides of the box after I use a neighbors brake to make the bends (he's building a 36 Ford w/an LS engine).

DSCN2530.JPG

DSCN2534.JPG

Hope to finish up the sheet metal for the trunk tomorrow and then run stereo and alarm wires this weekend.

[JOP33]

After too much traveling I finally got back into the garage. One trip was back to Wareham for a high school reunion which meant a stop at FFR was mandatory. Bought a few small things for the car.
I now have all of the interior insulation on the floors and back panel.
Next was to move the battery, as it's recommended location would be a PITA to get at when it needed to be changed.
I boxed in a location below the upper trunk floor with a hinged lexan cover so it is easily accessible. Will add the sides of the box after I use a neighbors brake to make the bends (he's building a 36 Ford w/an LS engine).

DSCN2530.JPG

DSCN2534.JPG

Hope to finish up the sheet metal for the trunk tomorrow and then run stereo and alarm wires this weekend.

Nice set-up on the battery!

[JimLev]

Thanks JOP.
I used my neighbors Baileigh magnetic sheet metal brake to make the sides of the battery box, nice tool!
I used self etching primer and then painted the all sides, then used Fat Mat to keep some of the heat away from the battery.
This "one day" project turned into a 3 day job. The top frame cutouts and painting slowed me down.

DSCN2542.JPG

DSCN2543.JPG

DSCN2545.JPG

[AJT '33]

Thanks JOP.
I used my neighbors Baileigh magnetic sheet metal brake to make the sides of the battery box, nice tool!
I used self etching primer and then painted the all sides, then used Fat Mat to keep some of the heat away from the battery.
This "one day" project turned into a 3 day job. The top frame cutouts and painting slowed me down.

DSCN2545.JPG

Hey Jim, noticed you ran your exhausts inboard instead of outboard, any reason why?
20180522_111638.jpg

[JimLev]

Hey Jim, noticed you ran your exhausts inboard instead of outboard, any reason why?
20180522_111638.jpg

That was months ago, I originally had it the way you did it but then changed it because (I think) there was a little more room the way I have it now.

Question for you guys, how's the heat on the floor above the mufflers?
I have insulation on both sides of the floor but after 10 min of driving the chassis around the floor is so hot you can't leave your hand on the floor insulation for more than 3-4 seconds.
I'm going to add a metal shield between the muffler and the floor.

[JOP33]

That was months ago, I originally had it the way you did it but then changed it because (I think) there was a little more room the way I have it now.

Question for you guys, how's the heat on the floor above the mufflers?
I have insulation on both sides of the floor but after 10 min of driving the chassis around the floor is so hot you can't leave your hand on the floor insulation for more than 3-4 seconds.
I'm going to add a metal shield between the muffler and the floor.

You may want to try wrapping the muffler as well, if you haven't already.

[OnlyAndy]

I am not nearly as far along on my 33' as you but I have been reading,,, and Reading,,, and put a patch of self adhesive alum/fiberglass heat barrier underside of alum floor pan right above muffler. Then I will do the interior insulation etc when I get that far. THEN I also bought a Flowmaster 75 alum muffler heat shield kit. It is way longer that the F5 muffler and has 4 SS mounting bands included. If I cut it in half I believe I can cover nearly all of each muffler. I DON'T know yet if I will have interference between the bottom of chassis and the shield. Plan is to get on the exhaust system today so I may know if I made a good choice or not.... soon.

[AJT '33]

I am not nearly as far along on my 33' as you but I have been reading,,, and Reading,,, and put a patch of self adhesive alum/fiberglass heat barrier underside of alum floor pan right above muffler. Then I will do the interior insulation etc when I get that far. THEN I also bought a Flowmaster 75 alum muffler heat shield kit. It is way longer that the F5 muffler and has 4 SS mounting bands included. If I cut it in half I believe I can cover nearly all of each muffler. I DON'T know yet if I will have interference between the bottom of chassis and the shield. Plan is to get on the exhaust system today so I may know if I made a good choice or not.... soon.

Sounds like what I have done so far as well.
20180519_220519.jpg

[OnlyAndy]

I have been on the exhaust install all am and the short passenger down pipe to the "S" pipe won't fit. Angle is off, needs to drop about 1/2" for flanges to meet up properly. Tried playing with engine mounts and adding extra gaskets at pipe header flange but can't get it. F5 tech says to send pics....maybe next monday... too frustrated right now. Driver side looks fine. My original comment about the "alum shield",,, should have said flowmaster "70", not 75. I'm sure it will be very close, no answer this week.

[JimLev]

OnlyAndy, installing the exhaust was a major pain, how did you make out?
I haven't done much of anything to my 33 in the last 2 weeks, was on vacation and now with Thanksgiving a few days away not much is going to get done until next week. I still haven't addressed the heat shields for the mufflers, that's next on the list. I do have some wrap left over from when I wrapped all the pipes, I should probably wrap them and use that Flowmaster 70 shielding.
I did manage to install a larger 2.6" diameter pulley for my alternator. It came with a 2" one that would have spun the alt at 24K RPM at the 6600 redline. The specs say to not go above 18K RPM.

[OnlyAndy]

Well, here is what I did and it worked but I didn't like it. The two "S" pipes are the same, F5 confirmed that too me. Lay them side by side in same orientation the lengths, angles and bends match. BUT they go in car as a left,,, and a right. So the flange angle sends one pipe up and the other down. In My case the driver side went down and that was what I wanted. The passenger side.... I needed about 1/4" pie cut to make angles match so cut out that 1/4 leaving a small hinge of metal at top, closed the gap and had a local shop re tig weld. Now both pipes have same angle and its not perfect but close. Another thing I did was mark each "S" pipe were it went through chassis and put them in my arbor press and "flattened" them out, just a little bit. You won't lose pipe volume but you will gain clearance and I DID. It worked very well and you could not tell unless you really looked at them. Oh, and F5 agreed with all my "Fixes", I wanted their blessing before I messed expensive parts up. They also told me the NEW 33' ( or 32" ? ) chassis is modified and the "S" pipe will likely have a ball connection not a flange.

[JimLev]

Good to hear you got it connected. I spent days trying to figure out how to install everything and then connect it to the BBK headers I bought.
Test fit everything, take it apart, etc.
I didn't use the exhaust manifold that F5 sent. I ended up using the side exhaust J pipes to make up a new piece to connect the headers and the S pipe that goes to the muffler.
I should have flattened them too but didn't.
I did wrap all the pipes to lower the radiated heat and to prevent any vibrations if they did happen to hit the frame.
Last night I ordered DEI muffler shielding and more exhaust wrap. Should be here on Wed.
I'm going to wrap the mufflers and put the shielding on them. With the floors already riveted in I'll have to pull the mufflers from under the car (no lift), I don't want to have to do it twice. With both products on the floor should stay a lot cooler.

Ball sockets would have make connection and aligning easier.

DSCN2150.JPG

DSCN2151.JPG

[OnlyAndy]

I forgot to mention. The Flowmaster 70 series alum muffler heat shield.... Cut it in half and it covers most of the muffler very well. There will be two SS straps on each to hold them on,,, So, I think its a go.... I won't know for some time if it actually helps with the heat issue, but fits and looks pretty good.

[JimLev]

I ended up buying the DEI muffler insulation, its got a layer of fiberglass insulation and a top layer of dimpled aluminum.
I bought one piece 24" x 42" and cut it in half.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I first used some 2" exhaust pipe wrap to cover the body of the muffler.

DSCN2563.JPG

Next was to use the DEI to completely cover the muffler.

DSCN2565.JPG

DSCN2566.JPG

Just finished installing the mufflers back on the car.
Tomorrow I'll check to see how much cooler the floor boards are.