FormaCars

Visit our community sponsor

Thanks Thanks:  2
Likes Likes:  0
Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: Intermittant no crank. Gen 2 crate motor.

  1. #1
    Senior Member Misterfubar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Olathe, KS
    Posts
    129
    Post Thanks / Like

    Intermittant no crank. Gen 2 crate motor.

    Gen 2 Coyote crate motor with M-6017-504V control pack in a Roadster.

    Wired per FFR/Ford Performance instructions using the FFR keyed ignition switch.

    Key to Run fuel pump relay clicks, fuel pump energizes, check engine light briefly flashes.

    Key to Start. Sometimes it will crank for 7 seconds or so, sometimes it won't. I haven't been able to figure out what the difference is and what changed between the times it will crank and the times it won't.

    I've checked the ignition switch, both clutch switches, swapped relays around, checked fuses. Pedal works and moves the Everything is well grounded. Big ground strap from engine to frame. Battery is connected directly to the engine and frame. All the Control pack grounds are connected to tested ground points on the frame with great continuity to the negative battery post.

    Last night it was cranking over fine so I thought I'd go ahead and hang my sidepipes, throw some fuel in the tank and attempt the first start. Hung the side pipes touching nothing else and got in to test crank it and nothing. Jumped the solenoid at the starter and it would crank over so I know the starter isn't locked up.

    Came home from work tonight and it cranked over. Cleaned up my workbench, ate some dinner, came back out and no crank. Waited an hour or two and still no crank.

    What am I missing? What else in the PCM will cause it to not crank?

  2. #2
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Lake Orion, Michigan
    Posts
    10,773
    Post Thanks / Like
    It's a pretty short list to check. At least for things you have control over. Going to assume you have full battery power and ground to the PDB. Sounds like you do. Although intermittent issues are very often ground related. So I'd sure check all those closely.

    - The only clutch switch that affects the start is the bottom one. Check adjustment, connections, off/on continuity of the switch itself. Would not recommend as a permanent change, but you could jumper the switch (or wires) so the connection is closed all the time to see if that changes anything.

    - Light Green Ignition Relay Trigger wire in the Coyote pigtail must have +12V at all times (starting and running) with the key on. Typically connected to an ignition controlled +12V wire in the RF harness, e.g. the Orange EFI/Coil wire, or the electric choke wire. The fact that your fuel pump is energizing means the PCM is seeing this +12V. I assume the fuel pump, throttle body, etc. have never been intermittent? If so, probably not the problem. But something to check. Put a VOM on the wire when it won't start and check to make sure there's +12V with the key on.

    - Light Blue Starter Motor Request (SMR) wire in the Coyote pigtail must have +12V whenever the key is turned to the start position. Typically connected to the blue EFI crank wire in the RF harness. Put a VOM on the wire when it won't start and check to make sure there's +12V with the key in the start position. Could be the ignition switch itself.

    - If all the above checks OK, I'd put a VOM on the small terminal of the starter solenoid, where I assume you have the Coyote harness start wire attached. Check to make sure there's +12V when the key is in the start position. If no voltage, and the other items check OK, then it's a relay or fuse in the PDB. Or something in the PDB or PCM that's defective. You stated the starter runs when powered directly, which suggests the starter is OK.

    Good luck. If all the above check OK, I'd call the Ford Performance help desk. One guy there (Ray) is their electrical expert. He'll probably ask about these same items. Then see where it goes.
    Last edited by edwardb; 07-08-2019 at 08:30 PM.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

  3. Thanks Misterfubar thanked for this post
  4. #3
    Senior Member Misterfubar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Olathe, KS
    Posts
    129
    Post Thanks / Like
    I've jumpered the bottom clutch switch with no change. The switches are removed and hanging there right now so I could test/play with them.

    When it isn't working, I don't get voltage at the at the solenoid. When it is I do. Everything appears to be working exactly as it is supposed to... except when it doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by edwardb View Post

    Good luck. If all the above check OK, I'd call the Ford Performance help desk. One guy there (Ray) is their electrical expert. He'll probably ask about these same items. Then see where it goes.
    I think this is where I'm at. I just haven't had the time to call them since their hours are the same as mine.

    I just went out to check it again and no crank. Plugged my scanner in to check if there were any codes. No codes, no crank. Sat there a few minutes reading something and touched absolutely nothing and made no changes. Decided to try one more time before I got out and it cranked over.

  5. #4
    Senior Member Misterfubar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Olathe, KS
    Posts
    129
    Post Thanks / Like
    Now it will crank with the bottom clutch switch disconnected and not jumped. Something definitely isn't right.

  6. #5
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Lake Orion, Michigan
    Posts
    10,773
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Misterfubar View Post
    Now it will crank with the bottom clutch switch disconnected and not jumped. Something definitely isn't right.
    For sure. Something isn't right. I've never heard of the Coyote start sequence initiated without the bottom clutch switch. Don't want to insult (sorry if it is) but have to ask just to confirm. By "bottom clutch switch" we're talking about the one that's activated when you push the clutch all the way down? And the switch you have wired there is the one that came with the Coyote control pack and it's connected to the bottom clutch switch wires from the Coyote harness? Just want to confirm the RF clutch switch and blue wires aren't being used. That wire, in fact, can be completely removed. You don't want any interlocking function from the RF harness with a Coyote installation. The only one you need is the blue EFI crank wire directly off the ignition switch.

    The only other thing I noticed after re-reading your first post is Ford is pretty adamant about home running the PDB ground directly to the battery. I know they do that to eliminate variation in installations, and with the tube steel frames in these builds, a solid frame ground at the battery should give a good ground everywhere else. But for the two I've done, I did run a physical ground wire from the PDB to the battery. I suspect that wouldn't make a difference, but wouldn't hurt. Probably Ford will ask about that.

    You must have an earlier Coyote control pack. They eliminated the top clutch switch on later versions. It's not in play at this point though.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

  7. Thanks Misterfubar thanked for this post
  8. #6
    Senior Member Misterfubar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Olathe, KS
    Posts
    129
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by edwardb View Post
    For sure. Something isn't right. I've never heard of the Coyote start sequence initiated without the bottom clutch switch. Don't want to insult (sorry if it is) but have to ask just to confirm. By "bottom clutch switch" we're talking about the one that's activated when you push the clutch all the way down? And the switch you have wired there is the one that came with the Coyote control pack and it's connected to the bottom clutch switch wires from the Coyote harness? Just want to confirm the RF clutch switch and blue wires aren't being used. That wire, in fact, can be completely removed. You don't want any interlocking function from the RF harness with a Coyote installation. The only one you need is the blue EFI crank wire directly off the ignition switch.

    The only other thing I noticed after re-reading your first post is Ford is pretty adamant about home running the PDB ground directly to the battery. I know they do that to eliminate variation in installations, and with the tube steel frames in these builds, a solid frame ground at the battery should give a good ground everywhere else. But for the two I've done, I did run a physical ground wire from the PDB to the battery. I suspect that wouldn't make a difference, but wouldn't hurt. Probably Ford will ask about that.

    You must have an earlier Coyote control pack. They eliminated the top clutch switch on later versions. It's not in play at this point though.

    It's a Gen II Coyote control pack, PN FMS-M-6017-504V. But looking at that PN now it does look like they eliminated the second clutch switch. Mine is a little over 2 years old. I am talking about the bottom clutch switch(that is actually installed on top) "CBT" in the install manual and wiring diagrams. The one that is activated when you push the clutch all the way down. It is plugged directly into the control pack harness and the RF CSS wires were removed.

    I know they are pretty adamant about running the PDB to the battery, but I've checked out my grounds with a Megger 4 wire low resistance ohmmeter and they are reading in the microohm range so I'm confident they are good. I have also connected the PDB ground direct to battery and it hasn't made a difference in the testing. Sometimes it'll crank, sometimes it won't. Sometimes it will crank without pushing the clutch in.

    Played with it a little more tonight and nothing I did seemed to effect the randomness of the no crank condition. I can't be anywhere near my car during business hours anytime soon, but I think I'll call Ford anyway with my notes. Maybe it'll be a simple fix.

    Thank you for the help. I'm mostly just verifying that I'm not missing anything before I call Ford.

    Also, the instructions say the MIL will stay illuminated anytime the ignition is on and the engine is not running, mine does not do this. It flashes when you first turn the ignition on and does not come on again until you go all the way off and then back to on.

  9. #7
    David aka Ducky2009 Ducky2009's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Lilburn, GA
    Posts
    786
    Post Thanks / Like
    Do you have your MAF sensor installed?
    MK4 Build #9035 Delivered 2/17/17, First Start & Go-Kart 6/2/17, Licensed 9/1/17
    Paint - Lightning Blue Metallic, No Hood Scoop, No Stripes
    Gen 2 Coyote Engine & TKO-600. Solid Axle, 8.8-3.55, Power Steering, Power Brakes, Dual Roll Bars
    Heater and Glove Box, Drop Trunk, Wipers, Radio, FFR Vintage Gauges, Custom Dash
    Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...MK4-Build-9035

  10. #8
    Senior Member Misterfubar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Olathe, KS
    Posts
    129
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Ducky2009 View Post
    Do you have your MAF sensor installed?
    Yes. Everything is installed and plugged in. Should be ready to fire up once I add fuel.

  11. #9
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Lake Orion, Michigan
    Posts
    10,773
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Misterfubar View Post
    It's a Gen II Coyote control pack, PN FMS-M-6017-504V. But looking at that PN now it does look like they eliminated the second clutch switch. Mine is a little over 2 years old. I am talking about the bottom clutch switch(that is actually installed on top) "CBT" in the install manual and wiring diagrams. The one that is activated when you push the clutch all the way down. It is plugged directly into the control pack harness and the RF CSS wires were removed.

    I know they are pretty adamant about running the PDB to the battery, but I've checked out my grounds with a Megger 4 wire low resistance ohmmeter and they are reading in the microohm range so I'm confident they are good. I have also connected the PDB ground direct to battery and it hasn't made a difference in the testing. Sometimes it'll crank, sometimes it won't. Sometimes it will crank without pushing the clutch in.

    Played with it a little more tonight and nothing I did seemed to effect the randomness of the no crank condition. I can't be anywhere near my car during business hours anytime soon, but I think I'll call Ford anyway with my notes. Maybe it'll be a simple fix.

    Thank you for the help. I'm mostly just verifying that I'm not missing anything before I call Ford.

    Also, the instructions say the MIL will stay illuminated anytime the ignition is on and the engine is not running, mine does not do this. It flashes when you first turn the ignition on and does not come on again until you go all the way off and then back to on.
    Sounds like you have everything covered. I should have said earlier Gen 2 control packs (I have that vintage too) had two switches, later ones eliminated the top clutch switch. Several builds on here have struggled with no start conditions until they got everything sorted out. But I've never heard of one cranking without the CBT switch being activated. With everything else eliminated, that to me is a big red flat that something has failed. Will be interested to hear what Ford has to say. Don't know if you've called them before, but don't let them off the hook with an easy answer. Sometimes you get a stock answer that doesn't deep dive into the problem.

    The MIL behavior you're seeing is exactly what I've seen, plus others. The instructions are incorrect. It flashes when the key is first turned on, but it's quick and that's it. At some point, you'll probably want to test that it's working correctly by introducing a known fault and confirming that it turns on. Then turn back off with your code reader. Then hopefully you'll never see it again. My Gen 2 MIL hasn't lit for almost 3 years now. I check it occasionally with a scanner and it always shows zero codes.

    Good luck. Hope it's nothing too bad and gets quickly resolved. It's an awesome running setup. Just need to get past this.
    Last edited by edwardb; 07-09-2019 at 05:51 AM.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

  12. #10
    Senior Member Misterfubar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Olathe, KS
    Posts
    129
    Post Thanks / Like
    Talked to Ford today. He said I shouldn't be trying to crank it without fuel and there is a starter protect circuit in the ECU that can keep it from cranking. He couldn't explain why sometimes it wouldn't crank, and sometimes it would. I wasn't exactly happy with that answer but I left work early and...

    I said what the hell and picked up 5 gallons of gas and she fired right up. I started it probably 25 times over the course of the afternoon and it never failed to crank. Ran it up to temp. Fixed 2 very minor seeps, 1 fuel at the regulator and 1 coolant at the heater core. Go-karted around the block a few times even though I told myself I wasn't going to do that

    It WILL start without the pushing the clutch in. Disconnected the clutch switch and it will still start. Verified the #1 pin a the bottom clutch switch wasn't shorted to ground and had good continuity to the ECM. Going to call them back tomorrow. I also got a MIL and a P0116 code on the second or third start. It cleared and didn't come back, but I remember reading about some issues with the ECMs needed to be flashed to fix that particular code. We'll see if it comes back.


    On the plus side. It fired right up and ran like a clock. Only leaks were very minor. Oil pressure was good. Fan kicked on when it should. Power steering worked great. Brakes were nice and firm and actually stopped the car. It clears the curb to my driveway without a problem. I could probably keep going for an hour with everything that worked right...

    Are Speedhut tachs always a little jerky? Or did I get a defective one? It's accurate and matches what the ECM is reporting but doesn't exactly react quickly and it a little jumpy. My clock is also INOP. Lights work, but the hands have never moved.

  13. #11
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Lake Orion, Michigan
    Posts
    10,773
    Post Thanks / Like
    Congrats! Sort of I guess. Still concerning it will start without the bottom clutch switch. Mine sure won't. I've never heard of a protect circuit without fuel, and I've cranked some without fuel early in the build. But not much so maybe never ran into it. Yes, the tach is maybe very slightly jumpy but not bad in my experience. Hard to know if yours is any different. In this application, it's indicating on only one pulse every other revolution. Other calibrations would have more signals. Maybe that makes a difference, I don't know. Speedhut clock issues are unfortunately all too common. But you might want to verify your wiring. Lights and actual power for the clock movement are different wires. And that P0116 is a false positive and requires a reflash. Probably will show up again.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

  14. #12
    Senior Member Misterfubar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Olathe, KS
    Posts
    129
    Post Thanks / Like
    Double checked the clock with a power supply on the bench. Doesn't work and won't respond to the button. Not sure if I'll even bother with a replacement, but I might put a oil temp gauge in the hole, I'm not prepared to redo my whole dash at this point. Need to move forward on this project.

    We'll see what Ford says tomorrow about the clutch switch. Definitely don't want it not functioning, and I don't think I should have to wire back in a neutral safety switch.

  15. #13
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Lake Orion, Michigan
    Posts
    10,773
    Post Thanks / Like
    Was going to shoot a quick video of my tach so you could see how it works compared to yours. But then remembered I had some shots of it during my first start videos. Check this one. Tach comes into view around :45. BTW, the yellow light on the dash is a fan running indicator. You can hear the fan start early in the video. The engine was already warm from previous starts.

    https://youtu.be/MGiRDLwrwrU
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

  16. #14
    Senior Member Misterfubar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Olathe, KS
    Posts
    129
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by edwardb View Post
    Was going to shoot a quick video of my tach so you could see how it works compared to yours. But then remembered I had some shots of it during my first start videos. Check this one. Tach comes into view around :45. BTW, the yellow light on the dash is a fan running indicator. You can hear the fan start early in the video. The engine was already warm from previous starts.

    https://youtu.be/MGiRDLwrwrU
    Awesome. Thank you. Mine seems like it might be just slightly jerkier than that, but glad to see it is fairly normal.

  17. #15
    Senior Member Misterfubar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Olathe, KS
    Posts
    129
    Post Thanks / Like
    Shipping the ECM back to Ford to flash it for the P0116 MIL and sending engineering an email regarding the clutch switch. Phone call was a little more productive today.

  18. #16
    Senior Member Misterfubar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Olathe, KS
    Posts
    129
    Post Thanks / Like
    Came back from a few weeks of training and the flashed ECM was waiting for me. Whatever they did seems to have fixed the clutch switch not working properly. I started it probably a dozen times over a few hours and it would not crank without pressing the clutch. Now to finish up the turn signal wiring so I can start buttoning everything else up and move on to the body.

  19. #17
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    San Francisco Bay Area, CA
    Posts
    84
    Post Thanks / Like
    My coyote start functioned perfectly for months, then the car sat at paint shop and garage for a few months while finishing off a few projects. Today I started and got a P0116 code (I had 150 miles with no code on it) and right after I noticed the starter functioning even if clutch is not fully pressed. Very similar to what you had. Has the problem come back at all? I wonder why all of a sudden this changed. I checked all the basics, the switch functions normally, connectors are pretty solid, it is adjusted for the end of the clutch travel correctly. Strange...
    MKIV complete kit #8523, IRS, Coyote Engine, TKO 600, 3.55 rear end, PS, and a whole lot more! Graduated in May 2021.

  20. #18
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Lake Orion, Michigan
    Posts
    10,773
    Post Thanks / Like
    As I just posted on the other forum. P0116 is a false positive that happened with early Gen 2's. I had it along with others. Your PCM needs a reflash to fix it. Not related to your start problem.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Martin's Dent and Collision Shop

Visit our community sponsor